Heaven

[Jamie Gigliotti]

If Jesus didn't die spiritually then he didn't die, he just changed forms.

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. (Romans 7:14 NKJV)​

Not sure where you got that idea from, but undoubtedly He felt forsaken and had separation at the Cross, for the first and only time. That may be Spiritual death, But there could only be glory after the Cross.

 

[patrick jane]

Heaven is part of the creation. It did not exist before GOD created it.
GOD did not dwell in heaven before He created it, obviously.
From what I understand, there are three levels which are referred to as 'heaven', one, the realm of our earth's atmosphere, two, the realm of the planets and stars, and three, the realm in which GOD became immanent and established His throne, in which place the Lord Jesus now dwells. I do no understand it as another dimension.

Paul gives us information of the state of deceased believers. He refers to them as 'asleep', which I understand to imply the 'horizontal' temporary state of the physical body, awaiting the future resurrection- anastasia/stand up(verticle).
Since the believer has entered into eternal life at the point of faith in the finished work of Christ, I believe that the conscious 'I' goes to be in the presence of Christ in heaven until they return with Christ to be reunited with the physical body at the resurrection and gathering to meet the Lord in the air.

In the letter to Philipians, Paul discusses his own impending death.
When he says 'to live is Christ', I believe that he means that everything about his existence in the physical body concerns his ministry proclaiming Christ.
When he says, 'to die is gain', I take it that he means that to leave the physical body at that point would mean that he would spiritually go to be into the Lord's presence, otherwise, why would his death at that time be 'gain'? If upon the death of his physical body, he would cease to be consicous(which would essentially mean ceasing to exist altogether as some believe), then how would nonexistence for at least two-thousand years, be 'gain'? And, if we now have eternal life, how could nonexistence in any way be 'life'?

Php 1:20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.
Php 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

I believe that man exists as a mind/body dualism and that the 'mind' is not just the physical brain. The physical brain is the apparatus through which the 'I'....the 'mind' operates in this physical realm.
The following scriptures bear this out, else, what does Paul mean by the term 'I' as living 'in' the flesh? Paul speaks of his 'I' as a separate entity from his flesh as though his 'I' inhabits the flesh.

Php 1:22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

In the next verses, what is it which he would be departing from and if he departs, where is it that he would then be?

Php 1:23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
Php 1:24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul says to depart the from the flesh and to be with Christ would be much better for him, but to remain in the flesh would be more beneficial to those he was teaching.

Php 1:25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
....................................................................................................

In 2Co 5, Paul uses similar language. He speaks of the physical body as a 'tent', a house, a dwelling place.
There is an ongoing debate regarding a possible temporary spiritual body from heaven supplied to the believer until the future physical resurrection of the corrupted body into the incorruptible. Or, maybe it's not temporary but permanent and will continue as the resurrected body is joined with it in the future. Nevertheless, however the Lord works all of this out, there is no doubt from these verses that Paul speaks about our being clothed with a 'dwelling from heaven'.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2Co 5:3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

Again, Paul speaks of the 'we' as a separate entity dwelling in 'this tent'. How could 'we' be 'in the tent', if in reality the 'we/I' is the tent.
I don't believe that 'I' am the tent, but that the 'I', which is me, actually dwells in the tent, which is my physical body. This concept is in harmony with Paul's sense in these verses. He goes on to say that believers have been given the Spirit as a pledge that He will bring about the rest of all that He has in store for us.

2Co 5:4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
2Co 5:5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Paul goes on to what I consider the clencher.
While the 'we/I' is dwelling in this physical body, the 'we/I' is not in the Lord's manifest presence, but once the believer's physical body dies, the 'I' leave the body and is then at home with the Lord.

2Co 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

....................................................................................................

