Has the Law been done away with?

[TweetyBird]

The Sabbath is only for God's people, no one else.

Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea states: "Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."
(http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm)

Sunday is the day of worship established by the Catholic church.

Sunday, as the day of worship, began as new day - the day of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christians had long been using the first day of the week as their "sabbath" before it was even a twinkle in the eye of Catholicism. The 7th day Sabbath was old covenant given to Israel as a sign, including sacrifices for sins. We are not Israel. The holy nation of God are those who are in Christ Jesus, Jew and Gentile as one new man being built into a spiritual habitation.

 

[Jacob]

It's a huge movement by Gentile Christians who desire to be Jewish and put themselves under the Law of Moses, which is actually Rabbinic Judaism [the Talmud].

Then you are not keeping the Law, because it requires Passover and the other two required feasts to be observed/kept in the Land of Israel.

I am observing outside of the land of Israel.

By what definition are you "considering yourself to be a Jew"? Would the Jewish authorities in Israel consider you to be Jewish?

A convert to what that "still makes you a Christian"?

A convert to Judaism is someone who now practices Judaism. I see no conflict with this and Christianity.

That sounds suspiciously like you decided to call yourself a Jew. Believing in Jesus Christ does not make one a Jew.

What kind of Messianic congregation? The MJAA or UMJC affiliate?

I saw Jewish and not Messianic, and I don't know kind of Messianic. Messianic Jewish or Messianic Judaism.

The NT clearly states that in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile. Proselytes to Israel was old covenant, not new covenant. If one is in Christ, they are not proselytes to Israel, they are citizens of Heaven.

The word proselyte appears twice.

Matthew 23:15 NASB - 15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Acts 6:5 NASB - 5 The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.

The word proselytes appears twice.

Acts 2:10 NASB - 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

Acts 13:43 NASB - 43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.

Do you believe a proselyte and a convert are the same thing? I was once not a Jew, but now I am a Jew. A convert to Judaism. I have never been to Israel. But I identify with Israel as the people of God, and I observe God's Law, the Law of Moses, the law of Israel, and the law of Christ.

Have you heard of a ger?

Do you know what a proselyte and a convert is? A sojourner, a foreigner, an alien, a resident? These are different words that describe something. A Jew is either a Jew because he was born a Jew or because he converted to Judaism and thereby became a Jew. For us there is one law, even for those who dwell in the land.

 

[Jacob]

I saw Jewish and not Messianic, and I don't know kind of Messianic.

I understand this is Messianic Judaism, I just know I can be Jewish and not Messianic, and that even in the congregation I attend I have been able to see what it means to be Jewish apart from Messianic doctrine.

 

[serpentdove]

The Laws given to Israel were the old covenant...

Recommended reading:

The Plot (an overview of the Bible) by Bob Enyart

 

[Ben Masada]

The Sabbath is only for God's people, no one else. Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea states: "Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ." Sunday is the day of worship established by the Catholic church.

Very good Jamie! The Shabbat as a fixed day of the week was indeed given by HaShem to His People to serve as a token that HaShem is He who sanctifies us.(Ezekiel 20:12,20) Now, since the Sabbath is for man, not man for the Sabbath, we are free to choose any day we want to rest. We have chosen the seventh day of the week to keep it holy or agreed with the decision of God's People. And I find nothing wrong with the Catholic Church to have established another day aka Sunday to rest. Even according to the Noahide laws, nothing is said about a day to rest. Obviously it was left with the Church to decide.

 

[Ben Masada]

Deleted post

 

[Jacob]

What is spirit Jacob, do you happen to know? As far as I am concerned, spirit is only an emanation. Only that in reference to HaShem, it takes the meaning of an euphemism as in the case of the breath of life which HaShem breathed into the nostrils of man to make of him a living soul. (Genesis 2:7) At death, the body goes back to the dust and the breath of life aka the spirit returns to God Who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) That's an example of spirit being an euphemism of the breath of life that gives life.

Now, HaShem would have to contradict His own Word to have risen Jesus from the dead. (II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalms 49:12)

God's Spirit is the Spirit of HaShem, the Spirit of God being the Holy Spirit.

Each of us have a spirit. Your spirit can be seen to be your breath. But also those who are born again by the Spirit of God have the Spirit of God dwelling in them.

Romans 8:16 NASB - 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

 

[jamie]

Sunday, as the day of worship, began as new day - the day of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It was predetermined in the Law of Moses that Jesus would be resurrected on the first day of the week.

