ECT Hath God Cast Away His People?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
He's not doing anything with nation-states.

Not now, but in the future He will:

"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor"
(Isa.55:3,5).​

In the future the Gentiles will saved as a result to the agency of the nation of Israel. Certainly this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled because at the present time the nation of Israel has not been endowed with splendor by the Lord.

Again, the Scriptures reveal that in the future the Gentiles will be saved as a result of the agency of the Jews:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you"
(Zech.8:8,13,23).​
 

Lazy afternoon

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I know the scriptures brother. When you post 20 I am probably not going to try and decipher your point.Post 2 or 3 and I probably will take notice. As per your point. I am saying the "Scripture" that says I will make a "New Covenant" with you and write my laws upon your hearts is speaking about Israel, and since Israel has not yet as a Nation accepted Jesus as their Messiah, this prophecy has not yet come to pass. The Prophets were not speaking about a Gentile Church.

In essence their is no New Covenant, its only "new" as in different from the Laws of Moses, to be new it would have to be a New Thing/Covenant, which it is not. It was the ORIGINAL COVENANT !! Galatians chapter 3 tells you this. The Law came 430 years after the PROMISE. Did God make a Law Covenant with Abraham or Moses? So why would anyone not understand the Covenant with Abraham is by Promise, not by Law, thus we are justified by the promise, and not by the Law.

I am saying you and many like you place the Church in the stead of Israel, and it is just nonsensical to me. When God writes the Laws in His Children Israels hearts, they will have accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah and he will give the the Holy Spirit. The Gentiles never had a Promise, never had a Law and thus nothing could ever be New to them. The Church was given the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Israel will be given the Holy Spirit after the Church is Raptured, when Elijah turns them back to God/Jesus.

The Elect Church is Israel

are you joined to Christ or not?



The early church began with Jews.

There is no gentile church, it is both Jew and gentile.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Christ began the new covenant with His blood.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

You are speaking out of your religion.

Are you a Christian?

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

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God actually will work through many nations. He will use the Anti-Christ and 10 Kings to judge the Harlot which is All False Religion, in Rev. 17:17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The Church is not in the Tribulation, and God protects Israel for 1260 Days. So God is not finished with Nations. The Tribulation is JACOBS TROUBLE, it is brought forth for the sole purpose to Get Israel to Repent/Atone.

You speak the doctrines of anti-Christ religion.

You are not taught by Christ the Teacher.

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

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You are a Replacement Theology guy. And I have been a preacher for over 25 years. I understand the scriptures, which is why I can speak about them without tagging them.

I am for the continuing of the elect from OT Israel into the Church with all believers added, which makes them the only nation of God that exists.--

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The Church is not in the Tribulation, and God protects Israel for 1260 Days. So God is not finished with Nations. The Tribulation is JACOBS TROUBLE, it is brought forth for the sole purpose to Get Israel to Repent/Atone.

You however have been taught lies of the anti-Christ.

The Church will indeed be in tribulation right up to the coming of Christ at the 7th trumpet following the 200 thousand armies destruction of the apostate church systems, which heavily persecutes believers in the 5th trumpet.

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I have no time for the word of the world which you carry.



LA
 

Lazy afternoon

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Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Mat 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

LA
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You are a Replacement Theology guy. And I have been a preacher for over 25 years. I understand the scriptures, which is why I can speak about them without tagging them.

Yes, they are Replacment Theology people. They must spiritualize away many passages from the OT.

I wonder what they say about the following passage which describes events which will happen in the future:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east"
(Zech.14:104).​

Since they have no place in their eschatology for the fulfillment of this prophecy they struggle mightily to put its fulfillment in the past.

I always get a good laugh with the interpretations they come up with. Perhaps one of them will give us their interpretation of this passage so both of us can have a good laugh!
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Yes, they are Replacment Theology people. They must spiritualize away many passages from the OT.

I wonder what they say about the following passage which describes events which will happen in the future:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east"
(Zech.14:104).​

Since they have no place in their eschatology for the fulfillment of this prophecy they struggle mightily to put its fulfillment in the past.

I always get a good laugh with the interpretations they come up with. Perhaps one of them will give us their interpretation of this passage so both of us can have a good laugh!



The Zech material is one vision (not prediction) and there is no NT comment on it. There are many Zech passages with NT comment on their fulfillment in the Gospel. They keep me busy enough.

RT is wrongly named. The original replacing was by Judaism and found in Gal 3:17. It voided and set aside the Promise to the nations. (Paul is not saying it did; he is saying Judaism thought it did and he was raised in that). The RT that exists today does not matter because there is no need theologically for anything to happen in modern or future Israel. All that was a copy of the reality that is in Christ and will be in the NHNE. And, anyway, replacement and voiding are used in Hebrews to refer to the old covenant.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The Zech material is one vision (not prediction) and there is no NT comment on it. There are many Zech passages with NT comment on their fulfillment in the Gospel.

