themuzicman
Well-known member
I see what you're saying, now. Yes. Agreed.
ECT Hath God Cast Away His People?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
I see what you're saying, now. Yes. Agreed.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The following reference to the house of Israel and the house of judah is evidently speaking of the natural seed of Abraham, isaac and Jacob:
"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).
It is the natural seed of Israel who could be said to have been a curse among the heathen. And it will be the same Israel who will be a blessing. But you have no place for the natural seed of Israel being a blessing in the future in your eschatology. You have no place for the fulfillment of this prophecy either:
"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:3,5).
In the future the Gentiles will saved as a result to the agency of the nation of Israel. Certainly this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled because at the present time the nation of Israel has not been endowed with splendor by the Lord.
Since you have no place in your eschatology for the fulfillment of this prophecy you must somehow pervert the plain words.
So sad!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Where did you ever get the idea that all these people from the house of Israel and the house of Judah were prepared for wrath?:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
Prepared for wrath? Nothing could be further from the truth. This is referring to the natural seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob since their "fathers" broke the Lord's covenant.
And all of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will know the Lord and have their sins forgiven!
How can you look at this passage and even imagine that these people were prepared for wrath.
Since you have no place in your eschatology for the fulfillment of this passage you must say something, but it is ridiculous to say that these people are prepared for wrath.
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Saved in this way:
Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
(Jeremiah 31:10)
Saved in this way:
Luke 22:29-30 And I bestow upon you a kingdom just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
A restored Israel.
Christian Zionists tend to insist that the theology he or she was taught, usually in the churches, is Biblically correct and then they make use of that theology to interpret and understand scripture.
But how does a Christian Zionist come to the realization that Christian Zionism is a theology - a tradition of men (Matthew 15: 3, 8-9) - and gain such a love of the Truth that he or she begins to come out of the false doctrines of this theology?
I do not see this happening here on TOL. But I know of many people who were once believers of dispensationalism-Chrsitian Zionism who did come out of it.
It might be that one reason Christian Zionists on TOL do not come out of it - that is, show that they have done so - is because dialog does not often work to bring people out of false doctrines. The Holy Spirit brings them out of it, by using the meanings of scripture given by others, in writing or speaking, but not in dialogue as argument, and especially not in a situation where there are two sides and some are in the habit of calling opponents bad names.
But how does a Christian Zionist come to the realization that Christian Zionism is a theology - a tradition of men (Matthew 15: 3, 8-9) - and gain such a love of the Truth that he or she begins to come out of the false doctrines of this theology?
I do not see this happening here on TOL. But I know of many people who were once believers of dispensationalism-Chrsitian Zionism who did come out of it.
It might be that one reason Christian Zionists on TOL do not come out of it - that is, show that they have done so - is because dialog does not often work to bring people out of false doctrines. The Holy Spirit brings them out of it, by using the meanings of scripture given by others, in writing or speaking, but not in dialogue as argument, and especially not in a situation where there are two sides and some are in the habit of calling opponents bad names.
themuzicman
Well-known member
Romans 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9-11 is about whether the Word of God has failed with respect to the Jews (vv9:1-5), and this is Paul's initial conclusion. The lump of clay that is Israel (cf. Jeremiah 18) has been broken into two lumps: One prepared for wrath and destruction (children of the flesh), the other prepared for glory (children of the promise).
We can see this as well in the parable of the vineyard workers:
Matthew 21:33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants[c] to the tenants to get his fruit. 35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. 37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord's doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
Likewise in the Joel 2 prophecy, which Peter cites at Pentecost:
Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
29 Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.
Peter is calling out the fulfillment of this passage, in which the judgment and destruction of Israel is coming, and only some among the survivors will be saved.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
themuzicman,
I asked you:
Where did you ever get the idea that all these people from the house of Israel and the house of Judah were prepared for wrath?
To this you answered:
Unfortunately for you, that passage has nothing to do with this passage which is in regard to "all" those from the house of Israel and the house of Judah:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
This is referring to the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob since their "fathers" broke the Lord's covenant.
And all of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will know the Lord and have their sins forgiven!
The natural seed of both the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the passage I quoted are obviously prepared for glory.
Do you agree? If not, why not?
I asked you:
Where did you ever get the idea that all these people from the house of Israel and the house of Judah were prepared for wrath?
