How the Gospel Works

[Nang]

Can man cause anything outside the will of GOD?

The first man caused sin and death. Romans 5:12

Adam was created and gifted with (secondary) causal agency and ability to effect. However, God also gave moral parameters to be kept in so doing.

Adam abused his gift and used this agency in disobedience and disregard to those parameters.

Who do you say is sovereign of the wicked of the world?

God Almighty.

Why don't you believe Him when He says He will do that for national Israel?

All the promises God gave to/through national Israel have been kept and fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

 

[Nang]

If Adam was saved before he had any children, why would his headship be for the unsaved?

Do you know that Adam was saved? Or when?

Scripture, please . . .

 

[Tambora]

Do you know that Adam was saved? Or when?

Scripture, please . . .

You said you didn't know if he was saved or not.

So I asked IF he was saved before he had any children, would his saved headship still be the headship of all of his unsaved descendants?
Or would Adam being saved make no difference as to whom his headship is over?

 

[Tambora]

The Reformed view is very careful to balance human accountability with divine Sovereignty.

Why would you switch from accountability to Sovereignty?

 

[Nang]

You said you didn't know if he was saved or not.

So I asked IF he was saved before he had any children, would his saved headship still be the headship of all of his unsaved descendants?
Or would Adam being saved make no difference as to whom his headship is over?

Adam was not saved when God imputed his guilt to all his offspring. Romans 5:18-19

And thereafter (even if Adam was saved by grace later) it required the last Adam, Jesus Christ, to undo the universal condemnation caused by the fall.

 

[Nang]

Why would you switch from accountability to Sovereignty?

Switch?

I don't switch between these two truths; I balance them by considering both to be relevant to the Gospel Truth.

Man was created morally and legally accountable to Sovereign God.

Because of the fall, man cannot meet his moral or legal responsibilities to Sovereign God.

Sovereign God remedied the dilemma through the Incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; doing for sinners what they could never do for themselves because of their enslavement to sin, death, and the devil.

 

[musterion]

Lon,

You can hate that excuse all you want -- and it IS an excuse -- but the slandering of God provided by Calvinism gave them that excuse.

 

[Lon]

Lon,

You can hate that excuse all you want -- and it IS an excuse -- but the slandering of God provided by Calvinism gave them that excuse.

No, I'm not one that would ever say so/agree it is just an excuse. "How do YOU know you aren't one of His? Your responsibility is to listen." He/she cannot blame God for their response, it is their response. No Calvinist I know of will allow that excuse. Hebrews 3:15 "If" may not be Calvinistic to him (or you). Such is not the concern. Rather how I see this is Calvinistic, but I'd use it regardless of how one takes it. I argue with sinners, the same way you do: Be reconciled to God! 2 Corinthians 5:20

Yes indeed...many people (like some right here on TOL) who hear nothing about God except what the Reformed have mischaracterized for centuries, and so resent Him for something He hasn't even done and so are immunized against the saving Gospel by sanctified ecclesiarchichal blasphemy.

Now my having said that, some Calvinist will think, "Yeah? So? If they're elect they'll get zapped awake eventually, but they're probably reprobates anyway." I'd like to think that's not your heart.

Disagree. Those on TOL aren't mad at God as anything regarding Calvinism and most know very well there are few Calvinists. The 'reason' people give for not believing is not the real reason. John 3:18-21 John 15:22 Romans 1:32 2 Thessalonians 2:12 God is about the business of saving. If we don't preach, rocks will cry out. Nobody, not even a Calvinist can stop Him from His mission. 2 Peter 3:9 Luke 19:40 No systematic theology can ever keep anyone away from God, you and I but water 1 Corinthians 3:7 Be encouraged!

 

[glorydaz]

The first man caused sin and death. Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Why do you have to change what scripture says? You like to play fast and lose with it, don't you?

Adam was created and gifted with (secondary) causal agency and ability to effect. However, God also gave moral parameters to be kept in so doing.

Adam abused his gift and used this agency in disobedience and disregard to those parameters.

Wow, that's a whopping job at Bible extrapolation! :dead:

 

[Nang]

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Why do you have to change what scripture says? You like to play fast and lose with it, don't you?

Nonsense . . you are just in denial of the Truth.

 

[musterion]

No, I'm not one that would ever say so/agree it is just an excuse. "How do YOU know you aren't one of His? Your responsibility is to listen."

Okay, let's chase that rabbit.

"Wait a minute. WHY would I WANT to even listen to a God like that? WHY would I WANT to try to find out when He clearly lies about who He wants to save and who He doesn't? I don't WANT to belong to a God like that. Why would YOU want to?"

That conversation is the direct result of Calvinism's blasphemy of God.

Your response to that person would be...?

 

[Tambora]

Adam was not saved when God imputed his guilt to all his offspring. Romans 5:18-19

Was Adam elect or non-elect before he fell?

And thereafter (even if Adam was saved by grace later) it required the last Adam, Jesus Christ, to undo the universal condemnation caused by the fall.

What had GOD revealed that Adam would have to believe in his lifetime to be saved?

 

[Tambora]

Switch?

Yeah, here ..

The Reformed view is very careful to balance human accountability with divine Sovereignty

Was wondering why you didn't say it as .... to balance human accountability with divine accountability.
Or .... to balance human sovereignty with divine sovereignty.

No biggie.

Man was created morally and legally accountable to Sovereign God.

Adam wasn't, until the command came.
Then he was.
The command came after he was created and Eve (from his body).
Where there is no law, there is no sin.

Because of the fall, man cannot meet his moral or legal responsibilities to Sovereign God.

Are we not saved the same way Adam could have been saved?
Or is there something different about the way we can be saved and the way Adam could be saved?

 

[Tambora]

Wow, that's a whopping job at Bible extrapolation! :dead:

Yep.
When folks start talking like that is when the crowd usually scratches their head and walks away seeking someone that can communicate well in an understandable way.

 

[Nang]

Was Adam elect or non-elect before he fell?

I don't know. Do you?

What had GOD revealed that Adam would have to believe in his lifetime to be saved?

Genesis 2:15-17

 

[Nang]

Are we not saved the same way Adam could have been saved?
Or is there something different about the way we can be saved and the way Adam could be saved?

Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, according to the Word of God alone . . to the glory of God alone.

 

[God's Truth]

Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, according to the Word of God alone . . to the glory of God alone.

Jesus is the Way and he tells us what we have to do to get saved.

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

John 8:31 [ Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are ] NET Bible
Then Jesus said to those Judeans who had believed him, "If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples

John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

1 John 2:3 And by this we may know that we know Him--if we obey His commands.

 

[Tambora]

Genesis 2:15-17

AFTER he fell, what was it Adam needed to believe to be saved?

 

[patrick jane]

Yeah, here ..

Was wondering why you didn't say it as .... to balance human accountability with divine accountability.
Or .... to balance human sovereignty with divine sovereignty.

No biggie.


Adam wasn't, until the command came.
Then he was.
The command came after he was created and Eve (from his body).
Where there is no law, there is no sin.

Are we not saved the same way Adam could have been saved?
Or is there something different about the way we can be saved and the way Adam could be saved?

Nang can't answer that last question

 

[Tambora]

Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, according to the Word of God alone . . to the glory of God alone.

Was that info available in Adam's lifetime to believe in?