What makes you a Christian?
Has the Church Replaced Israel ?
- Thread starter beloved57
- Start date
What's the difference? (Hint: there isn't one.)
Those instances have been explained to you, without response from you except to ignore that it was done.
You seriously need to read more carefully. Romans 1 is a great place to start but if you want a more complete biblical treatment of the issue, read Bob Enyart's, "Nicer Then God"
No, it wasn't!
He condemned all sort of evil people, stating explicitly that such deserve death. He states that the governing official does not wield the sword in vain and gave detailed instructions about who to give charity too (i.e. teaching not to give it to those who do no qualify). He wished that Judaizers would "cut themselves off" and commanded believers not to even eat with sexually immoral believers, etc, etc, etc.
No, it does not!
It cautions HYPOCRITES not to judge others!
Matthew 7:7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
There is no biblical president for such an attitude. God isn't going to send sin to Hell, He's going to send sinners.
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This is simply not biblical. First of all the New Covenant has to do with Israel, not the Body of Christ but more directly relevant to the point is that it directly contradicts what Paul teaches about what the role of the law is. It is precisely the condemnation of the law that brings people to Christ! This is what Romans 7 is all about.
Absolutely NO WAY has the church replaced Israel!
Even if it had, nothing of your doctrine as described so far in this post would be consistent even with that doctrine!
The New Covenant is between God and Israel.
Again, not directly relevant to this point here.
Only for a time. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, God will return to Israel and He will exalt the law and make it honorable.
Once again, this is not really relevant.
Are you thinking that we are advocating that people aught to be under the law in any sort of religious manner? If so, you've severely misunderstood.
We are not saying that homos and murderers and rapist, etc should be executed because of some religious edict or because we want to enact the law of Moses per se. What we are advocating is criminal justice. The death penalty was instituted by God long before Moses, and while the laws can change and what authority God has delegated to human governments might change but justice does not change.
God is Justice. The term derives its meaning from God's own existence and personality. God is not arbitrary and so when He says that someone who is guilty of a particular crime should be put to death, there's a good reason for it. Some of those reason were strictly religious in nature and had to do with maintaining a separation of Israel from their neighbors so as to facilitate the coming of the Messiah in accordance with prophesy and with the promises of God. Most, however, had nothing to do with the Jewish religion per se. It was simply justice.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
Do you believe that God was unjust when He made that command?
Have you made any investigation into whether it was or was not just? Have you made any inquiry at all as to whether such a command makes sense in a civilized society?
Probably not!
There are people who have and we have more than two thousand years of civilized society that has been based on the Judeo-Christain ethic and this country in particular produced the safest, wealthiest, healthiest and most prosperous civilization the world has ever seen in less than one twentieth of that time and we've spent the last century tearing it down precisely by being far too nice to evil people.
Clete
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Your error has to do with dissecting the intellect from your spirit. God Himself is both Spirit and Reason itself. "Reason" is literally what the word "logos" means. The two are neither mutually exclusive nor at odds with one another.
Having other nations rule over Israel was only done to punish the entire nation, not the king in particular. Some kings of Israel were so deplorable for so long that Israel stopped temple worship to the point that they forgot that the Torah even existed. (See II Kings 22).
The fact that I apprehend and believe the following....
- God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
- We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
- Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
- Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
- Jesus rose from the dead.
- If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
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Derf
Well-known member
2 Chronicles 33:9-11 KJV — So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the LORD had destroyed before the children of Israel. And the LORD spake to Manasseh, and to his people: but they would not hearken. Wherefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon.
That's not what Paul said.
| 1Corinthians 2: 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. |
How does any person discern spiritual truth? By having spiritual discernment and that comes from the HS. not our intellect. Why. Because the natural man doesn't understand spiritual concepts no matter how great his intellect.
You've completely misunderstood the passage.
Go back and read from the beginning of the chapter.
Hmmmm.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. |
I see nothing out of context with the previous verses.
Derf
Well-known member
Are you saying a person has to already have the spirit in order to believe?
What is the context of what Paul is saying?
He is speaking to the wisdom of God and omniscience of God and how only the HS knows the mind of God
In my understanding it's sort of a chicken egg experience. The thief on the cross obviously didn't have God in his life before he was hung on his cross, but yet he was obviously influenced by Him while hanging there otherwise he could never have asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom.
Go ahead and explain this to me as haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.
Derf
Well-known member
Do you think that the influence of the Spirit means he HAD the Spirit?
And do you think the other thief had that same influence?
Yes, at least the way I understand it.
No the other thief did not accept the gift of salvation so he rejected the work of the HS.
He's talking about Jesus INTENTIONALLY hiding his true purpose from the Jews in order to make it to the cross.
Note verses 7-8:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 - New King James Version
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Paul is using how God hid the fact that He was coming to save the world from their sins to show that unless you seek God, you aren't going to be able to discern spiritual truths. That means actually using one's brain to try to comprehend.
It's why Jesus healed the woman's daughter after calling her a Gentile dog, because in response to His actions, she had faith, and used her mind to engage with Him rationally. She didn't just blindly accept what she was told.
Also, Paul rather explicitly states:
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8:1, Romans 8:2, Romans 8:3, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:5, Romans 8:6, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:8, Romans 8:9, Romans 8:10, Romans 8:11 - New King James Version
Free from Indwelling Sin - There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
In other words: if you walk in the flesh, you will never understand the things of the Spirit.
Derf
Well-known member
Then it's not the Holy Spirit's influence that made the difference, right? Iow, the Spirit influenced both of them, but one accepted the work of the Spirit, while other rejected the same work of the same Spirit.
Do you agree?
I don't believe that is so. Jesus said He would ask His Father and He would send us another comforter.
| John 16: 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. |
The job of the HS is to convict of sin and of righteousness. Human nature didn't change after the cross so that before the cross people were saved the same we way are today. That's the point of Paul speaking to spiritual discernment.