Hello - No Idea about God

[Random]

Hi DXPose,

You say that this God of yours created Heaven and Earth. Do you mean just the planet Earth, or does "Earth" include the rest of the Solar System and all the galaxies too? When you say Heaven, do you mean the Universe beyond the planet Earth or some other place? When did your God create this Hell that you speak of? And where is it? Is it inside our planet, for example?

Hello Marcus Red,

To answer your question the Hebrew word for Heaven shammayim is actually a plural so when it says that God created the Heavens it refers to all that is above the earth. However it can also be translated as a singular. There are two words in Hebrew for Heaven, shammayim and raquia. Raquia refers and is limited to the firmament or our atmosphere while shammayim emcompasses the firmament all that is above. Now in the book of 2 Corinthians the Apostle Paul makes an interesting statment. Let us look at this verse.

It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:1 (NKJV)

Now one comment I would like to make is that in this passage Paul is referring to himself in the first person. It has been speculated that his journey to the third Heaven took place during his temporary death while at Lystra, but God revived him. Here is that passage.

19 Then Jews from Antioch and Iconium came there; and having persuaded the multitudes, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead. 20 However, when the disciples gathered around him, he rose up and went into the city. And the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe. Acts 14:19-20 Acts:14:19-20 (NKJV)

Although this is just speculation. Anyway, it is believed that there are three heavens. The first being our atmosphere, the second being all that is between the first and third heaven such as space, planets. galaxies ect. The third Heaven is where the divine realm that is inaccessable to man.

In short response to your other question Hell does not exist yet. It will after the Tribulation. The dead go to Sheol which is the realm of the dead said to be located deep within the earth. I assume it's at the center. The spirits of those who died in Christ go to be with him in Heaven and await the time of the Rapture when all who have died shall be bodily ressurected.

Random

 

[Random]

Originally Posted by Marcus Red
Did your God flood the whole world and kill all the children? Did he order Joshua to massacre the inhabitants of the cities he supposedly conquered in Canaan? Why does this conscience (supposedly God given) find these supposed acts of this supposed God to be immoral? Or maybe that isn’t your God?

Did you happen to read the part in Genesis 6 about how wicked humankind became?

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. Genesis 6:5-6 (NKJV)

2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. Genesis 9:2-4 (NKJV)

There is a rabbinic theory that God permitted man to eat animals so he would not develope a taste for human flesh again.

Also have you every studied the Caananites and how wicked and morally debased they were? Charles Manson would have fit in very well with their religions.

 

[Marcus Red]

Hi Random,

To answer your question the Hebrew word for Heaven shammayim is actually a plural so when it says that God created the Heavens it refers to all that is above the earth. However it can also be translated as a singular. There are two words in Hebrew for Heaven, shammayim and raquia. Raquia refers and is limited to the firmament or our atmosphere while shammayim emcompasses the firmament all that is above.

Yes, I am aware of this. I learned some Hebrew when I was studying this stuff. The "firmament" is different from the "heavens". Genesis seems to imply that the Heavens are above the Firmamant, but this only makes sense if the Earth is assumed to be flat with the Firmament as a solid dome above it. In the light of what we know to be true about our planet and the rest of the Solar System this needs to be re-interpreted. So the "Firmament" is actually not a firmament but the gas that constitutes out atmosphere and the "Heavens" are the rest of space.

The creation of "Heaven" as in "the abode of God" is then not included in the creation story.

It's late here in the UK, so I will look at the rest of your post tomorrow, thanks for your reply.

Regards,

Marcus

 

[Random]

Hi Random,

Yes, I am aware of this. I learned some Hebrew when I was studying this stuff. The "firmament" is different from the "heavens". Genesis seems to imply that the Heavens are above the Firmamant, but this only makes sense if the Earth is assumed to be flat with the Firmament as a solid dome above it. In the light of what we know to be true about our planet and the rest of the Solar System this needs to be re-interpreted. So the "Firmament" is actually not a firmament but the gas that constitutes out atmosphere and the "Heavens" are the rest of space.

The creation of "Heaven" as in "the abode of God" is then not included in the creation story.