To this you answered:
Unfortunately for you, that passage has nothing to do with this passage which is in regard to "all" those from the house of Israel and the house of Judah:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
This is referring to the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob since their "fathers" broke the Lord's covenant.
And all of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will know the Lord and have their sins forgiven!
The natural seed of both the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the passage I quoted are obviously prepared for glory.
Do you agree? If not, why not?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The dispensationalists do not use their theology to interpret the Scriptures but instead are guided by what the Scriptures actually say. For instance, please consider these words:
"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).
Here the house of Israel and the house of Judah refer to houses made up of the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It could be no other because it was those seed who in the past have been a curse among the heathen. But in the future the same seed shall be a blessing. When that happens then men from all over the world will "take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."
So dispensationalists see that the plan of God in the future will employ the physical seed of of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to bring the nations to the knowledge of the Lord.
On the other hand, the preterists use their theology to interpret passages like the one I quoted and by the time they are through their interpretation bears practically no resemblance to what is actually written.
How do you interpret the passage which I quoted?
As usual; you speak from ignorance.
The overwhelming majority of people who have left Dispensationalism had been Acts 2 Dispensationalists.
And it is easy to see why.
Because A2D never did completely break away from the Reformed Theology it supposedly does not identity with.
Instead, it remains a mix of both schools.
The resulting sense of contradictions never really resolved eventually leading some backwards into the Reformed.
Out of their failure to attempt to solve for the contradictions not through their hodge podge of both system's reasonings about, and or into a thing, but through the distinctions in Scripture.
And ignorance always resorts to the conclusion "well, it must be then that this here, and this over here, and that over there, are not literal; it must be that they are figurative."
But the fact is that reasonings like "perhaps" and "well, maybe" are no way to move forward.
In this, it is no surprise that you and yours are ever using that very language even as you then proceed from it to assert a thing as if fact.
And there is no reasoning with your kind on these kinds of issues.
Because yours is the reasoning of human view point reasoned into a thing.
It is why you so heavily rely on the writings of men - given their same exact same approach.
An approach you become so entrenched in that you end up concluding that endless books "about" are also what everyone goes to for their understanding.
It is what it is; our basic approach differs.
themuzicman
Well-known member
Really? Read Romans 9:1-5, and tell us who this passage is about, then.
That's fine. You've discovered one end, the promise made to Israel. The problem is that you've ignored the other end, which is how this all works out, and specifically how Paul says it all works out.
Well, let's look to see how that works out.
Several reasons:
(1) Most of Israel in Paul's day rejected Christ. Paul says as much in Romans 11:1-7, when he says that only a remnant are among the elect.
(2) The fact that most of Israel rejected Christ is precisely why Paul writes Romans 9. Paul concludes Romans 8 by making extravagant promises to Christians about God's faithfulness and His word. The question of what happened to Israel, who were also given extravagant promises, is obvious. Thus, Paul first acknowledges that this is a problem (vv1-5), states that the Word of God has not failed (v6), and then explains how this is the case (vv6-24). First, Paul divides the nation of Israel into two groups, children of the flesh (the vast majority that rejected Christ), and the children of the promise (the remnant who believe).
The former are like Esau, not chosen to fulfill covenant. The latter are chosen like Jacob to fulfill covenant. (vv10-13)
The former are like Pharaoh, hardened from seeing Christ. The latter are like Israel, offered mercy for violating covenant.(vv14-18)
The former have no room to complain about being hardened because "who are you to talk back to God."(vv19-20)
The former are clay from the lump of Israel prepared for wrath. The latter are the clay from the lump of Israel prepared for glory (vv21-23, cf Jeremiah 18). So, Paul's point throughout this entire section is that the promised covenant is fulfilled through the "children of the promise", the remnant (11:1-7).
This harkens back to the days of the exile, when only a remnant returned to live in the Old Covenant, and the majority of Israel (the lost tribes) remained in the land in which they settled.
(3) Jesus spells out clearly what happens to those in Israel who crucify Him in the parable in Matthew 21.
(4) Peter cites Joel 2, which clearly points to the destruction of the nation of Israel, with only a remnant being saved.