Peter uses similar language.
He speaks of his 'I' dwelling in the physical body and that dwelling will be laid aside. Why would he speak of his body as a dwelling place for the 'I' if the body in reality was the whole of the 'I' and man was not a mind/body composite? How could Peter speak of his laying aside of his earthly dwelling as a departure if his essence is the earthly dwelling and that there was no more to what Peter is than the earthly dwelling?
If Peter, or Paul, or myself or any other person are nothing more that our physical body then.....none of us are going anywhere at this time.
We will, at our physical death, cease to exist, if that is the case.
That is not eternal life, as I understand it.

2Pe 1:13 I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder,
2Pe 1:14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.
2Pe 1:15 And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.

Thank you steko !! My mom read the whole post as I did. I also wonder about cremation.

 

[steko]

Thank you steko !! My mom read the whole post as I did. I also wonder about cremation.

The practice of Israel was to bury the dead.
Jacob/Israel requested of his sons to carry his bones from Egypt back to Caanan land when they left. This they did 400 years later.
I believe they did this in faith of the resurrection of the body(Job, "I know that my redeemer lives and in the latter days I shall see Him upon the earth, though worms shall eat my flesh").
The nations cremated their dead, having no anticipation of a bodily resurrection.

Having said that, I have no problem with cremation today, though burial appeals to me in anticipation of the body coming out of the grave.
However, the Lord who created the heavens and the earth and then Adam from dust, will have no problem resurrecting the dead, whether having been rotted, or cremated.
Once my body dies, I'll have not concern for it. I will no longer be there. I'll be absent from it and present with the Lord.......by grace through faith.

 

[patrick jane]

The practice of Israel was to bury the dead.
Jacob/Israel requested of his sons to carry his bones from Egypt back to Caanan land when they left. This they did 400 years later.
I believe they did this in faith of the resurrection of the body(Job, "I know that my redeemer lives and in the latter days I shall see Him upon the earth, though worms shall eat my flesh").
The nations cremated their dead, having no anticipation of a bodily resurrection.

Having said that, I have no problem with cremation today, though burial appeals to me in anticipation of the body coming out of the grave.
However, the Lord who created the heavens and the earth and then Adam from dust, will have no problem resurrecting the dead, whether having been rotted, or cremated.
Once my body dies, I'll have not concern for it. I will no longer be there. I'll be absent from it and present with the Lord.......by grace through faith.

That's what my Mom said, as we talked about ashes to ashes, dust to dust. God can do all things

 

[RBBI]

The soul stays trapped in whatever it did not overcome through the Spirit of Yeshua while still in the body, the spirit returns to the One who sent it. This is a "divorce" of sorts because the soul is feminine, as a womb that reproduces whatever seed is planted in it and the spirit is male in nature as one that plants the seed.

The first resurrection is the re-union of soul and spirit and it doesn't have to happen at literal death, as Paul said he would that he might be clothed (new garment from above), rather than unclothed (die), that mortality be swallowed up of immortality. This is why it says that Christ in us is the hope of glory. The inside is supposed to come out and swallow up the outside. Peace

 

[Timotheos]

So call me dumb, but my question is this -


Do our loved ones go to heaven right away when they die ? Do they go directly to be with Christ or stay asleep until the 2nd coming ? Does the soul go to heaven immediately but not the body until Christ returns ?

Are there scriptures that plainly tell us what happens at death ?

Good question.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

So call me dumb, but my question is this -
Do our loved ones go to heaven right away when they die ? Do they go directly to be with Christ or stay asleep until the 2nd coming ? Does the soul go to heaven immediately but not the body until Christ returns ?

Are there scriptures that plainly tell us what happens at death ?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4492357#post4492357

AMR

 

[intojoy]

Heaven is the temporal abode where all of the saved of all ages currently are. The saved used to have to stay in paradise (Sheol) until the atonement was made. After that Yeshua emptied paradise and all are in heaven. At the second coming all the saved are on earth for 1k years. After this in the eternal order man's final abode is here on earth. That's why I moved to Hawaii.

