God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

[6days]

God never refers to Himself in plural. He's the I AM

Jesus said* "if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins. John 8:24
Crucible..... Don't you wonder why it annoyed the religious leaders when Jesus kept saying "I AM..." ?
John 8:58* "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
John 6:51: I am the living bread
John 8:23:* I AM from above.*.. I am not of this world.
John 8:12:* I AM the light of the world.
John 10:9:* I AM the door.
John 10:11: I AM the good shepherd..
John 10:36:* I am the Son of God?
John 11:25:* I AM the resurrection and the life.
John 14:6:* I AM the way, the truth, and the life.
John 15:1:* I AM the true vine
John 19:2:* I am the King of the Jews

you can't just insert the Trinity or some other thing wherever you want*

I agree... But we need to look at the claims Jesus made.....read scripture, and make sure we understand who Jesus is. *

Throughout both OT and NT we see that Jesus is God. Jesus has every attribute that God the Father does.
Jesus is omnipotent
He has "all authority"...Matthew 28:18

Jesus is omnipresent
"Where 2 or 3...I am there" Matt. 18:20

Jesus is omniscient.
John 1:48-50 Jesus knew where Nathaniel was.

Jesus is called God.
"Of the Son he(God the Father) says, "Thy throne oh God..."" Heb. 1:8
And,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
So the Word WAS GOD...... then compare to v14... the Word became human

Jesus is also called 'Lord'. Matt. 22:43-45

Jesus is the 'King of kings and Lord of lords'. Rev. 19:16

Jesus receives worship from angels and humans
.."Let all the angels of God worship Him" Heb. 1:6
And...
"At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, of those who are in Heaven, and those on earth, and under the earth."
Phil. 2:10

Jesus claimed to be equal to his father.
"I and the Father are one." John 10:30

Jesus is the mighty God and the everlasting Father Is.9:6

Jesus is the Creator. Col. 1:16

Jesus forgives sin Luke 7:48

 

[jamie]

The literal interpretation of John 3:16 is a misunderstanding that comes from lack of experience with the soul.

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Do you believe this?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Do you believe this?

A better question might be this.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[Crucible]

Jesus said* "if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins. John 8:24
Crucible..... Don't you wonder why it annoyed the religious leaders when Jesus kept saying "I AM..." ?
John 8:58* "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
John 6:51: I am the living bread
John 8:23:* I AM from above.*.. I am not of this world.
John 8:12:* I AM the light of the world.
John 10:9:* I AM the door.
John 10:11: I AM the good shepherd..
John 10:36:* I am the Son of God?
John 11:25:* I AM the resurrection and the life.
John 14:6:* I AM the way, the truth, and the life.
John 15:1:* I AM the true vine
John 19:2:* I am the King of the Jews

I agree... But we need to look at the claims Jesus made.....read scripture, and make sure we understand who Jesus is. *

Throughout both OT and NT we see that Jesus is God. Jesus has every attribute that God the Father does.
Jesus is omnipotent
He has "all authority"...Matthew 28:18

Jesus is omnipresent
"Where 2 or 3...I am there" Matt. 18:20

Jesus is omniscient.
John 1:48-50 Jesus knew where Nathaniel was.

Jesus is called God.
"Of the Son he(God the Father) says, "Thy throne oh God..."" Heb. 1:8
And,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
So the Word WAS GOD...... then compare to v14... the Word became human

Jesus is also called 'Lord'. Matt. 22:43-45

Jesus is the 'King of kings and Lord of lords'. Rev. 19:16

Jesus receives worship from angels and humans
.."Let all the angels of God worship Him" Heb. 1:6
And...
"At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, of those who are in Heaven, and those on earth, and under the earth."
Phil. 2:10

Jesus claimed to be equal to his father.
"I and the Father are one." John 10:30

Jesus is the mighty God and the everlasting Father Is.9:6

Jesus is the Creator. Col. 1:16

Jesus forgives sin Luke 7:48

This discussion has not been about the Trinity in and of itself, the discussion has been about if God was talking to Himself, or speaking of the angels, when He said 'our image and likeness'.

The Trinity is deduced from referencing Isaiah alongside the New Testament. It's rather easy to 'checkmate' an anti-Trinitarian if you compare the right passages.
But people instead went to looking crazily too far into certain things, like what they've been arguing on here, out of not being able to show the Trinity the way it was deduced in the first place lain:

 

[Lilstu]

Likewise... we are amazed that authors throughout scripture refer to Biblical history as truth... yet evolutionists wish to dismiss it as allegorical. Even many atheists understand that if Adam and original sin is myth, the gospel is destroyed.

So my friend, 6 days, can I assume you always take the bible text literally?