Yes it is. The hashammayim in Genesis 1 encompasses all that is above the earth including the divine realm. As I said, shammayim is not limited to the firmament as raquia. I would advise you not to re-intrepret a Hebrew word or its meaning based on modern day thought. Besides, where in the Bible does it indicate the writers thought the Earth was flat?

21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, Isaiah 40:22 (NKJV)

In Christ,
Random

 

[Ktoyou]

Marcus Red,
OK, I am not going to debate religion, Christianity or spiritually with you, but why do you have to be a gutless little Pinko Commie? Why can’t you be stand up and be an individual, why the obsession with the collective, do you think that human collective defines God?

 

[DXPose]

That's all very well but it isn't evidence that any particular God made it, or evidence that the other attributes you claim for your God are also those of your supposed creator.

It is evidence of an Intelligent Designer. As much as evolutionists try to explain the origins, design and complexity of all the life forms here on earth, it is nothing but psycho-babble for the foolish mind because any rational and logical thinking person can look around and attest to the fact that we are Created, we didn't simply come into existence by a random chance accident.

Consider the law of cause and effect. Simply put, the law of cause and effect states that every material effect must have an adequate cause that existed before the effect. Material effects without adequate causes do not exist. The effect cannot be greater than the cause - Not only is it illogical and irrational, it is scientifically impossible!

If there was a being who created us all then he must have come about by a cosmic accident. How does that explain anything?

I posted this on another thread in response to a similar question:

No - God did not come here by a cosmic accident because He has always been here. God is an infinite, eternal, supernatural Creator who exists outside the natural laws of the universe. Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, He is also the creator of time. Therefore God is not limited by the time dimension He created, so He has no beginning. There can only be ONE creator, not two or three or many. Only ONE can be the first cause.

1. Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
2. The universe has a beginning.
3. Therefore the universe has a cause.

The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, He has always existed so He doesn’t need a cause.

Did your God flood the whole world and kill all the children? Did he order Joshua to massacre the inhabitants of the cities he supposedly conquered in Canaan? Why does this conscience (supposedly God given) find these supposed acts of this supposed God to be immoral? Or maybe that isn’t your God?

Yes - God has the authority to wipe out His own creation for being exceedingly wicked and perverse. Those who are innocent like the children, God takes their souls up to Heaven. It is not immoral for God to kill evil people and take innocent ones up to eternity with Him.

Does your God condemn people to eternal torment if they don’t love him?

Yes He does! But the choice is entirely up to you! God will not force you to love Him, but if you reject Him the consequenses will be your own doing.

This is something for you to seriously think about! :think:

I commend you for your honesty, but why would anyone want to have this faith?

:idunno: Maybe to have some real purpose in life knowing that we didn't evolve from primordial slime, but instead we were created in the image and likeness of God who desires to have a relationship with us? Maybe so you don't have to wonder aimlessly throughout your life searching for answers and living in a perpetual state of ignorance, denial and moral relativism? Maybe so you can be confident in what the Truth is and know for certain where your eternal soul will rest? :idunno:

Again - this is up to you, Marcus.

He hasn’t done so far, what should I be looking for?

Well for starters, you need to unplug your ears and take the blinders off your eyes. Be honest with yourself - Do you really want to know who God is, or are you hell bent on making excuses of why you don't think He exists because once you realize He does, then you will be held accountable for the sinful life you lead?

 

[Marcus Red]

Marcus Red,
why do you have to be a gutless little Pinko Commie?

I'm not a Pinko Commie, but there wasn't a "none" option, so I had to put something.

 

[Marcus Red]

Hi again DXP,

It is evidence of an Intelligent Designer.

The design argument doesn't work. The only way we can tell if something is designed is by comparing it with something we know was designed. The human body is not like any designed thing I have ever seen. The only stuff we know was designed was designed by us (cars, airplanes, watches, etc.).

1. Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
2. The universe has a beginning.
3. Therefore the universe has a cause.

The Universe is everything that exists. If God exists then the Universe includes God. Where is he? If the Universe had a beginning then there must have been a time when nothing existed, which is logically impossible.

A cause is not the same as a designer; rain causes wet pavements, but the rain doesn't design the wetness of the pavements.

Yes He does! But the choice is entirely up to you! God will not force you to love Him, but if you reject Him the consequenses will be your own doing.

In order to love something you have first to believe it exists. You haven't demonstrated this yet.

Maybe to have some real purpose in life knowing that we didn't evolve from primordial slime, but instead we were created in the image and likeness of God who desires to have a relationship with us?

There is no knowledge here, it is a guess and believed because you like the idea, or so you seem to be saying.

Maybe so you don't have to wonder aimlessly throughout your life searching for answers and living in a perpetual state of ignorance, denial and moral relativism?

An arbitrary guess is not a satisfactory answer.

Maybe so you can be confident in what the Truth is and know for certain where your eternal soul will rest?

This is not possible, you cannot know this until you die, even if you happen (by pure fluke) to be right.

Well for starters, you need to unplug your ears and take the blinders off your eyes. Be honest with yourself - Do you really want to know who God is, or are you hell bent on making excuses of why you don't think He exists because once you realize He does, then you will be held accountable for the sinful life you lead?

There seems to be no way to find out who God is other than by asking the people who seem to have invented him. So that's what I'm doing. I see no evidence that the God you describe actually exists, that's why I ask for some sort of indication of what I should look for by way of evidence. What attribute of God would make it obvious that he exists?

Regards,

Marcus

 

[Marcus Red]

Hi Random,

Yes it is. The hashammayim in Genesis 1 encompasses all that is above the earth including the divine realm.

Ah, so the "divine realm" is a physical place above the "firmament". Do you know of any physical evidence that it exists?

Besides, where in the Bible does it indicate the writers thought the Earth was flat?

Everywhere where there is an opportunity to do so. Including ...

22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, Isaiah 40:22 (NKJV)

Circles are flat, two-dimensional figures.

Regards,

Marcus

 

[Random]

Ah, so the "divine realm" is a physical place above the "firmament". Do you know of any physical evidence that it exists?

Nope, I've never been there.......yet.

Circles are flat, two-dimensional figures

Really, maybe you should have studied a little more.

Ezekiel 7:2:‘ An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land.

I don't believe circles have corners. Neither do spheres though. So tell me Mr. Red where in the bible does it indicate that the earth is flat. Provide evidence please.

Random

 

[Marcus Red]

Hi Random,

Nope, I've never been there.......yet.

So, er, what reason do you have to suppose it exists?

Really, maybe you should have studied a little more.

<sigh>

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/circle

Ezekiel 7:2:‘ An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land.

I don't believe circles have corners.

I didn't ever claim that the Bible doesn't contradict itself ... but squares and rectangles are also flat. The only solid figure with four corners is a tetrahedron (as far as I can remember), are you claiming that the Bible teaches a tetrahedral Earth? That would be novel .

So tell me Mr. Red where in the bible does it indicate that the earth is flat. Provide evidence please.

You seem to be doing a pretty good job by yourself!

Regards,

Marcus

 

[DXPose]

The design argument doesn't work. The only way we can tell if something is designed is by comparing it with something we know was designed. The human body is not like any designed thing I have ever seen. The only stuff we know was designed was designed by us (cars, airplanes, watches, etc.).

Nice observation! :up:

Now HOW MUCH MORE complex is one living cell compared to a car, airplane or watch?

There seems to be no way to find out who God is other than by asking the people who seem to have invented him. So that's what I'm doing. I see no evidence that the God you describe actually exists, that's why I ask for some sort of indication of what I should look for by way of evidence. What attribute of God would make it obvious that he exists?

Marcus I have given you several answers, but I feel I am simply wasting my time here with you because you have already surppressed the knowledge of the Truth and exchanged it for a lie. At this point I'm afraid your mind it too depraved to accept the evidence before you. Don't you think it's time to stared being honest with yourself and everyone here? You're not fooling anyone by pretending to want to know who God is - all you really want to do is argue the facts.

 

[Marcus Red]

Hi DXP,

Marcus I have given you several answers, but I feel I am simply wasting my time here with you because you have already surppressed the knowledge of the Truth and exchanged it for a lie.

But you haven't given me any answers! You have given me your opinions, and that is all. Where is the actual evidence that your particular God exists? There is no question of "suppressing knowledge of the Truth" because what you suppose to be the Truth has no support from the actual facts.

