How many people actually caught measles from the vaccination?

[elohiym]

Its actually right on point and an accurate observation. Babies are born with very week immune systems ...

Shifting the goal posts. Don't try to develop his vague generalization about children into a specific point about babies I haven't disputed.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Shifting the goal posts. Don't try to develop his vague generalization about children into a specific point about babies I haven't disputed.

What you call a "vague generalization" is actually a well established medical fact.

 

[elohiym]

A measles infection is characterized by ...

It is characterized primarily by infection with any strain of measles virus.

If a person does not display all of the symptoms they do not have measles.

Infection with wild measles virus can be asymptomatic, so you are mistaken.

Given that those are the symptoms of the common cold, how do you tell the difference?

A person with measles will have an infection with a strain of measles virus and test positive for antibodies; the person without measles infection will not.

 

[elohiym]

What you call a "vague generalization" is actually a well established medical fact.

It is not a "well established medical fact" that children in general "don't have healthy vigorous immune systems." That was a vague generalization. You posted something about babies.

 

[CabinetMaker]

An infection of what exactly?

It is a general, non-specific infection based on the symptoms one develops. In other words, if one does not develop the specific symptoms of measles, one does not have a measles infection.

I have claimed that vaccinating a person with a live attenuated measles virus gives that person an infection of live attenuated measles virus. That is true. You're analogy fails.

This is the first time you have directly claimed that specific qualifier. You have maintained that people who get vaccinated develop a measles infection leading those who read your post to the inference that they develop full blown measles in all cases.

Where have I claimed an imminent threat? I explained that you intentionally got infected with one strain of measles to prevent what you were led to believe would be a more dangerous measles infection from the wild strain. Characterizing that claim as deceptive and evil is deceptive and evil or you.

By inferring that people who get a measles shot will get a measles infection. Aside from the response immediately above, you have made attempt to explain the difference between an attenuated virus and a wild virus. You claimed several times that I allowed my daughters to be infected with measles. You play with and twist the meaning of words to spread fear, not knowledge.

I worked side-by-side with doctors for several years in the military. They understood the idea of measles vaccination is to get a mild measles infection to avoid a severe measles infection. You seem frightened by that idea, so much so that you refuse to believe that is what you consented to--a low grade measles infection.

As noted above, if a person does not develop the specific symptoms associated with measles, they have not had a measles infection. It is my contention that a measles vaccination with attenuated virus and measles infection due to a wild virus are not the same thing and that people need to understand the difference. You see no difference and, accordingly, spread fear.

 

[CabinetMaker]

It is not a "well established medical fact" that children in general "don't have healthy vigorous immune systems." That was a vague generalization. You posted something about babies.

Birth to kindergarten and 1st grade. Babies to young children have a healthy albeit week immune system. Starting in kindergarten the immune system of kids, and their parents, get put to serious work whereupon the immune system will be greatly strengthened.

 

[CabinetMaker]

It is characterized primarily by infection with any strain of measles virus.



Infection with wild measles virus can be asymptomatic, so you are mistaken.



A person with measles will have an infection with a strain of measles virus and test positive for antibodies; the person without measles infection will not.

And your fear mongering continues. You never did answer once simple question: does the measles vaccine protect people from getting full blown measles?

 

[Zeke]

a healthy vigorous immune system is the best defense against most diseases

guess what?

there's a lot of people who don't have healthy vigorous immune systems, for many reasons

children, for example


back in the day, lots of them died, from complications from birth or in infancy


go to an old cemetery - there's one near where i live, has my great great great great grandfather and and his wives buried there - around their big headstone are a whole lot of little ones - children that died before adulthood. Lost in the grass are a dozen or so little flat markers with nothing but the date - apparently infant mortality was so common that they wouldn't christen a child until its first birthday

Certainly a factor among the lower classes living in adverse conditions in any age, who lack the ability to live in a habitat that could sustain them, or they weren't knowledgeable enough about the one they were in, Mother nature is still best if you haven't been to civilized to realize it.

Many who had the knowledge survived and flourished where others perished, many die in the wilderness yet there is food all around them if they have been taught.

 

[elohiym]

It causes a low grade infection...

An infection of what exactly?

