Have You Fallen From Grace?

[marhig]

The following verse does not say that we must believe in the trinity but instead we must believe something about the Lord Jesus:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:24).​

Since the Lord Jesus said that He was from above then who was He claiming to be?

Sorry, but I'm not sure how that has anything to do with believing in a trinity at all?

I'm wondering where it says in the Bible that we are to believe in the trinity to belong God or be saved, none of which is in the verses you quoted?

I'm asking because many here see those that don't believe in the trinity as belonging to Satan and condemned to hell. So they must be reading this in the Bible to be so sure as to condemn others?

So I'm wondering where in the Bible it is that we are to believe in a triune God to belong to God be saved? Or that if we won't believe in a triune God we belong to Satan? In which chapter and verse does it say this?

BTW, I believe in our lord Jesus Christ with all my heart, but I don't believe that he is God, and he clearly said that God was his God also!

Also, Jesus said that those who belong to him are not of this world too, so I'm not sure how saying that he was not of this world in your quote of the scriptures has anything to do with the trinity?

John 17

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I said
Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God.

He was claiming to be God. Later He said:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (Jn.8:58-59).​

They took up stones to cast at Him because He was claiming to be God, the great Ï AM":

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Ex.3:14).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Sorry, but I'm not sure how that has anything to do with believing in a trinity at all?

The first step in understanding the Trinity is understanding that the Lord Jesus is God. And if you do not believe that you will die in your sins.

 

[marhig]

The first step in understanding the Trinity is understanding that the Lord Jesus is God. And if you do not believe that you will die in your sins.

It doesn't say that at all, that's totally changed what the Bible says! Where does it says that if we don't believe that Jesus is God we will die in our sins, that's not what those verses say!

 

[marhig]

He was claiming to be God. Later He said:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (Jn.8:58-59).​

They took up stones to cast at Him because He was claiming to be God, the great Ï AM":

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Ex.3:14).​

John 8

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Who did Jesus say he was from the beginning? Did he say he was God the son?.... No. Did he say he was God?.... No.

John 10

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus said that he is the son of God and he said this from the beginning. And those who don't believe this shall die in their sins. It is nothing to do with believing that Jesus is God, or on believing in a triune God but in believing that Jesus is the son of the living God!

And I do, I believe that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God

And this is what Jesus says that we know for life eternal

John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ, whom THOU hast sent.

And that's exactly what I believe, that the father is the only true God and that he sent Jesus who is the Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

John 8

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Who did Jesus say he was from the beginning? Did he say he was God the son?.... No. Did he say he was God?.... No.

The Lord Jesus said that God is His Father and the Jews understood that He was claiming to be God:

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18).​

If this was just a misunderstanding then surely the Lord Jesus would have denied that He was making Himself equal to God.

In fact, in the same discourse He claimed to be able to raise the dead (v.21) and said that the Father had committed all judgment to Him (v.22). He also said this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (v.23).​

Jesus said that he is the son of God and he said this from the beginning.

Yes, and He said that God is His Father, and the Jews who heard Him understood Him to be claiming to be equal to God, which would make Him God. And He said nothing at all to deny what they thought but instead the things which He said makes it plain that He was claiming to be God.

And if you do not believe that you will die in your sins.

 

[marhig]

The Lord Jesus said that God is His Father and the Jews understood that He was claiming to be God:

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18).​

If this was just a misunderstanding then surely the Lord Jesus would have denied that He was making Himself equal to God.

In fact, in the same discourse He claimed to be able to raise the dead (v.21) and said that the Father had committed all judgment to Him (v.22). He also said this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (v.23).​

Yes, and He said that God is His Father, and the Jews who heard Him understood Him to be claiming to be equal to God, which would make Him God. And He said nothing at all to deny what they thought but instead the things which He said makes it plain that He was claiming to be God.

And if you do not believe that you will die in your sins.

How can saying that God is his father be making himself equal with God?

When you say God is you're father do you mean that you are equal with God? No, you mean exactly what you say that God is you're father and so did Jesus. And the Jewish leaders twisted his words to bare false witness against him so that they could kill him! They would do anything to put Jesus to death, including twisting what he said to make it into something he didn't say!

Jesus never once said that he is God, he only ever said that he is the son of God.

Just because the jews said that he tried to make himself as God, doesn't mean that he did!

Jesus even said that God is his God, why would Jesus say this if God isn't his God? Jesus only ever told the truth, so if he said that God is his God, then I believe him! He said it out of his own mouth!

 

[Squeaky]

He was claiming to be God. Later He said:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (Jn.8:58-59).​

They took up stones to cast at Him because He was claiming to be God, the great Ï AM":

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Ex.3:14).​

I said
THE I AM DELUSION

Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
John 7:39-43
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
John 7:51-52
51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
John 8:1-2
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
John 8:12
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8:16-18
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
John 8:21
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:23-24
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(KJV)
xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.

 

[marhig]

The Lord Jesus said that God is His Father and the Jews understood that He was claiming to be God:

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18).​

If this was just a misunderstanding then surely the Lord Jesus would have denied that He was making Himself equal to God.

In fact, in the same discourse He claimed to be able to raise the dead (v.21) and said that the Father had committed all judgment to Him (v.22). He also said this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (v.23).​

Yes, and He said that God is His Father, and the Jews who heard Him understood Him to be claiming to be equal to God, which would make Him God. And He said nothing at all to deny what they thought but instead the things which He said makes it plain that He was claiming to be God.

And if you do not believe that you will die in your sins.

Here is more of those verses that I quoted, here the jews try to say that Jesus is making himself God, but Jesus corrects them and clearly says that he is the son of God, not that he is God or God the son!

John 10

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Also, when Jesus asked his disciples, "who do you say that I am" what did Peter say?

 

[Squeaky]

The first step in understanding the Trinity is understanding that the Lord Jesus is God. And if you do not believe that you will die in your sins.

I said
That is the first step to deception

 

[Squeaky]

The Lord Jesus said that God is His Father and the Jews understood that He was claiming to be God:

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18).​

If this was just a misunderstanding then surely the Lord Jesus would have denied that He was making Himself equal to God.

In fact, in the same discourse He claimed to be able to raise the dead (v.21) and said that the Father had committed all judgment to Him (v.22). He also said this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (v.23).​

Yes, and He said that God is His Father, and the Jews who heard Him understood Him to be claiming to be equal to God, which would make Him God. And He said nothing at all to deny what they thought but instead the things which He said makes it plain that He was claiming to be God.

And if you do not believe that you will die in your sins.

I said
The Jews thought that because they hadn't received the Holy Spirit yet.

John 7:39
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
(NKJ)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Just because the jews said that he tried to make himself as God, doesn't mean that he did!

If the Lord Jesus is not God then He would have been obligated to deny it. Instead, he told the Jews this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

Only someone claiming to be God would ever say that! He was certainly making Himself equal to the Father when He said those words.

And how can you deny that He is God since He said that He is from above and that He is not of this world:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:24).​

Who do you think is being referred to here in "bold":

"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones" (Isa.57:15).​

 

[Squeaky]

If the Lord Jesus is not God then He would have been obligated to deny it. Instead, he told the Jews this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

Only someone claiming to be God would ever say that! He was certainly making Himself equal to the Father when He said those words.

And how can you deny that He is God since He said that He is from above and that He is not of this world:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:24).​

Who do you think is being referred to here in "bold":

"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones" (Isa.57:15).​

I said
Why do you Trinitarians make all this stuff up. Why would He have been obligated??? Jesus was obligated to God the Father.

John 12:49
49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
(NKJ)

Why cant you just believe Jesus when He said the Father is the only true God. Do you really think that Jesus was lying to God?

John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

Or believe Paul who said yet for us there is only one God the Father.

