God's law in the Bible
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
popsthebuilder
New member
And does that mean we cannot discuss these differences?
peace
Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk
nikolai_42
Well-known member
You don't believe what? The same Savior came to fulfill the Law. The same Savior declared "It is finished" on the tree at Calvary. The apostle Paul contrasts the righteousness of the Law with the righteousness of faith this way :
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:4-10
Obedience is a given...but not because of the law.
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
Romans 16:25-27
Romans 4 makes it clear that faith and Law cannot coexist in the context of obedience. The obedience of faith is NOT the same thing as the righteousness of the Law. The righteousness of the Law is owed (of debt says Romans 4:4 - earned). The righteousness and obedience of faith are of another character and founded on something different - even though the upshot is that the Law is still fulfilled in faith. We don't fulfill it, Christ has.
Shalom.
I am a Jew. I observe the 613 Commandments of Torah. The new covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts, in Yeshua HaMashiach, Yeshua Messiah.
The first commandment is I am Yahveh your God. You shall have no other gods before Me.
Shalom.
Jacob
Shalom.You don't believe what? The same Savior came to fulfill the Law. The same Savior declared "It is finished" on the tree at Calvary. The apostle Paul contrasts the righteousness of the Law with the righteousness of faith this way :
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:4-10
Obedience is a given...but not because of the law.
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
Romans 16:25-27
Romans 4 makes it clear that faith and Law cannot coexist in the context of obedience. The obedience of faith is NOT the same thing as the righteousness of the Law. The righteousness of the Law is owed (of debt says Romans 4:4 - earned). The righteousness and obedience of faith are of another character and founded on something different - even though the upshot is that the Law is still fulfilled in faith. We don't fulfill it, Christ has.
Are you familiar with Romans 8: (1-)4?
Shalom.
Jacob
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Yes. It says exactly what I was saying - Christ fulfilled the Law. We being in Him have it fulfilled in us because of Him. Not because of our obedience. The Spirit of God that indwells the believer is what impels man to believe and obey - not reading and determining to obey. That's why Paul said this to the Corinthians:
Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
2 Corinthians 10:1-6
Nothing in that speaks of "read and obey". It is a spiritual thing exclusively (with physical outworking, of course). It is the work of God in us - not our own determination.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12
Shalom.Yes. It says exactly what I was saying - Christ fulfilled the Law. We being in Him have it fulfilled in us because of Him. Not because of our obedience. The Spirit of God that indwells the believer is what impels man to believe and obey - not reading and determining to obey. That's why Paul said this to the Corinthians:
Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
2 Corinthians 10:1-6
Nothing in that speaks of "read and obey". It is a spiritual thing exclusively (with physical outworking, of course). It is the work of God in us - not our own determination.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12
Are you familiar with the Hebrew word for hear, which is shema? What do you obey?
Shalom.
Jacob
glorydaz
Well-known member
Quote the whole thing. It is good when used "lawfully". He warns of people like you who desire to be teachers of the law...understanding "neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."
1 Timothy 1:7-9
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
The law was made for sinners. "It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come.." The purpose of the law is to show men their sin (find them guilty), then lead them to faith in Christ.
Paul makes it clear, it was never meant to justify, make men holy (sanctify), or give life.
Shalom.
Paul said that the Law is good, two to three times. It must be used lawfully. If you have sinned, the Law condemns and corrects. Sin is transgression of the law. If you are sinning and trying to teach the Law, that is not good. Jesus did instruct us to observe and teach God's commandments.
Shalom.
Jacob
popsthebuilder
New member
First; I'd like to thank you for responding even though we have different perspectives. More specifically for keeping a level of mutual respect or courtesy.
To me a Jew is one from the heart. I think you might agree with this. So it follows that a Jew is a believer in the GOD of Abraham, regardless of physical lineage.
If I understand you correctly; you consider the 613 written commands written in the Torah to be utterly synonymous with the law written on the heart of the believer. Is that correct?
If so then I have one question.