Leviticus 23:10-11: "Speak to the children of Israel and say to them: ‘When you come into the land which I give to you and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD to be accepted on your behalf on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.'"

The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week and the day after the Sabbath is the first day of the week.

The wave offering was the first of the first harvest, the grain harvest. The fruit harvest was in the fall.

1 Corinthians 15:20: "But now Christ is risen from the dead and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep."

1 Corinthians 15:23: "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming."

Colossians 1:18: "And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."

The Sunday resurrection was foreordained at Mt. Sinai several years before Jesus' resurrection.

 

[Jacob]

Context is critical to understanding Paul. The law was only good because it caused our death, but in Christ we are alive in the newness of Spirit. We are not alive because of the Law - it slew us. That does not mean we can live an unrighteous life. The NT shows us what is pleasing to God in the new covenant. The old covenant/Mosaic Law cannot do that.

Rom 7
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence [the desire to sin]. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

I am not saying that the law causes death. I am saying sin does. The idea of spiritual death rather than physical death goes back to the Theology about what happened when Adam and Eve sinned, so it may be false.

 

[jamie]

I am not saying that the law causes death. I am saying sin does.

Romans 8:7-9: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not His."

Humans can't help but sin, it is human nature.

 

[Jacob]

Romans 8:7-9: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not His."

Humans can't help but sin, it is human nature.

You should obey God's commands. God will help you if you need help.

 

[Ben Masada]

God's Spirit is the Spirit of HaShem, the Spirit of God being the Holy Spirit.

Each of us have a spirit. Your spirit can be seen to be your breath. But also those who are born again by the Spirit of God have the Spirit of God dwelling in them.

Romans 8:16 NASB - 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

HaShem and His Spirit are not two separate Entities. HaShem is of an absolute Oneness. When we say, the Spirit of God, it is only to distinguish from the spirit of man. Spirit is any paraphysic force either for good or for evil as for instance, the spirit of life or the spirit of death.

 

[Jacob]

HaShem and His Spirit are not two separate Entities. HaShem is of an absolute Oneness. When we say, the Spirit of God, it is only to distinguish from the spirit of man. Spirit is any paraphysic force either for good or for evil as for instance, the spirit of life or the spirit of death.

God is Spirit. God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God.

 

[TweetyBird]

I am observing outside of the land of Israel.

You cannot keep the three required feasts outside of Jerusalem. Even in Acts 2 it shows that the Jews came to Jerusalem to keep the feast as commanded.

A convert to Judaism is someone who now practices Judaism. I see no conflict with this and Christianity.

Judaism rejects Jesus Christ. Perhaps you have not read the Talmud.

I saw Jewish and not Messianic, and I don't know kind of Messianic. Messianic Jewish or Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Judaism is the MJAA and UMJC.

MJ is also a faction called Hebrew Roots that broke off from MJ.

What do you mean that you "saw" Jewish?

The word proselyte appears twice.

Matthew 23:15 NASB - 15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Acts 6:5 NASB - 5 The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.

Those are people who joined Israel under the old covenant. There are no proselytes in Christ.

Do you believe a proselyte and a convert are the same thing?

No, they are not the same thing. A proselyte was a Gentile who joined the nation of Israel and kept the Mosaic Law with in community. Just like yet today, only the religion now is Judaism - Talmudic Rabbinical Judaism.

I was once not a Jew, but now I am a Jew. A convert to Judaism. I have never been to Israel. But I identify with Israel as the people of God, and I observe God's Law, the Law of Moses, the law of Israel, and the law of Christ.

You cannot be a convert to Judaism and convert to Christ. Judaism denies and rejects Jesus Christ. The Talmudic Rabblis are who define Judaism - they do not have nice things to say about Jesus. You cannot serve two masters. There is no Jewish authority that will accept you as a Jew if you are a Christian. You are calling yourself a Jew and that is no different than what is done in Hebrew Roots. Some of them have even paid for false conversions into Judaism by lying about their belief in Christ.

Have you heard of a ger?

Do you know what a proselyte and a convert is? A sojourner, a foreigner, an alien, a resident? These are different words that describe something. A Jew is either a Jew because he was born a Jew or because he converted to Judaism and thereby became a Jew. For us there is one law, even for those who dwell in the land.

It does not matter what you were told. Either one believes what was written in the Bible or what is written in the Talmud. They do not agree with each other on this matter.

You understand that if you would make aliyah to Israel and they found out you came under false pretenses, saying you are Jew, but believe in Jesus Christ you will be persecuted for it.

 

[TweetyBird]

I understand this is Messianic Judaism, I just know I can be Jewish and not Messianic, and that even in the congregation I attend I have been able to see what it means to be Jewish apart from Messianic doctrine.

Of course you can be Jewish and not Messianic. That is preferred as converted Jew. You cannot have both worlds. Converted Jews to Jesus are no longer considered Jewish. Are you aware of that?

 

[TweetyBird]

Recommended reading:

The Plot (an overview of the Bible) by Bob Enyart

According to Ex, Lev, Deut, Josh, 1 & 2 Kings, 2 Chron, Ezra, Nehemiah, Daniel, Malachi, Isaiah, Matt, Mark, Luke, John, 1 Cor, Hebrews, Galatians, Psalms, etc - the Law of Moses is the old covenant aka the Book of the Law, the 10 commandments, all the statues, laws, and commandments given to Moses by God.

 

[TweetyBird]

You should obey God's commands. God will help you if you need help.

God is going to help us stone adulterers?

 

[Jacob]

You cannot keep the three required feasts outside of Jerusalem. Even in Acts 2 it shows that the Jews came to Jerusalem to keep the feast as commanded.

People do, and I am among them. The feast is to be kept in Jerusalem.

Judaism rejects Jesus Christ. Perhaps you have not read the Talmud.

Not at all. I don't see what you are saying. I have no problem with Judaism, Jesus Christ, or the Talmud.

Messianic Judaism is the MJAA and UMJC.

MJ is also a faction called Hebrew Roots that broke off from MJ.

I don't see what you are talking about.

What do you mean that you "saw" Jewish?

I think you misunderstand. You can be Jewish without being Messianic, with belief in God obeying God's commands having a Jewish identity and I say even believing in Jesus (Yeshua) as the Messiah. It is possible to be just Jewish and not attend or attend a Messianic Congregation whether it is Jewish without Messianic doctrine or if Messianic beliefs are what are apparent.

Those are people who joined Israel under the old covenant. There are no proselytes in Christ.

This was after Christ.

No, they are not the same thing. A proselyte was a Gentile who joined the nation of Israel and kept the Mosaic Law with in community. Just like yet today, only the religion now is Judaism - Talmudic Rabbinical Judaism.

Judaism is Judaism, Talmudic Rabbinical Judaism or not. First century Judaism is an idea I have before knowing anything about Rabbinical Judaism, Talmud or not. Christianity is not a new religion. It is one form of Judaism with belief in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah (the Christ). Christianity is a sect of Judaism. There is also the way that some called a sect.

Acts 24:14 NASB - 14 "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;

You cannot be a convert to Judaism and convert to Christ.

I believe you are confused. What you are saying does not even make sense.

Judaism denies and rejects Jesus Christ.

No, you are wrong.

The Talmudic Rabblis are who define Judaism - they do not have nice things to say about Jesus. You cannot serve two masters. There is no Jewish authority that will accept you as a Jew if you are a Christian. You are calling yourself a Jew and that is no different than what is done in Hebrew Roots.

You do not understand. What a person believes and how they live according to God's Law has nothing to do with the negative things you have to say.

Some of them have even paid for false conversions into Judaism by lying about their belief in Christ.

I have no idea what you are saying. You can't pay to be a part of either Judaism or Christianity.

It does not matter what you were told. Either one believes what was written in the Bible or what is written in the Talmud. They do not agree with each other on this matter.

I see no disagreement of the Talmud with the Bible. If you do not understand Torah and the Bible the Talmud will likely not avail much to you. I don't know why you are talking about the Talmud.

You understand that if you would make aliyah to Israel and they found out you came under false pretenses, saying you are Jew, but believe in Jesus Christ you will be persecuted for it.

My observance of Torah and my belief in Jesus as the Christ have nothing to do with any false pretenses you may imagine.

 

[Jacob]

Of course you can be Jewish and not Messianic. That is preferred as converted Jew. You cannot have both worlds. Converted Jews to Jesus are no longer considered Jewish. Are you aware of that?

Yeshua HaMashiach. You can believe this (that Jesus is the Christ) even if you are not Jewish.

 

[Jacob]

God is going to help us stone adulterers?

That is not what I said.

However, what is the penalty for adultery? You need to look to what the Torah says. There must be two or three witnesses. And there is more detail than even this.