 

[Lilstu]

Jesus said* "if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins. John 8:24
Crucible..... Don't you wonder why it annoyed the religious leaders when Jesus kept saying "I AM..." ?
John 8:58* "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
John 6:51: I am the living bread
John 8:23:* I AM from above.*.. I am not of this world.
John 8:12:* I AM the light of the world.
John 10:9:* I AM the door.
John 10:11: I AM the good shepherd..
John 10:36:* I am the Son of God?
John 11:25:* I AM the resurrection and the life.
John 14:6:* I AM the way, the truth, and the life.
John 15:1:* I AM the true vine
John 19:2:* I am the King of the Jews

I agree... But we need to look at the claims Jesus made.....read scripture, and make sure we understand who Jesus is. *

Throughout both OT and NT we see that Jesus is God. Jesus has every attribute that God the Father does.
Jesus is omnipotent
He has "all authority"...Matthew 28:18

Jesus is omnipresent
"Where 2 or 3...I am there" Matt. 18:20

Jesus is omniscient.
John 1:48-50 Jesus knew where Nathaniel was.

Jesus is called God.
"Of the Son he(God the Father) says, "Thy throne oh God..."" Heb. 1:8
And,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
So the Word WAS GOD...... then compare to v14... the Word became human

Jesus is also called 'Lord'. Matt. 22:43-45

Jesus is the 'King of kings and Lord of lords'. Rev. 19:16

Jesus receives worship from angels and humans
.."Let all the angels of God worship Him" Heb. 1:6
And...
"At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, of those who are in Heaven, and those on earth, and under the earth."
Phil. 2:10

Jesus claimed to be equal to his father.
"I and the Father are one." John 10:30

Jesus is the mighty God and the everlasting Father Is.9:6

Jesus is the Creator. Col. 1:16

Jesus forgives sin Luke 7:48

Here is another view of ""I AM"""

I am...ego eimi ....is sometimes translated as "I am he" or "I am the one"

John 9:9 (New American Standard Bible)
Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I am the one." [ego eimi] [The man born blind from birth]

So what would John 8:58 look like if "ego eimi" were translated as "I am the one." just as it is at John 9:9?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am the one.
Then Jesus might be saying that he was the Messiah who God chose to create even before Jesus was born, and in fact even before Abraham was born.

John 4:25-26 (New American Standard Bible)
25The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." [am He is ego eimi]

So Jesus is using ego eimi to declare his Messiahship in John 4:26 just as he is in John 8:58

 

[Lilstu]

Looking at ""I AM"" from a Jewish perspective.

Looking at ""I AM"" from a Jewish perspective.

In a Christian Bible, I AM ...John 8:58 ...matches up with Exodus 3:14
The Translators have translated to make it look like Jesus is saying he is God, although he never makes that claim for himself.

Has anyone ever checked out Exodus 3:14 in a Jewish Bible?
The Chabad Translation has "I will be what I will be"
The Stone Chumash has it "I shall be as I shall be."
Rashi rendered it as "I will be what I will be."
The Pentateuch by Hirsch, has it as "I shall be that which I will be."

The Jewish Bibles translate this phrase with a future tense, while Christian Bibles put it in the present tense. [I am]
Were the Christian translators influenced to create a match with John 8:58 ???
After all, Exodus is part of the Hebrew Scriptures of the Jews. It is really their book. Shouldn't their translation take precedence?

At the preceeding verse, Exodus 3:13, Moses says.."""Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"""
The sons of Israel may ask Moses....'""What is His name?"" because they did not know the God who was speaking to Moses.
IMO God's answer in the future tense..."I will be what I will be" is really a promise by God that in the future he will be who he will prove to be. As we know, God brought the plagues on Egypt, and delivered the sons of Israel from slavery. He promised...and he literally proved that he will be what he will be....God Almighty.

 

[6days]

So my friend, 6 days, can I assume you always take the bible text literally?

Most of the Bible is pretty simple to understand.

Examples.
"I lift up my eyes to the mountains" Psalm 121 Do you have difficulty knowing if this is literal, or not?

"in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth" Ex.20 Do you have difficulty knowing if this is literal, or not?

Listu... atheists (Like Jerry Coyne) like to point out and mock theistic Christians and 'Christian' groups Biologos and their inconsistent approach to scripture. They picks and chooses what to believe. They say both the virgin birth and the creation account are written as a factual account...Both events require a miracle....yet Biologos picks only one as true (Not all Biologos contributors believe both).

 

[Lilstu]

Most of the Bible is pretty simple to understand.

Examples.
"I lift up my eyes to the mountains" Psalm 121 Do you have difficulty knowing if this is literal, or not?

"in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth" Ex.20 Do you have difficulty knowing if this is literal, or not?

Listu... atheists (Like Jerry Coyne) like to point out and mock theistic Christians and 'Christian' groups Biologos and their inconsistent approach to scripture. They picks and chooses what to believe. They say both the virgin birth and the creation account are written as a factual account...Both events require a miracle....yet Biologos picks only one as true (Not all Biologos contributors believe both).