It is a general, non-specific infection based on the symptoms one develops. In other words, if one does not develop the specific symptoms of measles, one does not have a measles infection.

Are you just going to make stuff up to avoid conceding that the live attenuated measles virus causes a viral infection? This is getting ridiculous.

I was just reading this study published back in 1964. Back then they didn't shy away from claiming they were using the vaccine to give people a measles infection; they also described childhood measles mortality in the U.S. as low without vaccination.

"Moreover, children infected with attenuated measles virus ..."​

See? Scientists describe the vaccination as infecting children with attenuated measles virus. It's a measles infection, just as I've claim.

Are you still going to pretend I haven't proved my claim?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Are you just going to make stuff up to avoid conceding that the live attenuated measles virus causes a viral infection? This is getting ridiculous.

Until you consistantly draw the distinction between a vaccination and a measles infection, no. I will not help you mislead people into thinking that vaccinations are bad and should be avoided.

I was just reading this study published back in 1964. Back then they didn't shy away from claiming they were using the vaccine to give people a measles infection; they also described childhood measles mortality in the U.S. as low without vaccination.

"Moreover, children infected with attenuated measles virus ..."​

See? Scientists describe the vaccination as infecting children with attenuated measles virus. It's a measles infection, just as I've claim.

Are you still going to pretend I haven't proved my claim?

Note that the doctors specifically said, "attenuated virus." They understand the difference between the attenuated virus and the wild virus and what each for does to and for the immune system. You consistently try to muddy the waters to scare people away from vaccination. You are unwilling to honestly discuss vaccination with people.

 

[elohiym]

And your fear mongering continues.

You are the one using fear to promote vaccines. I have argued measles isn't a scary disease and doesn't warrant mass vaccination or forced vaccination.

You never did answer once simple question: does the measles vaccine protect people from getting full blown measles?

Define "full blown measles."

Any measles infection, whether you get it from a vaccine or from the the wild is believed to give a person immunity to a future infection with any other strain of measles. I haven't disputed that.

 

[elohiym]

Until you consistantly draw the distinction between a vaccination and a measles infection, no.

It is an infection with a live attenuated measles virus.

I will not help you mislead people into thinking that vaccinations are bad and should be avoided.

Rather, you will not let yourself be embarrassed for making so many false statements about how a live attenuated virus vaccine works.

Note that the doctors specifically said, "attenuated virus." They understand the difference between the attenuated virus and the wild virus and what each for does to and for the immune system.

Note that I have been specifically saying "attenuated virus." I have explained the difference and quoted the scientists. You must be experiencing cognitive dissonance.

You consistently try to muddy the waters to scare people away from vaccination. You are unwilling to honestly discuss vaccination with people.

You entered this thread by posting a fabricated story about a fabricated person in order to scare people into getting vaccinated. You are unwilling to honestly discuss vaccination with people.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You are the one using fear to promote vaccines. I have argued measles isn't a scary disease and doesn't warrant mass vaccination or forced vaccination.

If that were true we would have never bothered to develop a vaccine for it in the first place.
Is it serious?

Measles can be dangerous, especially for babies and young children. From 2001-2013, 28% of children younger than 5 years old who had measles had to be treated in the hospital.
For some children, measles can lead to:

• Pneumonia (a serious lung infection)
• Lifelong brain damage
• Deafness

Spoiler

How dangerous is measles?

