Heaven
- Thread starter patrick jane
- Start date
I'm not a JW but Kingdom Rose provided correct information regarding the state of the dead.
No one has ascended to "heaven" except Jesus and he is only there temporarily.
People are familiar with John 3:16 but what about John 3:13?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So there's your answer regarding the state of the dead. However, they will be resurrected.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5 NKJV)
Nothing happens until Jesus appears and then everything happens.
1 Corinthians 15:51-58.
Yes, we shall be changed, but who is "we."
I agree with most of Steko's post. Our soul is the "us" part of the equation. It consists of our mind, will, emotions, and desires, the 4 chambers of our "heart" that are to be tied to the 4 corners of the altar with cords of love that cannot be broken. To do so in this life is gain for this life AND the life after. To not do so, is to have the soul stay trapped by whatever it did not overcome through the Spirit of HaShem while still in a body. They are the "unclothed" and will be ashamed at the resurrection.
We are meant to be clothed with new garments/virgin soul/unashamed. These are those that have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. The soul is the robe of the spirit. This is why we are told to rend our HEARTS and not our garments. That means to willingly lay your soul on the altar as a sweet smelling sacrifice unto the Lord, a greater love has no man than this.
Once again, everything must line up with the pattern given to Moses on the mount, so we must study the Tabernacle pattern, that Heb. 9 says is the pattern of heavenly or spiritual things. Each of the courts required a change of GARMENTS to approach the Most High.
Steko is correct also in what the heavens are and how many. There are 3 which line up with the 3 courts of the Tabernacle and the waters separated by the firmament in Gen. 1. Everything that was made below the firmament is called the waters below the firmament/Spirit. The firmament is the Son of HaShem, which is why He walked on the waters, and why He told Nicodemus, I'm standing in front of you, but I'm in heaven. The Seed/Spiritual Son that stood before Him WAS in heaven, and so are we to be CAUGHT UP to be where He is.
But the soul, if weighted down with known sin, is like a weight tied around the neck that pulls the soul down into the waters of judgment, which is what the waters below represent, ie. the letter of the law still is at work here condemning the fleshly soul. Peace
We are meant to be clothed with new garments/virgin soul/unashamed. These are those that have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. The soul is the robe of the spirit. This is why we are told to rend our HEARTS and not our garments. That means to willingly lay your soul on the altar as a sweet smelling sacrifice unto the Lord, a greater love has no man than this.
Once again, everything must line up with the pattern given to Moses on the mount, so we must study the Tabernacle pattern, that Heb. 9 says is the pattern of heavenly or spiritual things. Each of the courts required a change of GARMENTS to approach the Most High.
Steko is correct also in what the heavens are and how many. There are 3 which line up with the 3 courts of the Tabernacle and the waters separated by the firmament in Gen. 1. Everything that was made below the firmament is called the waters below the firmament/Spirit. The firmament is the Son of HaShem, which is why He walked on the waters, and why He told Nicodemus, I'm standing in front of you, but I'm in heaven. The Seed/Spiritual Son that stood before Him WAS in heaven, and so are we to be CAUGHT UP to be where He is.
But the soul, if weighted down with known sin, is like a weight tied around the neck that pulls the soul down into the waters of judgment, which is what the waters below represent, ie. the letter of the law still is at work here condemning the fleshly soul. Peace
I think you said it well. You have my vote for best post on this thread.
iouae
Well-known member
KingdomRose is correct.
We are asleep until the Last Trumpet which sounds at Christ's return.
This is referring to the 7th trumpet of Revelation.
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Christ is the first fruit or first person raised from the dead. The next resurrection is at His coming.
There is no consciousness after death until the resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Steko's argument that to wait 2000 years is a problem, has zero validity. To the saint involved, their next moment of consciousness will be to rise with those left on earth to meet Christ in the air.
We are asleep until the Last Trumpet which sounds at Christ's return.
This is referring to the 7th trumpet of Revelation.
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Christ is the first fruit or first person raised from the dead. The next resurrection is at His coming.
There is no consciousness after death until the resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Steko's argument that to wait 2000 years is a problem, has zero validity. To the saint involved, their next moment of consciousness will be to rise with those left on earth to meet Christ in the air.
glorydaz
Well-known member
You have nothing to back that up. NOTHING.
Nothing but repentance or the lack of repentance.
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God. (Hebrews 6:1 NKJV)
glorydaz
Well-known member
So you're claiming those "dead works" are how she can pay the debt herself?
You think repentance of any kind will pay the debt for sin?
glorydaz
Well-known member
The problem with Ecclesiastes is that it's NOT God's arguments, but God's record of man's arguments.
Which is why you'll find many verses in other books of the Bible that contradict what is stated there in those verses.
iouae
Well-known member
Nice thread PJ
Here is what Steko wrote...
"Paul gives us information of the state of deceased believers. He refers to them as 'asleep', which I understand to imply the 'horizontal' temporary state of the physical body, awaiting the future resurrection- anastasia/stand up(verticle).
Since the believer has entered into eternal life at the point of faith in the finished work of Christ, I believe that the conscious 'I' goes to be in the presence of Christ in heaven until they return with Christ to be reunited with the physical body at the resurrection and gathering to meet the Lord in the air."