1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

Or when Jesus said we have the same Father as He does. And we have the very same God as He does.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

And stop playing all these silly games with questions. Stick to the facts.

 

[marhig]

If the Lord Jesus was not God then He would have been obligated to deny it. Instead, he told the Jews this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

Only someone claiming to be God would ever say that! He was certainly making Himself equal to the Father when He said those words.

And how can you deny that He is God since He said that He is from above and that He is not of this world:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:24).

Who do you think is being referred to here in "bold":

"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones" (Isa.57:15).​

I believe that he is saying that he is from above and from God the father and that they are from beneath from their father the devil.

Why would you think that Jesus saying that he is not from this world would mean that he is God? He said that his disciples are not of this world also!

Jesus was clearly sent by the father, why? Why would he be sent by God if he is God? He wouldn't need to be sent, he is clearly under subjection God and doing his will.

As I said Jesus said that God is his God, but you and others just brush right past this.

Also, God revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God, not God the son, so what God says is that Jesus is the son of God. And God has revealed the same to me too, that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God.

Many are judged by others here for not believing in the trinity, yet not one of those who condemn them know their heart, only God can judge who is going where, as only he knows every one of our hearts.

Anyway back to my question, still no verse to say that we must believe in the trinity to belong to God or be saved? Or a verse that says that if we don't believe in the trinity we belong to Satan?

Surely you should all be able to quote chapter after chapter and verse after verse to prove that what you are all saying is the truth? Especially as some here are judging others and are quite happy to stick them on a heretics list and saying that they belong to Satan thus condemning them?

 

[steko]

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

How can one honor the Son to the same degree that the Father is to be honored unless they are equal?

We show honor with the words we speak.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Also, when Jesus asked his disciples, "who do you say that I am" what did Peter say?

Peter said that He is the Christ, the Son of God.

Let us look how Paul used the term "son of" here when he spoke to Elymas::

"O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?"​

(Acts 13:10).​

The Jews who heard this would understand that Paul was saying that Elymas' "nature" was that of the devil.

And when the Lord Jesus claimed to be the Son of God those who heard Him would understand Him to be saying that His very nature is that of God.

 

[Squeaky]

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

How can one honor the Son to the same degree that the Father is to be honored unless they are equal?

We show honor with the words we speak.

I said
You honor them alike because God was in Christ doing all the works. How could you not honor them both.

2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)

 

[Squeaky]

Peter said that He is the Christ, the Son of God.

Let us look how Paul used the term "son of" here when he spoke to Elymas::

"O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?"​

(Acts 13:10).​

The Jews who heard this would understand that Paul was saying that Elymas' "nature" was that of the devil.

And when the Lord Jesus claimed to be the Son of God those who heard Him would understand Him to be saying that His very nature is that of God.

I said
How could Jesus not have the same nature as God when God was doing all the works and telling Jesus what to say. Common sense can see that.

John 12:49
49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
(NKJ)


2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why would you think that Jesus saying that he is not from this world would mean that he is God? He said that his disciples are not of this world also!

Did He tell his disciples that they are from above because He said that He was from above. And he said the same thing here:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).​

And here:

"What and if ye shall see the son of man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).​

Of course the Lord Jesus came down from heaven and it is obvious that He is the One here in "bold":

"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones" (Isa.57:15).​

 

[marhig]

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

How can one honor the Son to the same degree that the Father is to be honored unless they are equal?

We show honor with the words we speak.

What has that got to do with believing in a trinity?

To honour Jesus is to believe and profess that he is the Christ the son of the living God, just as he told us to believe. And we honour him by truly following him, by denying ourselves, and baring our cross!

Jesus said that those who don't take up their cross are not worthy of him. We honour him and the father by being a doer of the word and living it out and walking the walk and bringing the love of God to others bringing them the gospel and Gods word and bringing them the truth through Christ. This is how we honour the son and the father, and by doing so we glorify them!