27 March 2013 Many parents think of measles as a relatively minor disease that might cause a short period of illness, but will not leave any lasting damage. They might question whether vaccination against measles is necessary. These parents should read the passages below by Roald Dahl, whose daughter Olivia died of measles encephalitis in 1962. Measles causes encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) in about one in every thousand children who get it. Encephalitis is still an extremely serious condition which is difficult to treat and almost always requires admission to an intensive care unit. Each year in the UK, several thousand unvaccinated children catch measles, and run the risk of encephalitis and death. (Also see the short films about measles complications on the measles information page.)
The following account of taking his daughter into hospital after she had collapsed at home was written by Roald Dahl in a school exercise book hidden away at the back of a drawer in his writing shed:
Awful drive. Lorries kept holding us up on narrow roads. Got to hospital. Ambulance went to wrong entrance. Backed out. Arrived. Young doctor in charge. Mervyn and he gave her 3mg sodium amatol. I sat in hall. Smoked. Felt frozen. A small single bar electric fire on wall. An old man in next room. Woman doctor went to phone. She was trying urgently to locate another doctor. He arrived. I went in. Olivia lying quietly. Still unconscious. She has an even chance, doctor said. They had tapped her spine. Not meningitis. It’s encephalitis. Mervyn left in my car. I stayed. Pat arrived and went in to see Olivia. Kissed her. Spoke to her. Still unconscious. I went in. I said, “Olivia… Olivia.” She raised her head slightly off pillow. Sister said don’t. I went out. We drank whiskey. I told doctor to consult experts. Call anyone. He called a man in Oxford. I listened. Instructions were given. Not much could be done. I first said I would stay on. Then I said I’d go back with Pat. Went. Arrived home. Called Philip Evans. He called hospital. Called me back. “Shall I come?” “Yes please.” I said I’d tell hospital he was coming. I called. Doc thought I was Evans. He said I’m afraid she’s worse. I got in the car. Got to hospital. Walked in. Two doctors advanced on me from waiting room. How is she? I’m afraid it’s too late. I went into her room. Sheet was over her. Doctor said to nurse go out. Leave him alone. I kissed her. She was warm. I went out. “She is warm.” I said to doctors in hall, “Why is she so warm?” “Of course,” he said. I left.

Over twenty years later, Roald Dahl wrote the following passage, aimed at parents who were refusing to give their children the measles vaccine...
Measles: a dangerous illness, by Roald Dahl

Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old.
As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything.
“Are you feeling all right?” I asked her.
“I feel all sleepy, ” she said.
In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.
The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her.
That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would still be nothing the doctors could do to help her.On the other hand, there is today something that parents can do to make sure that this sort of tragedy does not happen to a child of theirs. They can insist that their child is immunised against measles. I was unable to do that for Olivia in 1962 because in those days a reliable measles vaccine had not been discovered. Today a good and safe vaccine is available to every family and all you have to do is to ask your doctor to administer it.
It is not yet generally accepted that measles can be a dangerous illness.
Believe me, it is. In my opinion parents who now refuse to have their children immunised are putting the lives of those children at risk.
In America, where measles immunisation is compulsory, measles like smallpox, has been virtually wiped out.
Here in Britain, because so many parents refuse, either out of obstinacy or ignorance or fear, to allow their children to be immunised, we still have a hundred thousand cases of measles every year. [Since this was written in 1986, the success of the MMR vaccination has reduced this figure to several thousand each year, but unvaccinated children are still at risk, and some do still die of measles].
Out of those, more than 10,000 will suffer side effects of one kind or another.
At least 10,000 will develop ear or chest infections.
About 20 will die.
LET THAT SINK IN.
Every year around 20 children will die in Britain from measles.
So what about the risks that your children will run from being immunised?
They are almost non-existent. Listen to this. In a district of around 300,000 people, there will be only one child every 250 years who will develop serious side effects from measles immunisation! That is about a million to one chance. I should think there would be more chance of your child choking to death on a chocolate bar than of becoming seriously ill from a measles immunisation.
So what on earth are you worrying about?
It really is almost a crime to allow your child to go unimmunised.
The ideal time to have it done is at 13 months, but it is never too late. All school-children who have not yet had a measles immunisation should beg their parents to arrange for them to have one as soon as possible.
Incidentally, I dedicated two of my books to Olivia, the first was James and the Giant Peach’. That was when she was still alive. The second was ‘The BFG’, dedicated to her memory after she had died from measles. You will see her name at the beginning of each of these books. And I know how happy she would be if only she could know that her death had helped to save a good deal of illness and death among other children.

Define "full blown measles."

Any measles infection, whether you get it from a vaccine or from the the wild is believed to give a person immunity to a future infection with any other strain of measles. I haven't disputed that.

See above for the symptoms previously listed. Open the spoiler to see why the disease need not be fatal to be life changing.

 

[CabinetMaker]

It is an infection with a live attenuated measles virus.

Platitude. What is the difference between the attenuated virus and the wild virus?

Rather, you will not let yourself be embarrassed for making so many false statements about how a live attenuated virus vaccine works.

I will stand by what I have said.