First off, when we rise to meet Christ we are not given a physical body but a spiritual one.
Second, Steko correctly refers to dead believers as "asleep". By this the Bible means unconscious.
Third, he says he BELIEVES that "the conscious "I" goes to be in the presence of Christ"... which directly contradicts the Biblical idea that death = dreamless sleep. Death is certainly not sleep-walking in heaven.
The debt to sin is death and death is death no matter who pays. Anyone can petition the Father for the application of Jesus' death to their debt. Those who don't will pay the debt theirself.
No one gets out of this life alive.
Nice thread PJ
Here is what Steko wrote...
"Paul gives us information of the state of deceased believers. He refers to them as 'asleep', which I understand to imply the 'horizontal' temporary state of the physical body, awaiting the future resurrection- anastasia/stand up(verticle).
Since the believer has entered into eternal life at the point of faith in the finished work of Christ, I believe that the conscious 'I' goes to be in the presence of Christ in heaven until they return with Christ to be reunited with the physical body at the resurrection and gathering to meet the Lord in the air."
First off, when we rise to meet Christ we are not given a physical body but a spiritual one.
Second, Steko correctly refers to dead believers as "asleep". By this the Bible means unconscious.
Third, he says he BELIEVES that "the conscious "I" goes to be in the presence of Christ"... which directly contradicts the Biblical idea that death = dreamless sleep. Death is certainly not sleep-walking in heaven.
Maybe the body sleeps but the spirit and soul are with Christ. We are spirit, soul and body as Paul tells us.
Let's say for the sake of discussion that Jesus died. If that's true then it is written that his body was entombed for a few days and his spirit returned to God who gave it.
His spirit and his body were separated and we know from scripture that is the definition of death. The soul is the combination of breath and brain. If either is missing there is no life.
Death is death, not another form of life. The dead don't even know they are dead and won't know until their resurrection when they ask, "Where am I?"
iouae
Well-known member
I consider this idea that we persist after death to be just a variation on this theme "Thou shalt not surely die". I consider it to be the first and most persistent lie perpetuated by Satan.
We see it in all ancestral spirit religions.
I bet it was the lie which Lucifer told his fellow angels which induced them to rebel against God. "You cannot die, therefore there is nothing God can do to you". To this day it is FALSELY believed that spirit beings cannot die. It is FALSELY believed that humans will burn forever in hell (because they cannot die).
If Christ never really died, then this scripture is untrue.
Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
If Christ died on the cross and rose immediately again as a spirit being then it was not after three days that He rose again, but INSTANTLY that He rose again.
Jamie,
The Bible tells us that David is in his grave, waiting for a resurrection, just like all those who will be resurrected is, John 3:13, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15, Acts 2:29,34.
There is something also that needs to be understood. David is not to be resurrected on the First Resurrection, mentioned at Revelation 20:5,6. According to the scriptures the way to go to heaven was not opened until the death of Jesus, Hebrews 9:8. This was also what is meant by what was said right after Jesus died, that the curtain, or vail was torn from top to bottom, Matthew 27:51. A very important point about this is mentioned at Matthew 11:11, 12, What John is speaking about here is that all the prophets taught about the coming of the Messiah, Jesus, and about the general resurrection, for all that came before John, then he speaks about after John, where men would try, extremely hard to get into this group, that will be Kings and Priests, ruling in heaven with Jesus, and who take part in the First Resurrection, Romans 9:16,17. These will be resurrected to heaven as New Creations, Spirit Creatures, and Immortal, Revelation 5:10, 20:4-6. Notice that in verse 6 it says the the second death has no authority over them. That is because they will be resurrected as Immortal creatures, 1Corinthians 15:51-54, 2Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15.
Jesus was the forerunner to heaven, to be followed by his bride, when Jesus comes to earth, Matthew 24:30,31, Hebrews 6:19,20, Revelation 19:7-9, 21:2-4, also tells about the conditions that will take place shortly after the Marriage of the Lamb, Jesus, and his Bride, 2Corinthians 11:2.
Notice how John talks about the Bride, at John 3:29, where he says that he is a friend of the Bridegroom, showing that John the Baptist was not part of the Bride, because He died before the way was opened to heaven for men. Had John the Baptist lived a little longer, he would have been one of the ones who go to heaven with Jesus, to be Kings and Priests over those who will be resurrected back as people who will live forever on earth, Psalms 37:29, Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 115:16.
Yet Adam didn't die at once; he lived to be well over 900 years old. And Yeshua preached to the captives for those 3 days, which means neither He nor the captives were unconscious, and then those He preached to, around 500, were raised with Him and seen of many.
What illuminates and gives light/understanding unto the soul of man is the spirit of HaShem which is what is in one on one communing with the same Spirit. When that "candle" has "gone out", it's still very much a candle, just not lit, no more information from the Spirit is happening, until He comes to set them free (going after the one sheep). Peace
iouae
Well-known member
I believe Christ was crucified Wednesday, placed in the tomb Wed sunset, spent exactly 3 days and 3 nights dead in the tomb, rose Saturday sunset, preached to the demon spirits Saturday night-Sunday morning, to be seen by the Mary's Sunday morning at sunrise, after which He ascended to heaven, returned to earth and was seen by others.
Thus Christ was dead for three days and nights totally unconscious.