Has the Law been done away with?

[serpentdove]

[The Bible's Criminal Code by Bob Enyart] Are you defending the right to stone all adulterers?

The right :idunno: the law Lev. 20:10–12

What are you defending? Making adulterers president? :greedy:

 

[Jacob]

The problem with the law was the sinfull flesh. The reason that you can't keep the law is due to sin. Are you sinless?

The law was good. It was the sin nature that renders the law ineffective to produce righteousness in the life of the believer.

If a believer tries to use the law to become sanctified it will produce death.

The life of faith is not living in adherence to any law. The life of faith is grace living.



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Obeying God's commands requires action on our part. But these works are done in faith. The Law does not perfect. However, the Law is not the problem. Sin is. The Law reveals sin both to show us our need for Jesus to be our Savior, and that we would repent unto faith in God and Him. Obedience to God's Holy Law is important. It is not how you are saved or sanctified. But it is obedience to God which even the Gentile can understand as good. So, the Law is good and obedience to the Law is good. If you do not observe the (whole of the) Law you may still be obedient to God in faith which is good. You don't need to become a Jew. But it ought to be that as a believer you leave the sinful ways of the Gentiles. May all the nations obey God. May we be found in obedience to God's Law as God leads. You may be able to say you are not lawless, that you observe the Law, whether God's Law, the Law of Christ, the law of the land in which you live, or the one Law for all those who live in Israel. What is God's law found in Jeremiah 31:33 NASB?

 

[intojoy]

Obeying God's commands requires action on our part. But these works are done in faith. The Law does not perfect. However, the Law is not the problem. Sin is. The Law reveals sin both to show us our need for Jesus to be our Savior, and that we would repent unto faith in God and Him. Obedience to God's Holy Law is important. It is not how you are saved or sanctified. But it is obedience to God which even the Gentile can understand as good. So, the Law is good and obedience to the Law is good. If you do not observe the (whole of the) Law you may still be obedient to God in faith which is good. You don't need to become a Jew. But it ought to be that as a believer you leave the sinful ways of the Gentiles. May all the nations obey God. May we be found in obedience to God's Law as God leads. You may be able to say you are not lawless, that you observe the Law, whether God's Law, the Law of Christ, the law of the land in which you live, or the one Law for all those who live in Israel. What is God's law found in Jeremiah 31:33 NASB?

Yes the law is good. No you are not crediting righteousness to yourself if you choose to keep the neutral provisions of the law such as the feasts etc.


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[Jacob]

Neither the letter of the Law kills nor does the spirit give life. What kills is to become aware of the Law and still refuse to obey. What gives life is to obey the Law, period. And this applies in all the three categories of the Law: The Law of God, the law of the land and the law of cause & effect. The case with Paul was that when he became aware of the Law, he found out he had become addicted to his sinful condition and could no longer obey, though he did want to. That's called struggle against depressed sinful feelings. (Romans 7:8-25)

The Spirit does give life.

Romans 8:11 NASB
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[Jacob]

You seem to be disagreeing with yourself. If the Law - the whole Law of Moses, not just the 10 commandments - is called the ministry of death - that means it is the cause for death. As Paul said, it slew us. The Law of Moses was also called a yoke, a burden, it kills, done away, vanished, the oldness of the letter versus the newness of the spirit, sin is revived by the Law, the Law brings the desire to sin, it's a veil causing Israel to be blind and still to this day, waxing old, no longer preached when Christ came, etc.

Coveting was just an example, not the entire reason for the context of Rom 7 and 8.

The Law is not a cause of death, rather it is sin.

See Romans 7:13 NASB
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

 

[Jacob]

A Messianic Ephramite?

I am not. So, no.

 

[jamie]

The Sabbath is only for God's people, no one else.

Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea states: "Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."
(http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm)

Sunday is the day of worship established by the Catholic church.

 

[TweetyBird]

The right :idunno: the law Lev. 20:10–12

What are you defending? Making adulterers president? :greedy:

Are you willing to cast the first stone? I am not defending anyone. And most certainly not a law given to Israel that has passed away.

 

[TweetyBird]

You seem to have a real problem with reading things into what I'm saying, as well as others, that aren't there, and, sorry, I just don't feel like having to rewrite everything for you. I don't much like the message board "turn everything into a debate" thing, never appreciate having words stuffed into my mouth, which you're doing again, a definitive pattern emerging of being just an argumentative person, trying to create controversies I'm not even suffering or the least interested in. If you think I was saying whatever I wasn't even saying, again, please don't expect me to restate everything to your liking or entertain senseless disputes. Maybe somebody else would like to go around and around with you, but you're, clearly, acting like a troll. If I had a person like you around me, who was always poking a stick at everything people say, I'd avoid being around you. You're simply creating non-existent controversies, which I don't find, in the least, intelligent or desirable conversation.

My apologies, once again. I had deleted that post but you must have hit quote before it disappeared.

 

[TweetyBird]

The other example he gave was hating someone within their heat was the sin murder.

I think the law shows us that we all deserve death

This true, but in Christ, that Law is no longer in effect. In the new covenant, we are obedient to the Law of Christ - and it does not even come close to the requirements of old covenant Mosaic Law.

 

[TweetyBird]

Obeying God's commands requires action on our part. But these works are done in faith. The Law does not perfect. However, the Law is not the problem. Sin is. The Law reveals sin both to show us our need for Jesus to be our Savior, and that we would repent unto faith in God and Him. Obedience to God's Holy Law is important. It is not how you are saved or sanctified. But it is obedience to God which even the Gentile can understand as good. So, the Law is good and obedience to the Law is good. If you do not observe the (whole of the) Law you may still be obedient to God in faith which is good. You don't need to become a Jew. But it ought to be that as a believer you leave the sinful ways of the Gentiles. May all the nations obey God. May we be found in obedience to God's Law as God leads. You may be able to say you are not lawless, that you observe the Law, whether God's Law, the Law of Christ, the law of the land in which you live, or the one Law for all those who live in Israel. What is God's law found in Jeremiah 31:33 NASB?

No one can be obedient to the Law of Moses. Israel could not and still can't. Not even Jesus could keep the Law of Moses - it required animal sacrifices for sin. The fact that Jesus died for sin and shed His own blood shows that Jesus had no intention of making the Law of Moses as our school teacher. God's Law is the Law of Christ - shown throughout the NT and it's not the Laws and commandments found in the Mosaic Law.

I do wonder what you think the Law of Moses consisted of, because it pertained to living within the nation of Israel and could only be kept by that community. How are you going to reconcile stoning for adultery if you are going to keep the LoM? And that is only one example.

The Law of God found in Jer 31:33 is the New Covenant Law of Christ. It's defined all through the NT - love one another as I have loved you and laid down my life for you - this is His new commandment.

 

[TweetyBird]

I am not. So, no.

A Jew by birth? Are you an Israeli? Are you affiliated with MJAA? I ask because the Hebrew Roots movement [mostly Gentiles] proclaims themselves to be Jews > the lost tribes [Ephramites].

 

[TweetyBird]

The Law is not a cause of death, rather it is sin.

See Romans 7:13 NASB
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Paul said it was death and it caused people to sin. It was a law ratified in the blood of animals. The new covenant was ratified in the blood of Christ. Choose which one you will serve. It's real simple.

I understand the Jewish believer's view on the traditions which are cultural and are oriented within family and religious life. As long as one realizes that these traditions and practices do not contribute to one's relationship with the Lord. But there is a real danger or substituting that for the new covenant view and one must be cautious in that regard.

 

[Jacob]

No one can be obedient to the Law of Moses. Israel could not and still can't. Not even Jesus could keep the Law of Moses - it required animal sacrifices for sin. The fact that Jesus died for sin and shed His own blood shows that Jesus had no intention of making the Law of Moses as our school teacher. God's Law is the Law of Christ - shown throughout the NT and it's not the Laws and commandments found in the Mosaic Law.

I do wonder what you think the Law of Moses consisted of, because it pertained to living within the nation of Israel and could only be kept by that community. How are you going to reconcile stoning for adultery if you are going to keep the LoM? And that is only one example.

The Law of God found in Jer 31:33 is the New Covenant Law of Christ. It's defined all through the NT - love one another as I have loved you and laid down my life for you - this is His new commandment.

I do believe Jesus kept the Law.

I observe the Law (Torah) even as a Christian. I have adopted a Jewish way of life.

The new covenant was for the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and I believe it came in Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

With the law of Christ we see to bear one another's burdens.

 

[Jacob]

A Jew by birth? Are you an Israeli? Are you affiliated with MJAA? I ask because the Hebrew Roots movement [mostly Gentiles] proclaims themselves to be Jews > the lost tribes [Ephramites].

I don't know what you mean by Hebrew roots or lost tribes.

I observe God's Law but I have never been to Israel. To observe Passover you must be circumcised. I observe the three annual feasts where I live in the United States of America. When asked by others if I have dual citizenship (I am a United States citizen) I have said no. I have no paperwork. I don't even know if I need any. But I consider myself a Jew. I am a convert. I am also still a Christian. I believe I have been able to say I am just Jewish (believing Yeshua to be the Messiah). This is different from my attending a Messianic Jewish congregation and a Christian church.

In Israel according to Torah there is one law for everyone. There are Jews who live outside of the land of Israel.

Have you read about proselytes to Israel in the New Testament?

 

[Jacob]

Paul said it was death and it caused people to sin. It was a law ratified in the blood of animals. The new covenant was ratified in the blood of Christ. Choose which one you will serve. It's real simple.

I understand the Jewish believer's view on the traditions which are cultural and are oriented within family and religious life. As long as one realizes that these traditions and practices do not contribute to one's relationship with the Lord. But there is a real danger or substituting that for the new covenant view and one must be cautious in that regard.

The Law shows sin for what it is. It makes sin utterly sinful.

Romans 7:13 NASB - 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Sin effected death (I believe this is spiritual death) through the Law, so it was not the Law it was sin. The that which is good is the Law here. And Paul said the Law has not become a cause of death for him. He understands the right place of the Law in regard to his sin, in that it shows it for what it is.

 

[serpentdove]

[Lev. 20:10–12] ...[A] law given to Israel that has passed away.

You're biblically illiterate (Hos 4:6). :dizzy:

 

[TweetyBird]

I don't know what you mean by Hebrew roots or lost tribes.,

It's a huge movement by Gentile Christians who desire to be Jewish and put themselves under the Law of Moses, which is actually Rabbinic Judaism [the Talmud].

I observe God's Law but I have never been to Israel. To observe Passover you must be circumcised. I observe the three annual feasts where I live in the United States of America.

Then you are not keeping the Law, because it requires Passover and the other two required feasts to be observed/kept in the Land of Israel.

When asked by others if I have dual citizenship (I am a United States citizen) I have said no. I have no paperwork. I don't even know if I need any. But I consider myself a Jew.

By what definition are you "considering yourself to be a Jew"? Would the Jewish authorities in Israel consider you to be Jewish?

I am a convert. I am also still a Christian.

A convert to what that "still makes you a Christian"?

I believe I have been able to say I am just Jewish (believing Yeshua to be the Messiah). This is different from my attending a Messianic Jewish congregation and a Christian church.

That sounds suspiciously like you decided to call yourself a Jew. Believing in Jesus Christ does not make one a Jew.

What kind of Messianic congregation? The MJAA or UMJC affiliate?

In Israel according to Torah there is one law for everyone. There are Jews who live outside of the land of Israel.

Have you read about proselytes to Israel in the New Testament?

The NT clearly states that in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile. Proselytes to Israel was old covenant, not new covenant. If one is in Christ, they are not proselytes to Israel, they are citizens of Heaven.

 

[TweetyBird]

You're biblically illiterate (Hos 4:6). :dizzy:

The Laws given to Israel were the old covenant. The old covenant has passed away. There can only be on covenant in place. Either one is under the old covenant ratified in the blood of animals for the temporary forgiveness of sins, or in the new covenant ratified by the blood of Jesus Christ who forgave all sin once and for all, forever.

Do you stone adulterers?

 

[TweetyBird]

The Law shows sin for what it is. It makes sin utterly sinful.

Romans 7:13 NASB - 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Sin effected death (I believe this is spiritual death) through the Law, so it was not the Law it was sin. The that which is good is the Law here. And Paul said the Law has not become a cause of death for him. He understands the right place of the Law in regard to his sin, in that it shows it for what it is.

Context is critical to understanding Paul. The law was only good because it caused our death, but in Christ we are alive in the newness of Spirit. We are not alive because of the Law - it slew us. That does not mean we can live an unrighteous life. The NT shows us what is pleasing to God in the new covenant. The old covenant/Mosaic Law cannot do that.

Rom 7
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence [the desire to sin]. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.