Note that I have been specifically saying "attenuated virus." I have explained the difference and quoted the scientists. You must be experiencing cognitive dissonance.

You quote it, but lets see if you understand those quotes. In your own words, what is the difference to the human body between an attenuated virus and a wild virus?

You entered this thread by posting a fabricated story about a fabricated person in order to scare people into getting vaccinated. You are unwilling to honestly discuss vaccination with people.

Whether is has been fabricated in whole or in part, the point of the article remains valid - not vaccinating children has consequences for those children. They rang from mild discomfort to death. I still find it reasonable to get people to think about that when evaluating vaccinations. Given the impassioned ignorance of the anti-vax crowd, an embellished story ,might be what is required to get people to consider both sides of the issue.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I find it both interesting and telling that the anti-vax crowd has kept the focus on the measles vaccine and have completely ignored questions dealing with polio. One must wonder why.

 

[fzappa13]

Why Japan banned MMR vaccine

by JENNY HOPE, Daily Mail

Japan stopped using the MMR vaccine seven years ago - virtually the only developed nation to turn its back on the jab.

Government health chiefs claim a four-year experiment with it has had serious financial and human costs.

Of the 3,969 medical compensation claims relating to vaccines in the last 30 years, a quarter had been made by those badly affected by the combined measles, mumps and rubella vaccine, they say.

The triple jab was banned in Japan in 1993 after 1.8 million children had been given two types of MMR and a record number developed non-viral meningitis and other adverse reactions.

Official figures show there were three deaths while eight children were left with permanent handicaps ranging from damaged hearing and blindness to loss of control of limbs.

The government reconsidered using MMR in 1999 but decided it was safer to keep the ban and continue using individual vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella.

The British Department of Health said Japan had used a type of MMR which included a strain of mumps vaccine that had particular problems and was discontinued in the UK because of safety concerns.

The Japanese government realised there was a problem with MMR soon after its introduction in April 1989 when vaccination was compulsory. Parents who refused had to pay a small fine.

An analysis of vaccinations over a three-month period showed one in every 900 children was experiencing problems. This was over 2,000 times higher than the expected rate of one child in every 100,000 to 200,000.

The ministry switched to another MMR vaccine in October 1991 but the incidence was still high with one in 1,755 children affected. No separate record has been kept of claims involving autism.

Tests on the spinal fluid of 125 children affected were carried out to see if the vaccine had got into the children's nervous systems. They found one confirmed case and two further suspected cases.

In 1993, after a public outcry fuelled by worries over the flu vaccine, the government dropped the requirement for children to be vaccinated against measles or rubella.

Dr Hiroki Nakatani, director of the Infectious Disease Division at Japan's Ministry of Health and Welfare said that giving individual vaccines cost twice as much as MMR 'but we believe it is worth it'.

In some areas parents have to pay, while in others health authorities foot the bill.

However, he admitted the MMR scare has left its mark. With vaccination rates low, there have been measles outbreaks which have claimed 94 lives in the last five years



Quack source: Japanese government.

 

[fzappa13]

I find it both interesting and telling that the anti-vax crowd has kept the focus on the measles vaccine and have completely ignored questions dealing with polio. One must wonder why.

In 1977, Dr Jonas Salk who developed the first polio vaccine, testified along with other scientists, that mass inoculation against polio was the cause of most polio cases throughout the USA since 1961. (Science 4/4/77 "Abstracts" )




Dr. Salk? Anti-vax? Really?

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

You are evading the point

I'm asking the question. Either you can answer it or you can't.

 

[fzappa13]

Whether is has been fabricated in whole or in part, the point of the article remains valid - not vaccinating children has consequences for those children. They rang from mild discomfort to death. I still find it reasonable to get people to think about that when evaluating vaccinations. Given the impassioned ignorance of the anti-vax crowd, an embellished story ,might be what is required to get people to consider both sides of the issue.

:nono:

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

In 1977, Dr Jonas Salk who developed the first polio vaccine, testified along with other scientists, that mass inoculation against polio was the cause of most polio cases throughout the USA since 1961. (Science 4/4/77 "Abstracts" )

Perhaps it might be useful to cite your sources:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/historical-facts-about-the-dangers-and-failures-of-vaccines/14974

What (science 4/4/77 "abstracts") is referencing is anyone's guess.