Before you had ever read or been otherwise shown by man, the commands of the Torah; did you wholly know them in recognisable form from your own heart?
Could you explain the following statement please?
"written on minds and hearts, in Yeshua"
Indeed, loving the One Creator GOD of all existence would keep one from idol worship of any form or sort.
You are a messianic Jew, are you not?
You understand the Christ of GOD as the Savior of needy man and the Way towards GOD and the Light that guides the lost, among other things, right?
peace
Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk
Shalom.
I am a convert and proselyte to Israel and Judaism. I am not a Messianic Jew. I do not eat meat and dairy in the same meal, which is Orthodox. I have read the Torah (Hebrew, English) from the Bema at the congregation I attend in Tacoma, Washington. I live in Lakewood, Washington. I have known the congregation to be Messianic, but I have seen Judaism and I am a convert to Judaism. Yeshua is the Messiah. A Jew is one who is one inwardly, true. The new covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts. Read Jeremiah and the Gospels. I accept the TaNaKh and Matthew through Revelation. I do not remember which I heard first or referenced first in my life or online, even the internet, and / or the world wide web. I did think at one time, I think, that in the new covenant all people know the LORD. Can I ask which you were taught first, or if you know that you are in covenant with God, or a part of a covenant, or which covenants you know of?
I do not know the difference between God's Law, the Law, and God's law in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Shalom.
Jacob
Last edited:
Shalom.
You have a good question. The Law of Moses or the Torah (The Five Books of Moses) contain God's commands or commandments. The Torah has 613 Commandments, or laws. I do not know what you mean by two sets of laws. There are 1050 Commandments in Matthew through Revelation. Start with the Torah or the TaNaKh.
Shalom.
Jacob
popsthebuilder
New member
The covenant the I was taught was a personal one and one of mercy on the behalf of GOD, and not by my own merit. It wasn't taught by church or people or gullibility or indoctrination or fear by the hands of man. I was an adament atheist who was in desperate need of help and guidance.
The covenant that I know of is that GOD is always there for us, that we are not forsaken, and that GOD loves us and we are to love in return, not in idol word, but in our hearts, manifesting in action and word, not to our glorying or reward, but to the glorying of GOD.
I would also likely note an oath that is different than a covenant, and that I don't suggest any do.
I believe Israel, in the spiritual sense, is comprised of believers that span time and geography. Zealous believers comes to mind; faithful lovers of GOD.
Though the law is written in our heart. I don't think it is synonymous with the letters of the written law in my opinion. I think the tradition Pharisees and Saducees horny my up on the letters of the Word, and completely went astray due to this and pride. Such seems very evident to me throughout the whole Bible (Torah + new covenant).
I look forward to your response and in no way mean any disrespect to your faith or beliefs.
peace
Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk
nikolai_42
Well-known member
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:15-17
You'll notice that Paul is talking here about obedience and how the obedience of those that were under the law has gained them life (obedience unto righteousness). If he is saying "do this and live" or "do this and you will be righteous" then there is no difference between his message and the message of Sinai. Yet this same Paul said this :
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Galatians 4:21-31
Sinai and the law is here in view - and the covenant that went with it. Paul makes it clear that that covenant is not consonant with the new covenant in Christ's blood. So when he says this :
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Galatians 5:16-17
...he is using the same terminology he just finished using at the end of Galatians 4 above. The one born of the flesh and the one born of the Spirit are two distinct people and that is where the difference lies in terms of belonging to God. The one tries to please God by his own obedience but the other walks in that which God has prepared for him (Ephesians 2:10). Otherwise, why not just say this (instead of what he did write in Galatians 5:16) :
Obey what you are told and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh
Shalom.
I encourage you to study the covenants of God from, and by reading, scripture.
Shalom.
Jacob
popsthebuilder
New member
I read sacred texts very often. The Bible is admittedly the one I read the most.
Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk
popsthebuilder
New member
Genesis: 1. 28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Genesis: 7. 1. And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2. Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk