Has the Law been done away with?

[WonderfulLordJesus]

You had stated that there was a commandment to keep a Sabbath in the NT.

Methinks not. Is my English getting that bad? Perhaps something in the wording was obscure, but nope, never said that. Still don't see it, though. Was a post painfully making the case, as a matter of fact, for nine commandments so misread?

What part of unnecessary is obscure? What I done did write:

"I would make the case, though, because the New Testament Bible states, that setting aside a day of the week as a sabbath, by commandment, like your Adventist/Jewish Saturday, is spelled-out in the New Testament as unnecessary. If one esteems every day alike, we have that privilege and freedom, therefore that leaves nine commandments that would constitute a moral breach, not ten, re: Romans 14:5, Colossians 2:16-17. In every instance of legalism creeping into Christianity, you'll find cult status."

I even cite verses sabbaths are not Christian commandments. "I think what we have here is a failure to communicate." Was it me, or thee? I'm always getting accused of stuff I've never even thought or dreamed of, much less said, though, no big deal.

 

[Jacob]

Stoning to death - are you for or against it? You said the Law was good - just wondering if stoning people to death is a good thing.

The Law is good because it points out sin. Punishment, in whatever form it comes for (breaking) a specific commandment, is a deterrent for bad or wrong behavior.

The Law is not sin and the Law is not a cause for death. The Law or the Ten Commandments are called the ministry of death. We also read that a command which was to result in life resulted in death for someone (Paul was talking about the law against coveting, which showed himself to be a sinner).

 

[Ben Masada]

No it hasn't. Jesus, the Author of the Law has said, 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.' Matt 5:17,18. The law holds as long as heaven and earth holds .

Jesus was not the author of the Law but one who was born under the Law and fulfilled it to the letter, save exceptions as the times he broke the Golden Rule which covered the whole second part of the Decalogue. (Ecclesiastes 7:20)

 

[Jacob]

... and the Law is not a cause for death.

The Law is not a cause of (not "for") death. Rather it was sin.

Romans 7:13 NASB - 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

 

[Ben Masada]

The law has been done away with for believers who live by grace thru faith expressed in love. Not expecting you to understand grace. Grace is not something you do, in fact the less you do the more you receive.

You have just claimed that Jesus was a liar in Matthew 5:17-19. How about Luke 16:29-31? It says that part of Jesus' teaching was to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. Are we to add a second time that Jesus lied? Too bad for the NT if this is true.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Christianity is a very large venue of people - thousands of denominations [General Christianity], many of which believe that the 10 commandments are part of the new covenant. I began posting in this section because of the posts that are pro-law - did not say you are.

It's probably that the big ones are big sins, reiterated in scripture like Revelation 21:8 or Luke 18:20, though it's not been my experience that law and grace are confused in mainstream Christendom, fundamentalist churches I've known not sermonizing on the Ten Commandments, while it's also true you can't do some things, live for the world, flesh and the devil, and be saved, being the likes of a liar, for example, one of those things. But we know somebody who lives such ways is not exhibiting fruit of the Spirit, that it's not, in the least, a matter one Christian keeps a list, the other does not, rather born again, or not. While we're not under the law, we are neither free to sin, against moral law, some of which the Ten Commandments codifies, reiterated as bad news sins in the New Testament, also. Unrepenting Christians who sin are begging for a whupping, Hebrews 12.

 

[Ben Masada]

It is good to obey God's commands found in the Law, that is, to observe the Law or observe Torah, because Torah or God's Law, the Law, is good.

Calhacavod! I couldn't have said it better myself!

Salvation is not by works. Justification is by faith. We are not justified by the works of the Law. This by no means speaks against good works or works that are in accordance with the Law.

Faith without the works of the Law is akin to a body without the breath of life. (James 2:26)

Salvation requires repentance.

In that case, grace does not exist. If we need repentance, it is from transgressions against the Law. Viva the Law!

Remember or learn what Jesus said here. Mark 1:15 NASB - 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Which gospel, the gospel of Paul or the gospel of Jesus? If it is according to the gospel of Paul, there is contradiction to it because we need no repentance as we have been forgiven by grace. If it is according to the gospel of Jesus, the chance is before us to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

 

[Jacob]

Calhacavod! I couldn't have said it better myself!



Faith without the works of the Law is akin to a body without the breath of life. (James 2:26)



In that case, grace does not exist. If we need repentance, it is from transgressions against the Law. Viva the Law!



Which gospel, the gospel of Paul or the gospel of Jesus? If it is according to the gospel of Paul, there is contradiction to it because we need no repentance as we have been forgiven by grace. If it is according to the gospel of Jesus, the chance is before us to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

We are talking about Jesus' words when He said to repent and believe the gospel.

Here Paul speaks about grace.

Romans 11:6 NASB - 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

 

[serpentdove]

[What you want to do--give them orange glazed chicken for life? Ex 20:14] He who has not sinned, cast the first stone ....

You're an anarchist? 2 Thess. 2:7, 8

"If you break the law, we've got a jail for you." ~ J. Vernon McGee

 

[Ben Masada]

We are talking about Jesus' words when He said to repent and believe the gospel.

Here Paul speaks about grace.

Romans 11:6 NASB - 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

So, when Jesus said to repent and believe the gospel, he meant the Tanach. Let us not forget that he was a Jew, not a Christian. The NT, he never even dreamed it would ever rise.Grace does not work before Freewill. You are right, grace is no longer grace.

 

[Jacob]

So, when Jesus said to repent and believe the gospel, he meant the Tanach. Let us not forget that he was a Jew, not a Christian. The NT, he never even dreamed it would ever rise.Grace does not work before Freewill. You are right, grace is no longer grace.

The point is that salvation is by grace. And people still need to repent. Jesus said to repent and believe the gospel before Paul.

I am both a Jew and a Christian. I am observing Torah. The scripture Jesus referred to was before the New Testament writings or the New Testament Scriptures.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Something that sometimes seems implied, of some Christians, is the idea that grace means lawless. While legalism is false doctrine, as pertains to justification, is there any Christian who doesn't find the Ten Commandments a high water mark in God's dealing with mankind, or believe the God-man who came to us, Jesus Christ, is a different God than the Old Testament God, that He winks at sins He forbade in the Old Testament?

I'd just like to say there's a vast difference between not being under law and being lawless. If any Christian believes grace means lawless, free of moral restraints the law speaks to, you have another thing coming. Nine of those ten commandments put you in trouble, in the New Testament. If you're a Christian, as mentioned, read Hebrews 12, carefully, and also consider there is sin unto death, 1 John 5:16-17. These are the best cases.

If you believe Holy God is mocked, are so hyper graced-up by Joel Osteen and psychobabble, ripping chunks from your Bible, you think you'll take a big helping of salvation and God's blessings, and skip on the rest, all the warnings, you may not be a real Christian in the first place, hypocrite, which leads us to the worst case: hellfire for you.

Philippians 2:12. As somebody once said, a Christian, God didn't give Israel the Ten Suggestions.

 

[Ben Masada]

The point is that salvation is by grace. And people still need to repent. Jesus said to repent and believe the gospel before Paul.

I am both a Jew and a Christian. I am observing Torah. The scripture Jesus referred to was before the New Testament writings or the New Testament Scriptures.

No sir, salvation is by obedience. Let's make an experiment. You kill one and wait to see if grace is gonna work for you. You obey and you don't even have to wait. If you are saved by grace and still has to repent, you are contradicting yourself blatantly.

No, you cannot straddle the issue between Paul and Jesus. You are either a Jew or a Christian. You can't serve two masters. If HaShem is God, follow him! If God is the "Christ" of Paul, follow him. But you must decide. You cannot observe Torah and the NT because the two don't meet in reality.

 

[jamie]

You had stated that there was a commandment to keep a Sabbath in the NT.

There is, but Sabbath observance is not about salvation, it's about sanctification.

God said, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." (Exodus 20:8)

Men have the freedom to esteem any day they like but no man can make a day holy, only God can.

We need to keep in mind that we are students of Jesus Christ and the Sabbath is a test commandment to test our faith. (1 Peter 1:6-7)

If God asks us to keep a certain day holy we either will or we won't.

 

[Jacob]

No sir, salvation is by obedience. Let's make an experiment. You kill one and wait to see if grace is gonna work for you. You obey and you don't even have to wait. If you are saved by grace and still has to repent, you are contradicting yourself blatantly.

No, you cannot straddle the issue between Paul and Jesus. You are either a Jew or a Christian. You can't serve two masters. If HaShem is God, follow him! If God is the "Christ" of Paul, follow him. But you must decide. You cannot observe Torah and the NT because the two don't meet in reality.

There is no contradiction between Judaism and Christianity. Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus is the Christ. God has grace toward us even unto salvation, and we ought to have faith in Him and obey Him.

 

[ThreeAngels]

Jesus was not the author of the Law but one who was born under the Law and fulfilled it to the letter, save exceptions as the times he broke the Golden Rule which covered the whole second part of the Decalogue. (Ecclesiastes 7:20)

To say that Jesus broke any part of the law is to say that He sinned since, 'sin is the transgression of the law' 1 John 3:4 Jesus did no sin but fully embodied the law. The holy law itself rejoiced in Christ’s righteousness. The living representation of the law, Christ, could look around on a nation of witnesses, and say, “Which of you convinceth Me of sin?”

 

[jamie]

The word sanctification means to become holy. This doesn't come by law observance but by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and in no other way.

God tested Abraham's faith and he tests the faith of each of us. It's through faith that we are saved by grace.

 

[intojoy]

You are correct that there are 613 commands found in Torah. The Law was not abolished. But we do live by the Spirit of God if we are found in Christ. When you live by the Spirit of God you obey God's commands. Christians are not under the Law, but they are obedient to God. It is okay to obey God's commands found in the Law. It is the Law of God. The Law of Moses may be the commands God gave Israel and it may also refer to the first five books of the Bible, or of the TaNaKh, called the Torah. So yes, the Law of Moses when it refers to the first five books of the Bible, the Torah, has 613 commands. The Torah is attributed to Moses in regard to authorship. The TaNaKh or Tanach is the Torah (Law), the Neviim (Prophets), and the Kethuvim (Writings), the Hebrew Bible. The Old Testament also has the Law, the Pentateuch, the Five Books of Moses, though the other books in the Old Testament are in a different order from those of the TaNaKh.

I discovered that the Law is good.

The Law killed but the Spirit gave life.


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[WonderfulLordJesus]

The word sanctification means to become holy. This doesn't come by law observance but by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and in no other way. You seem to believe in incremental sanctification by what you said though, which would explain the law observance thing?


-
"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?"

The post you replied to had fabrications in it. There's no "sabbath test" and no requirement for Christians to keep sabbaths or feasts. The scripture reference in 1 Peter was totally misapplied. There are people who simply make stuff up, which I know is really weird, but some do. I saw that yesterday, and it was too bizarre to reply to.

In Christian theology, sanctification is a state of separation unto God; all believers enter into this state when they are born of God: "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption" (1 Corinthians 1:30). The sanctification mentioned in this verse is a once-for-ever separation of believers unto God. It is a work God performs, an intricate part of our salvation and our connection with Christ (Hebrews 10:10). Theologians sometimes refer to this state of holiness before God as "positional" sanctification; it is the same as justification.

While we are positionally holy ("set free from every sin" by the blood of Christ, Acts 13:39), we know that we still sin (1 John 1:10). That's why the Bible also refers to sanctification as a practical experience of our separation unto God. "Progressive" or "experiential" sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one's life. It is the same as growing in the Lord (2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity. God started the work of making us like Christ, and He is continuing it (Philippians 1:6). This type of sanctification is to be pursued by the believer earnestly (1 Peter 1:15; Hebrews 12:14) and is effected by the application of the Word (John 17:17).

Progressive sanctification has in view the setting apart of believers for the purpose for which they are sent into the world: "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." (John 17:18–19). That Jesus set Himself apart for God's purpose is both the basis and the condition of our being set apart (see John 10:36). We are sanctified and sent because Jesus was. Our Lord's sanctification is the pattern of and power for our own. The sending and the sanctifying are inseparable. On this account we are called "saints" (hagioi in the Greek), or "sanctified ones." Prior to salvation, our behavior bore witness to our standing in the world in separation from God, but now our behavior should bear witness to our standing before God in separation from the world. Little by little, every day, "those who are being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14) are becoming more like Christ.

 

[Jacob]

Two different ideas here following, where we see that the Law is good and that sin causes death, and that the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

Romans 7:13 NASB - 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

2 Corinthians 3:6 NASB - 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.