So, while you have Jeremiah 31, which is the promise to Israel, I have Romans 9, which tells us how that covenant worked out with respect to the nation of Israel, and how the word of God was fulfilled: through the remnant. And in this way (via the remnant), all Israel will be saved. The idea of remnant and a few chosen from the nation of Israel vis a vis the return from exile is all over the New Testament. We could point to John 12:40, where Israel was blinded. We could point to the entire book of Acts, where most Jews reject the teaching of Christ. We could point to Galatians, where Jews are trying to bring the Old Covenant into the New, and Paul rejects them.
In short, the New Testament tells us quite clearly how the New Covenant works out with respect to Israel. Jesus tells us. Joel tells us. Peter tells us. Paul tells us. There just isn't anything more that is said.
ETA: Consider this: God promised that He would bring Israel back from exile. This was a promise to the nation of Israel. Yet, only a remnant returned. Did the Word of God fail with respect to Israel in that case?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So according to your bankrupt theology these people are not children of God:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
I guess you think that they will be headed to hell!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
This is not speaking of a remnant:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
They will ALL know the Lord, from the least of them unto the greatest of them. And they will all have their sins forgiven.
All you prove is that you cannot even understand this passage or that you just don't believe what is written there.
beloved57
Well-known member
The Israel according to the physical descendants of Abraham are not the children of God Rom 9:8!
themuzicman
Well-known member
Well, you have to consider the context, and what constitutes the nation of Israel, whether it's all the people or not.
Let's look at another example:
And yet:
God promised to bring back all he people in 70 years, but only a remnant returned. Did the Word of God fail in Jeremiah 29? Or was the remnant returning sufficient to fulfill God's promise?
Rondonmonson
New member
You have to understand the Mosaic to get the picture. The Church of Christ is ALL who believe on his name, be it Jew or Gentile. BUT ALAS, Israel as a Nation rejected Jesus, and thus the Mantle of spreading the Gospel to all the world was given unto the Gentile nations, this is JUST A FACT !! Because they rejected Jesus, along with them rejected God for many years, Israel was dispersed unto all the Nations, fulfilling Ezekiel's prophecy of Israel becoming Dead Men's Bones...CAN THESE BONES LIVE AGAIN !! Yes these bones are now alive again. Jesus foretold this prophecy also, when he said the Jerusalem would be trodden under foot until the TIME OF THE GENTILES was fulfilled.....So the Gentiles had an appointed time. The Church is the body of Christ or all those Jew and Gentile that believe in Jesus as he Messiah/Savior. But 95 percent of Jews will never believe that Jesus is their Messiah, until after the Rapture, during Jacobs Trouble/The Tribulation, then Elijah comes and turns Israel back unto God (Malachi 4:5-6) before the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath which begins with the Six Seals. Israel is not the Church/Bride of Christ, each individual Jew could be a part of this body, but God who knows the future says they will not turn to Him until the time of Jacobs Trouble, I suspect God turns His face back unto Israel and calls them home. They are after all Married to God. ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED means Israel turns back to God.
The New Agreement/Covenant was around long before the price was paid. God says in Revelation that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. The Promise to Abraham was of a coming SEED that would save all mankind. The BLOOD was the price that had to be paid, the PROMISE was the Covenant....Which means AGREEMENT, the shed blood was not an AGREEMENT, it was the price paid for our sins. The Church is bought and paid for by the blood.
Rondonmonson
New member
I did not say that God had no future dealings with Gentile Nations nor that He did not make promises ABOUT the Gentiles. I said God never made promises TO THE GENTILES....What you are describing is promises/prophecies told to Jewish men of God about Gentiles, these are two totally different things.
Hi and where is that said by Jesus , during and after the cross ?
It is OBVIOUSLY that the 12 apostles did not sit on 12 Thrones judging Israel , unless you are you believe in PRETERISM !!
Those FUTURE VERBS are there for a reason and they will happen at the END at the Great Tribulation , when Rom 11:26 takes place and then all will see Abraham , Iaasic and Jacob in the same time as Matt 8:11 is written !!
dan p
Rondonmonson
New member
The 200 Million is an Army of God, not of Satan. Go read it again The Sixth Trumpet is where the 200 Million army comes forth. Not at the Sixth Vial, which is where the Kings of the East arise....Two totally separate events. They wear Breastplates just like the High Priests of God and they bring forth PLAGUES !
The Church is not in the Tribulation, you just are not hip to the deep truths is seems.