It is a prophecy which speaks of things which will happen in the future. And since you have no place for this event in your eschatology you must somehow get rid of it.

So you assert that it is not a prophecy but instead just a vision. But you give no evidence to back up your claim. In that way you avoid having to explain when this happened in the past.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Saved as in preserved.

No, saved in this way:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).​

Here are the Lord Jesus' words in regard to the part of the Jews' relationship to salvation:

"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews" (Jn.4:22).​
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Yes, they are Replacment Theology people. They must spiritualize away many passages from the OT.

I wonder what they say about the following passage which describes events which will happen in the future:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east"
(Zech.14:104).​

Since they have no place in their eschatology for the fulfillment of this prophecy they struggle mightily to put its fulfillment in the past.

I always get a good laugh with the interpretations they come up with. Perhaps one of them will give us their interpretation of this passage so both of us can have a good laugh!

I'm laughin' already!

:rotfl:
 

Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
No, saved in this way:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).​

Here are the Lord Jesus' words in regard to the part of the Jews' relationship to salvation:

"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews" (Jn.4:22).​

Quote the whole context--

Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

and give Pauls teaching on it--

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now laugh on.

LA
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Hi and you are saying that the NEW COVENANT has happened already ??

It was established when Jesus died on the cross, remember?

I do not yet see Christ's coming ,nor have seen 12 apostles sitting on 12 thrones < have you ??

Who said the eschaton had occurred?

There are 4 verbs in Rom 11:26 and they are in the Greek FUTURE TENSE so it has yet to happen !!

dan p

At the time of the writing of Romans, I'm sure Paul was hopeful that there were still some of the remnant to come into the New Covenant.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
No, the New Covenant will not be in force until all those of the house of Israel and all those of the house of Judah have their sins forgiven:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

That event remains in the future.

Maybe you should stop trying to re-interpret Scripture that Scripture has already interpreted for us.

Paul makes it clear in Romans 9 that the Word of God has not failed. Paul is specifically referring to the promises and covenants made with Israel, as he lists in Romans 9:1-5.

He then goes on to explain how the Word of God has not failed, and it hasn't failed because there are Jews who are the "children of the promise", who were prepared for glory, and "children of the flesh", who were prepared for wrath. This is how God has chosen to deal with Israel, per Jeremiah 18.

Now, do you seriously think that those God has carefully prepared for wrath are going to ultimately be saved?

And Paul returns to this theme in 11:1-7, where the remnant are saved.

So, Paul explains how the New Covenant has come about and how the Word of God has been fulfilled with respect to the promises to the Jews.

Why do you think your interpretation can compete with Paul's?
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
In way they are correct....But in the end, everyone misses the point.

The "New Covenant" can only be new to Israel, the Covenant with the Gentiles was always the Blood of Jesus. The supposed New Covenant has not came to Israel, though it has, they just mostly haven't received it, but when the words says behold, I will write my laws upon your hearts etc. etc, it is speaking FUTURE TENSE. BUT, the fact is, the ORIGINAL Covenant was not the Laws given to Moses, the original covenant was the Promise to Abraham of a SEED (Jesus) that would take away all sins. (The Law came 430 years after the Promise) So in essence, it isn't really a New Covenant, it is just the original covenant being fulfilled.

Galatians chapter 3 tells us this pretty clearly.

The author of Hebrews would disagree with you. Where there is a change in High Priest, there is necessarily a change in the law (Hebrews 7). The point is that the Jews in the New Covenant would not be under the Old Covenant, because there's a new priesthood and a new law.

And if we go back to Romans 9:1-24, where Paul is dealing specifically with the Word of God with respect to the promises and covenants made to the Jews, Paul states that the Word of God has not failed because there are "children of the promise" who receive those things, and that those Jews who received those things are joined by the Gentiles, who also receive eternal life from it.

So, the idea that the "New Covenant" is really just the "Old Covenant" repackaged is refuted directly by Scripture.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The author of Hebrews would disagree with you. Where there is a change in High Priest, there is necessarily a change in the law (Hebrews 7). The point is that the Jews in the New Covenant would not be under the Old Covenant, because there's a new priesthood and a new law.

And if we go back to Romans 9:1-24, where Paul is dealing specifically with the Word of God with respect to the promises and covenants made to the Jews, Paul states that the Word of God has not failed because there are "children of the promise" who receive those things, and that those Jews who received those things are joined by the Gentiles, who also receive eternal life from it.

So, the idea that the "New Covenant" is really just the "Old Covenant" repackaged is refuted directly by Scripture.



...and the future tense was the future of Jeremiah. There is no reason on earth to think it is first us.
 
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