At this point I'm afraid your mind it too depraved to accept the evidence before you.

How is accusing someone of being depraved an answer to a question?

Don't you think it's time to stared being honest with yourself and everyone here? You're not fooling anyone by pretending to want to know who God is - all you really want to do is argue the facts.

I have no idea in my head as to what your God is supposed to be like other than a load of words and untestable attributes. You could make up anything you liked and it would be equally non-manifest in everyday experience. Until you can actually come up with a description of what God is actually, in reality, like, then I can't make any decision as to whether he exists or not. The default is that he doesn't, otherwise, logically, I have to believe that every God exists that anyone dreams up. As far as facts are concerned, they need to be argued in order to establish what they are, how is that dishonest?

Isn't it time you were honest and admitted that, actually, there is no real reason to believe that your God exists at all?

Regards,

Marcus

 

[DXPose]

Hi DXP,
But you haven't given me any answers! You have given me your opinions, and that is all. Where is the actual evidence that your particular God exists? There is no question of "suppressing knowledge of the Truth" because what you suppose to be the Truth has no support from the actual facts.

The existence of God cannot be proven or disproved. The Bible even says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists, “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6).

That does not mean, however, that there is not evidence of God’s existence. The Bible declares, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands...” (Psalm 19:1). Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunset – all of these things point to a Creator God.

If these were not enough, there is also evidence of God in our own hearts. Ecclesiastes 3:11 tells us, “…He has also set eternity in the hearts of men…” There is something deep down in our beings that recognizes that there is something beyond this life and someone beyond this world. We can deny this knowledge intellectually, but God’s presence in us and through us is still there.

Despite all of this, the Bible warns us that some will still deny God’s existence and suppress the knowledge of the Truth, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’” (Psalm 14:1). Since over 98% of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, on all continents believe in the existence of some kind of God – there must be something (or someone) causing this belief. The fact that you are here seeking "answers" is evidence that God has placed this knowledge on your heart. You just have to be willing to humble yourself and open your eyes to what is being presented to you, otherwise you will remain a FOOL forever!

 

[Random]

So, er, what reason do you have to suppose it exists?

I believe in God's Word and what it teaches. What reason do you have to suppose that it doesn't?

I didn't ever claim that the Bible doesn't contradict itself ... but squares and rectangles are also flat. The only solid figure with four corners is a tetrahedron (as far as I can remember), are you claiming that the Bible teaches a tetrahedral Earth? That would be novel

There is no where in the Bible that indicates that the Earth is flat or that the ancient writers thought it to be so . We just have a shape. The Hebrew word for circle could also denote a sphere. The four corners refers to the four directions North, South, East and West. "Corners" is somewhat of a misleading translation.

Again, I'll ask you to provide evidence to prove the ancients thought the Earth was flat.

You seem to be doing a pretty good job by yourself!

I have interesting methods for teaching people. Just wait and see

Random

 

[Marcus Red]

Hi Random,

I believe in God's Word and what it teaches. What reason do you have to suppose that it doesn't?

WADR that merely moves the question one step further back. What possible reason is there for believing the the Bible has any authority at all. We don't even know who wrote it, and it was compiled by a bunch of RC's in the "fourth" century. What reason do you have to suppose the Bhagavad Gita isn't "God's Word"?

The Hebrew word for circle could also denote a sphere.

Not true

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRHEB23.htm#S2329

The four corners refers to the four directions North, South, East and West.

North, South, East and West are directions, not corners.

"Corners" is somewhat of a misleading translation.

It is an accurate translation,

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRHEB36.htm#S3671

if you don't like its meaning that doesn't give you the right to change it.

Again, I'll ask you to provide evidence to prove the ancients thought the Earth was flat.

The ancients didn't,

http://www.astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro201/eratosthenes.htm

but the ignorant Bible writers obviously did, as you have demonstrated very nicely for us.

I have interesting methods for teaching people. Just wait and see

OK, I'm waiting

Regards,

Marcus

 

[Marcus Red]

Hi DXP,

The existence of God cannot be proven or disproved.

The existence of God can be disproved, but only if God is sufficiently well defined. For example, the God who flooded the whole world had been disproved by the non-existence of a world-wide layer of turbulent flood sediment containing undifferentiated human and animal remains. Either that God doesn't exist, or he must be re-defined.

The Bible even says ...

What the Bible says only has any relevance if you can show that the ...

something beyond this life and someone beyond this world.

... has some connection with it, you are moving too fast!

We can deny this knowledge intellectually, but God’s presence in us and through us is still there.

You call this "knowledge" but really it is just a feeling that you have, a hunch. I do not share this feeling, and I won't accept that something is true just because it is an attractive theory. Only an objective and dispassionate approach to facts will give a fair assessment of what is true and what isn't.

Since over 98% of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, on all continents believe in the existence of some kind of God – there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.

Even if that is true it does not follow that the majority is right.

The fact that you are here seeking "answers" is evidence that God has placed this knowledge on your heart. You just have to be willing to humble yourself and open your eyes to what is being presented to you, otherwise you will remain a FOOL forever!

I am only interested in what is true, not what people want to be true. I don't think that claiming to have the truth is humble, so why are you claiming it, and then suggesting that I need to be humble? I am not claiming to know what the truth is, I am just saying that I don't believe you. If actual God showed up then I could listen to what he said and make up my own mind, but he hasn't, has he?

Regards,

Marcus

 

[Random]

Yes the Hebrew word chuwg can denote a sphere. It denotes anything of a round shape. It also can imply circular motion. I suggest you get a better lexicon than an online one that gives simple definitions.

=Originally posted by Marcus Red
It is an accurate translation,

The general meaning of Kanaph is borders or extremity. The expression four corners is can refer to such borders as North, South, East and West or simply denote their extremity. Kanaph can also denote the wings of birds such as in Genesis 1:21. The point I'm trying to make is that neither of us has solid ground to stand on in this matter. I do not change words because I don't like them. I accept that every word has different range of meaning and usage. Idioms in Hebrew are always interesting. The ambiguity at times can add to its charm.

the ignorant Bible writers obviously did, as you have demonstrated very nicely for us.

So the truth reveals itself. You have nicely demonstrated that you have no desire to learn, but to nitpick at what you believe to be false.

 

[Town Heretic]

Just a side note regarding MR's critique of biblical writing...is he under the impression that the sun actually rises? And when he rolls down his window is it painful? It's always interesting to note how some choose to turn expressions or metaphors into literal and graphic truth when it suits their purpose but quickly accept and likely use any number of similarly illogical (prima facie) phrases in their own day to day... Sorrow to interrupt.

 

[DXPose]

The existence of God can be disproved, but only if God is sufficiently well defined. For example, the God who flooded the whole world had been disproved by the non-existence of a world-wide layer of turbulent flood sediment containing undifferentiated human and animal remains. Either that God doesn't exist, or he must be re-defined.

Well, once again you're wrong, Marcus. :nono:

Evidence for Global Flood
by Brad Harrub, Ph.D.

Scientists from NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center and Columbia University have uncovered evidence that confirms there was once a massive flood in the northern hemisphere. According to their computer models, the flood occurred approximately 8,200 years ago and resulted in climate changes that decreased the temperature...

Could this discovery be pointing back to the Noahic Flood?

Scientists had previously documented changes in isotope, aerosol, and methane levels—all of which pointed to a major cooling event. The group used a fully coupled atmosphere/ocean general circulation model in an effort to determine what could have caused the climate changes. Their computer model used a flow of water that was equal to between 25 and 50 times the flow of the Amazon River in twelve model runs that took more than a year to complete. While none of the scientists involved in this study would suggest that this data supports the idea of the global Flood they did indicate that the effects of this event were “clearly expressed” in Greenland and Ammersee, Germany. The scientists suggested this catastrophic flood was caused by retreating glaciers. Interestingly, they documented significant decreases in temperature in the northern hemisphere—something that creationists have long suspected would have occurred after the global Flood. Multiple evidences demonstrate that the Earth’s climate has changed, and fossil records indicate that the Earth was once covered with water. The logical conclusion that incorporates all of the available evidence is the global Flood—as recorded in the book of Genesis.

Also you might want to check this out => Flood Legends from Around the World