 

[patrick jane]

Heaven is the temporal abode where all of the saved of all ages currently are. The saved used to have to stay in paradise (Sheol) until the atonement was made. After that Yeshua emptied paradise and all are in heaven. At the second coming all the saved are on earth for 1k years. After this in the eternal order man's final abode is here on earth. That's why I moved to Hawaii.

Can I move there and stay with you for free ?

 

[patrick jane]

So far, steko's answers are the best. :luigi:

 

[intojoy]

Can I move there and stay with you for free ?

You can work for food and raiment

 

[quip]

So call me dumb...

:idunno: o-o-ok....

 

[quip]

So call me dumb, but my question is this -


Do our loved ones go to heaven right away when they die ? Do they go directly to be with Christ or stay asleep until the 2nd coming ? Does the soul go to heaven immediately but not the body until Christ returns ?

Are there scriptures that plainly tell us what happens at death ?

Well, first you must don cartoon wings, harp, robe and make flight to the pearly-gates where you'll be held up in a judgment line. After vetting, you'll have to avoid those Hare Krishnas and Latter Day Saints (and smug Christians...if you were an atheist) as you get your travel-ticket punched to either Heaven or Hell (in-flight movie consist of your entire life BTW).

Assuming you were either a good/bad boy or girl, you must then meet all those like-fated albeit boring friend/family members you remember, forgot or never had the pleasure to annoy (and vice versa). Then introductions are in order to the remainder of saved humanity or ethereal-body-cavity search...depends :devil: . After which you must find suitable cumulous or igneous confines to (un)rest your weary soul.

All before preparing to meet the Big Guy........

Sheesh....this could take a while...God could create new worlds faster than this!

 

[KingdomRose]

So call me dumb, but my question is this -


Do our loved ones go to heaven right away when they die ? Do they go directly to be with Christ or stay asleep until the 2nd coming ? Does the soul go to heaven immediately but not the body until Christ returns ?

Are there scriptures that plainly tell us what happens at death ?

Yes, and no, our loved ones don't go anywhere. God said that when we die we "go back to the dust" (Genesis 3:19), period. He said nothing about living on after you die. The dead are not conscious of anything (Ecclesiastes 9:5), and yes, they stay "asleep" until the Resurrection after Jesus comes again (John 5:28). It was the Devil who started this whole thing about "you don't really die" (Genesis 3:4). There is nothing in the Scriptures that say that dead people aren't really dead.

The "soul" is not something that separates from the body at death. It is the whole person. The soul can die (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28). Adam was MADE a living soul.....he wasn't given one (Genesis 2:7).

A good example that illustrates what happens at death is the death of Lazarus in the 11th chapter of John. Did Lazarus' soul leave his body when he died, to go to heaven? Obviously nothing of the sort happened, because when Jesus called to him to come out, he did just that. Do you think that Lazarus was in heaven for those 4 days? Why on earth would Jesus call him back from heaven? No....Jesus said that Lazarus was "asleep," and he would go and wake him from "sleep."(John 11:11-13) Lazarus' sister Martha also stated that she knew her brother would rise again "on the last day," so there was a belief among the Jews that there would be a resurrection. (John 11:24) There doesn't seem to be any idea of a person being somewhere else, alive, when he was dead.

They all knew the writing of Solomon in Ecclesiastes as well: "The fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast....All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust." (Eccles.3:19,20, NASB) The only thing different is that man will receive a resurrection, whereas the beasts will not.

I think this is pretty clear. Would you comment on this please?

 

[KingdomRose]

Paul said it's better to be away fro the body and with the Lord and yet at the end there will be a bodily ressurection. And Jesus told the thief that today you will be with me in paradise. Scripture seems to say the the soul goes either to Heaven or Hell awaiting the end of the age. Our souls do not cease to exist at death.

This is what has been reported by many who have had death experiences and were brought back.

Would there be any sense to the "soul" coming back from heaven to reunite with the body? How would you explain that? Jesus didn't say that the thief would be in paradise "today." There is no punctuation in Greek, so the placing of the comma is quite important. It just might be the case that it should be AFTER "today." That changes everything. It makes no sense that Jesus would tell the thief that they would be in paradise that day, because Jesus would be DEAD for three days. He didn't go anywhere until after that 3 days, and then he was resurrected. Then he stayed on Earth for 40 more days. It seems that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise on Earth when Jesus "came into his Kingdom." Of course Jesus would be in Heaven, but would be "with" the thief just as he is with us today (Matthew 28:20).

Scripture in no way says that a person goes to heaven or hell! If what I have said doesn't make sense, then would you explain why you don't agree? Where does Jamie get the idea that our souls keep living on? Ezekiel 18:4 and Matthew 10:28 show us plainly that the soul can die and WILL die---really be dead---when we draw our last breath.

Don't you think that the demons can fool people? They can make someone believe that they had died and then came back. This has more to do with the medication the person was taking than what happened when he "died." When we die, we're really dead.

 

[KingdomRose]

That is conjecture. He commended His Spirit. He did not cease to exist for three days.

Oh yes he did. He was REALLY dead. If he didn't really die, we are still in our sins. It is not conjecture. It is taking into consideration ALL scripture, not taking things out of context.

What did he mean by "commending his spirit"? His "spirit" was the life-giving breath that was soon to leave him, and he knew his Father would take into consideration his loyalty to the end, thereby bringing him back to life....as it happened, it was 3 days later.

 

[KingdomRose]

Heaven is the temporal abode where all of the saved of all ages currently are. The saved used to have to stay in paradise (Sheol) until the atonement was made. After that Yeshua emptied paradise and all are in heaven. At the second coming all the saved are on earth for 1k years. After this in the eternal order man's final abode is here on earth. That's why I moved to Hawaii.

Scriptural support please? "Sheol" is not Paradise. Where does that idea come from? Sheol is always the GRAVE. And how do you arrive at the idea that everyone through the ages is in heaven?

Jesus said himself that NO ONE went to heaven before his death, resurrection, and return to Heaven. (John 3:13)

If man's final abode is here on Earth, why go to heaven at all?

 

[KingdomRose]

So far, steko's answers are the best. :luigi:

Please read my posts above before you make up your mind. Thanks.

:blabla: (Everything I've read so far.)

 

[OCTOBER23]

LAZARUS IS SLEEPING

He sleepeth.

 

[patrick jane]

Yes, and no, our loved ones don't go anywhere. God said that when we die we "go back to the dust" (Genesis 3:19), period. He said nothing about living on after you die. The dead are not conscious of anything (Ecclesiastes 9:5), and yes, they stay "asleep" until the Resurrection after Jesus comes again (John 5:28). It was the Devil who started this whole thing about "you don't really die" (Genesis 3:4). There is nothing in the Scriptures that say that dead people aren't really dead.

The "soul" is not something that separates from the body at death. It is the whole person. The soul can die (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28). Adam was MADE a living soul.....he wasn't given one (Genesis 2:7).

A good example that illustrates what happens at death is the death of Lazarus in the 11th chapter of John. Did Lazarus' soul leave his body when he died, to go to heaven? Obviously nothing of the sort happened, because when Jesus called to him to come out, he did just that. Do you think that Lazarus was in heaven for those 4 days? Why on earth would Jesus call him back from heaven? No....Jesus said that Lazarus was "asleep," and he would go and wake him from "sleep."(John 11:11-13) Lazarus' sister Martha also stated that she knew her brother would rise again "on the last day," so there was a belief among the Jews that there would be a resurrection. (John 11:24) There doesn't seem to be any idea of a person being somewhere else, alive, when he was dead.

They all knew the writing of Solomon in Ecclesiastes as well: "The fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast....All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust." (Eccles.3:19,20, NASB) The only thing different is that man will receive a resurrection, whereas the beasts will not.

I think this is pretty clear. Would you comment on this please?

You made some good points but i still think steko gave the right answers on this. Maybe you didn't read his post. :think: