Has the Law been done away with?

Ben Masada

New member
The law has been done away with for believers who live by grace thru faith expressed in love. Not expecting you to understand grace. Grace is not something you do, in fact the less you do the more you receive.

Really! Statistically, there is no other people in the world more gracious than the Jewish People in the sense to help others not only Jews but especially Gentiles. Africa is crowded with Israeli Doctors, especially eye-Doctors restoring the vision of many at the expense of Israel and other well-to-do Jews throughout the world.
 

TweetyBird

New member
The ten commandments were God's covenant with the people of Jacob. The covenant was placed in the ark of the covenant.

The people of Jacob were deemed by the Father to be his firstborn son, which for the most part turned out to be a wayward son.

The covenant with the people of Israel were all "613" commandments [by Rabbinical count - for reference only].

Do you agree that the Mosaic covenant/law was given only to the nation of Israel?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The covenant with the people of Israel were all "613" commandments [by Rabbinical count - for reference only].

Do you agree that the Mosaic covenant/law was given only to the nation of Israel?

The covenant was written by God on two tablets of stone and placed in the ark of the covenant.

The ordinances for Israel came later and were not placed in the ark.
 
The validity of my question pertains to the concept that the 10 commandments was valid for the nation of Israel under the old covenant, and that has not changed in the new covenant per many in Christianity/Messianic Judaism. So how did this concept continue to formulate the church's view on the 10 as applicable since the first century? If the 10 were given to Israel, as part of their covenant with God, then where is the leap into the new covenant which is, as you point out, neither Jew or Gentile aka one new man, a new foundation built upon Jesus Christ as the Head Corner Stone and New High Priest, the apostles, and prophets --- not the Law/Covenant of Moses/Levitical Priesthood?

There is no leap that Christianity is the Ten Commandments. The New Testament is clear the law, for the Christian, is the law of love of God and fellow man, and this the basis of all moral law, Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:36-40. You don't really need the Ten Commandments to be a moral person, led of the Spirit, as you'll not violate moral law, if you are obedient to the Spirit and of a righteous inner man. Law is primarily needed for law breakers, in the first place. I know I don't need a list to tell me it's not righteous to murder, steal, lie, covet, adulter, do a veritable much longer list of things of the flesh I'd not want to be a victim of, as a matter of fact, the Ten Commandments even only some biggies and a starting point that keeping, of themselves, can make nobody truly righteous, truly loving in an agape fashion, at all.

I would make the case, though, because the New Testament Bible states, that setting aside a day of the week as a sabbath, by commandment, like your Adventist/Jewish Saturday, is spelled-out in the New Testament as unnecessary. If one esteems every day alike, we have that privilege and freedom, therefore that leaves nine commandments that would constitute a moral breach, not ten, re: Romans 14:5, Colossians 2:16-17. In every instance of legalism creeping into Christianity, you'll find cult status.

The Ten Commandments is much overrated, in terms of anything comprehensive of the sin nature, given the Lord Jesus said bad thought is murder and adultery, harboring hate and lust in your heart guilty of these same, scripture also clear breaking one commandment is breaking the whole law. The Ten Commandments may help keep a lot of people out of jail, but not out of hell, and the gospel of Jesus Christ, as mentioned, is quite expansive of what comprises sin that no law keeper has scratched much more than the surface of.

Of course, if there's anything saving in the law, you wouldn't need grace, and Jesus Christ would have died for nothing, Galatians 2:21.
 
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TweetyBird

New member
There is no leap that Christianity is the Ten Commandments. The New Testament is clear the law, for the Christian, is the law of love of God and fellow man, and this the basis of all moral law. You don't really need the Ten Commandments to be a moral person, led of the Spirit, as you'll not violate moral law, if you are obedient to the Spirit and of a righteous inner man. Law is primarily needed for law breakers, in the first place. I know I don't need a list to tell me it's not righteous to murder, steal, lie, covet, adulter, do a veritable much longer list of things of the flesh I'd not want to be a victim of, as a matter of fact, the Ten Commandments even only some biggies and a starting point that keeping, of themselves,, can make nobody truly righteous, truly loving in an agape fashion, at all.

I believe that I stated that most of Christianity believes that the 10 commandments given to Israel remain as part of the new covenant.

I would make the case, though, because the New Testament Bible states, that setting aside a day of the week as a sabbath, by commandment, like your Adventist/Jewish Saturday, is spelled-out in the New Testament as unnecessary.

I don't recall seeing that in the NT. Do you have a verse for it? Thanx.

If one esteems every day alike, we have that privilege and freedom, therefore that leaves nine commandments that would constitute a moral breach, not ten, re: Romans 14:5, Colossians 2:16-17. In every instance of legalism creeping into Christianity, you'll find cult status.

We agree that the 10 have become legalism, especially in the USA. It seems to be the measuring stick as to whether or not we are "blessed by God". Hence the objections when they are removed visually from public domain.

The Ten Commandments is much overrated, in terms of anything comprehensive of the sin nature, given the Lord Jesus said bad thought is murder and adultery, harboring hate and lust in your heart guilty of these same, scripture also clear breaking one commandment is breaking the whole law. The Ten Commandments may help keep a lot of people out of jail, but not out of hell, and the gospel of Jesus Christ, as mentioned, is quite expansive of what comprises sin that no law keeper has scratched much more than the surface of.

We agree on the summary of your view there. But that still does not preclude the necessity by the church aka general Christianity's support publicly and privately of the 10 commandments.

Of course, if there's anything saving in the law, you wouldn't need grace, and Jesus Christ would have died for nothing, Galatians 2:21.

We agree on that. I think that you are reading into my posts what I am not saying :)
 
I don't recall seeing that in the NT. Do you have a verse for it? Thanx.

I believe there were already given two definitive citations? Romans 14:5, Colossians 2:16-17. Keeping sabbaths or feasts, whatever, are not commanded of the Christian, nor is it called for to lay such legal bondage on people, as the cults do, Galatians 2:4-5, Galatians 4:9-11. Even after that Jerusalem council of Peter and Paul's spat, they did a no tainted meats and fornication thing, agreeing to lay no other law on the Gentiles, which Paul went on to conspicuously not make part of his primary gospel of Jesus Christ message. But the writings of Paul, which are also of the Lord, unless Paul cites speaking as a man, it is clear on how much Holy God is impressed by list keepers and how much this can contribute to salvation, not. Self righteousness, by some sort of legal legerdemain, justifies nobody, didn't even justify anybody in the Old Testament, Hebrews 11, pride of life contemptible, Luke 18:10-14. The Scribes and Pharisees could strain at a gnat, but their black little, law keeping hearts placed them in hell, as very children of hell, per the Lord Jesus. So much for how well the Old Covenant was working.

Of course, if there's anything saving in the law, you wouldn't need grace, and Jesus Christ would have died
We agree on that. I think that you are reading into my posts what I am not saying.

No, that wasn't a reply to anything in your good post, just my rambling to some conclusion, regarding the law. You should be thankful I ended the post there, unless you'd like me to go on for a few pages, in this age of sentence fragments, texting and sound bites.

Of course, those things morally illegal in the Ten Commandments are sin and forbidden, nothing in Christianity ever condoning anything unrighteous, at all, as God has never condoned any sin. A righteous inner man, actually, goes far beyond religion and is a living matter one can never attain, simply from the printed page.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
The Law of Moses, the 613 not just ten has been done away with and is no longer the rule of life for the regenerated believers.

The Holy Spirit did not empower the OT Saint to keep "that law" because of the weakness of the flesh.

The Holy Spirit could be taken away from the OT Saint (David and co.) but cannot be taken from us!

The Holy Spirit empowers us to keep the Law because unlike the Mosaic Law the "old rule of life" for the saved, the Holy Spirit empowers our newborn human spirits to keep the "New Law" of Messiah.

The Letter kills but the Spirit gives life.


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You are correct that there are 613 commands found in Torah. The Law was not abolished. But we do live by the Spirit of God if we are found in Christ. When you live by the Spirit of God you obey God's commands. Christians are not under the Law, but they are obedient to God. It is okay to obey God's commands found in the Law. It is the Law of God. The Law of Moses may be the commands God gave Israel and it may also refer to the first five books of the Bible, or of the TaNaKh, called the Torah. So yes, the Law of Moses when it refers to the first five books of the Bible, the Torah, has 613 commands. The Torah is attributed to Moses in regard to authorship. The TaNaKh or Tanach is the Torah (Law), the Neviim (Prophets), and the Kethuvim (Writings), the Hebrew Bible. The Old Testament also has the Law, the Pentateuch, the Five Books of Moses, though the other books in the Old Testament are in a different order from those of the TaNaKh.

I discovered that the Law is good.
 

TweetyBird

New member
I believe there were already given two definitive citations? Romans 14:5, Colossians 2:16-17.

I don't see a commandment in those verses that one is to keep a sabbath.


Even after that Jerusalem council of Peter and Paul's spat, they did a no tainted meats and fornication thing, agreeing to lay no other law on the Gentiles, which Paul went on to conspicuously not make part of his primary gospel of Jesus Christ message. But the writings of Paul, which are also of the Lord, unless Paul cites speaking as a man, it is clear on how much Holy God is impressed by list keepers and how much this can contribute to salvation, not. Self righteousness, by some sort of legal legerdemain, justifies nobody, didn't even justify anybody in the Old Testament, Hebrews 11, pride of life contemptible, Luke 18:10-14. The Scribes and Pharisees could strain at a gnat, but their black little, law keeping hearts placed them in hell, as very children of hell, per the Lord Jesus. So much for how well the Old Covenant was working.

Once again, I am simply stating that general Christianity insists that the 10 commandments remain part of the New Covenant.


No, that wasn't a reply to anything in your good post, just my rambling to some conclusion, regarding the law. You should be thankful I ended the post there, unless you'd like me to go on for a few pages, in this age of sentence fragments, texting and sound bites.

I wasn't asking for a theological dissertation :)

Of course, those things morally illegal in the Ten Commandments are sin and forbidden, nothing in Christianity ever condoning anything unrighteous, at all, as God has never condoned any sin. A righteous inner man, actually, goes far beyond religion and is a living matter one can never attain, simply from the printed page.

That still does not explain why the 10 commandments is a central theme in general Christianity. What is stated in the NT about what is not pleasing to God is expressed to a much greater degree that, quite honestly, overwhelms the 10, in my opinion.
 
I don't see a commandment in those verses that one is to keep a sabbath.

I thought the point was just that, the Christian not commanded to keep sabbaths. Anyway, I've said all I had in mind, and don't really understand this conversation, now. Whatever is general Christianity, I can't say, was merely speaking to Christianity of scripture and fundamentalists I know. If whatever a "general Christian" is doesn't like that, this seems perhaps a personal problem of some sort I don't have a controversy raging over, in the first place?
 

TweetyBird

New member
You are correct that there are 613 commands found in Torah. The Law was not abolished. But we do live by the Spirit of God if we are found in Christ. When you live by the Spirit of God you obey God's commands. Christians are not under the Law, but they are obedient to God. It is okay to obey God's commands found in the Law. It is the Law of God. The Law of Moses may be the commands God gave Israel and it may also refer to the first five books of the Bible, or of the TaNaKh, called the Torah. So yes, the Law of Moses when it refers to the first five books of the Bible, the Torah, has 613 commands. The Torah is attributed to Moses in regard to authorship. The TaNaKh or Tanach is the Torah (Law), the Neviim (Prophets), and the Kethuvim (Writings), the Hebrew Bible. The Old Testament also has the Law, the Pentateuch, the Five Books of Moses, though the other books in the Old Testament are in a different order from those of the TaNaKh.

I discovered that the Law is good.

Does that mean you are supportive of stoning adulterers?
 

Ben Masada

New member
No it hasn't. Jesus, the Author of the Law has said, 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.' Matt 5:17,18. The law holds as long as heaven and earth holds .

Most Christians in this forum claim that the Law ended when Jesus fulfilled it on the cross. So, where are we now that heavens and the earth have passed? It means that all Christians with that view are wrong and Jesus only was right. Indeed, nothing of the Law is gone until heavens and earth pass away. (Matthew 5:17-19)
 

TweetyBird

New member
I thought the point was just that, the Christian not commanded to keep sabbaths. Anyway, I've said all I had in mind, and don't really understand this conversation, now. Whatever is general Christianity, I can't say, was merely speaking to Christianity of scripture and fundamentalists I know. If whatever a "general Christian" is doesn't like that, this seems perhaps a personal problem of some sort I don't have a controversy raging over, in the first place?

You had stated that there was a commandment to keep a Sabbath in the NT.

Christianity is a very large venue of people - thousands of denominations [General Christianity], many of which believe that the 10 commandments are part of the new covenant. I began posting in this section because of the posts that are pro-law - did not say you are.
 

Ben Masada

New member
What is the penalty or punishment (for adultery) found in the Law?

According to the Law, it was death by stones but, it never happened. The law was there but only as a deterrent to prevent the case from happening. The ritual was so embarrassing that a woman could think of suicide. Then, marriage was so important and desired that a married woman would not risk loosing it.
 

Ben Masada

New member
No it hasn't. Jesus, the Author of the Law has said, 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.' Matt 5:17,18. The law holds as long as heaven and earth holds .

TA, the truth is so invigorating that only listening to it one experiences joy. It means I agree with what you have said above.
 
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