Dodging the question??? Literal or not?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Lilstu,

In a Christian Bible, I AM ...John 8:58 ...matches up with Exodus 3:14
The Translators have translated to make it look like Jesus is saying he is God, although he never makes that claim for himself.

Has anyone ever checked out Exodus 3:14 in a Jewish Bible?
The Chabad Translation has "I will be what I will be"
The Stone Chumash has it "I shall be as I shall be."
Rashi rendered it as "I will be what I will be."
The Pentateuch by Hirsch, has it as "I shall be that which I will be."

The Jewish Bibles translate this phrase with a future tense, while Christian Bibles put it in the present tense. [I am]
Were the Christian translators influenced to create a match with John 8:58 ???
After all, Exodus is part of the Hebrew Scriptures of the Jews. It is really their book. Shouldn't their translation take precedence?

At the preceeding verse, Exodus 3:13, Moses says.."""Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"""
The sons of Israel may ask Moses....'""What is His name?"" because they did not know the God who was speaking to Moses.
IMO God's answer in the future tense..."I will be what I will be" is really a promise by God that in the future he will be who he will prove to be. As we know, God brought the plagues on Egypt, and delivered the sons of Israel from slavery. He promised...and he literally proved that he will be what he will be....God Almighty.

I agree that we should carefully take the evidence of these Jewish translators. It is true that most “Christian” translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

The word “ehyeh” in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity as you have pointed out, so the teaching concerning God’s Name was that firstly Israel would be saved or delivered out of Egypt, but the Name also ultimately looked forward to the salvation that would be accomplished in Jesus, Yah’s Salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[6days]

Dodging the question??? Literal or not?

The question is dumb. I gave you an example of an author using metaphors describing a literal event in the same sentence. Do you question other historical books if they use metaphors? No...of course not. Its easy to understand by context.

The Bible is literal truth from front to back. {But like with other history books, figures of speech are used. (And, the Bible has more than just history books) Evolutionists seem to have no problem reading literature except when it comes to God's Word} God's Word is absolute truth.

I will ask the questions for you again.
"I lift up my eyes to the mountains" Psalm 121 Do you have difficulty knowing if this is literal, or not?

"in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth" Ex.20 Do you have difficulty knowing if this is literal, or not?

And, perhaps a new one.....1 Cor. 15 tells us "he rose again the third day. Is this literal, or not?

 

[Lilstu]

The question is dumb. I gave you an example of an author using metaphors describing a literal event in the same sentence. Do you question other historical books if they use metaphors? No...of course not. Its easy to understand by context.

The Bible is literal truth from front to back. {But like with other history books, figures of speech are used. (And, the Bible has more than just history books) Evolutionists seem to have no problem reading literature except when it comes to God's Word} God's Word is absolute truth.

I will ask the questions for you again.
"I lift up my eyes to the mountains" Psalm 121 Do you have difficulty knowing if this is literal, or not?

"in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth" Ex.20 Do you have difficulty knowing if this is literal, or not?

And, perhaps a new one.....1 Cor. 15 tells us "he rose again the third day. Is this literal, or not?

How about this.....
Matthew 4:8Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Is this literal?

 

[6days]

How about this.....
Matthew 4:8Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Is this literal?

You still didn't answer the questions.
Re. your verse from Matthew... What is your question? Did Satan take Jesus to a high vantage point / mountain? yes
Did Satan show "him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them?" Yes

 

[Ben Masada]

God made legions upon legions of ancient, powerful angels- all to deliver a couple messages.

Makes perfect sense

Angels are spiritual emanations; seen as beings no doubt, but only during dreams and visions. Revelations of God can be called angels or spirits; hence, they are not corporeal beings.

 

[beameup]

Angels are spiritual emanations; seen as beings no doubt, but only during dreams and visions. Revelations of God can be called angels or spirits; hence, they are not corporeal beings.

Do you "edit out" all references in the Tanakh where God the ruach 'elohim clearly spells-out for you that angels eat and drink and otherwise interact with humans?

For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed - Isaiah 29:10a & 11a

 

[Ben Masada]

Do you "edit out" all references in the Tanakh where God the ruach 'elohim clearly spells-out for you that angels eat and drink and otherwise interact with humans?

Please, show me the passages and I'll explain to you all over again that it was during a dream or vision that HaShem revealed Himself to His Prophets. But of course I understand where you come from and how you speak from
Christian preconceived notions.

 

[beameup]

Please, show me the passages and I'll explain to you all over again that it was during a dream or vision that HaShem revealed Himself to His Prophets. But of course I understand where you come from and how you speak from
Christian preconceived notions.

The Tanakh is replete with ruach 'elohim inspired verses which clearly show angels
and The Angel of the LORD interacting with mankind in a very concrete way.

I previously showed the fallicy of believing that Joshua (in full battle attire and ready to attack Jericho,
encountered and WORSHIPPED "The Angel of YHWH"), was sleeping and "dreaming" as you say. :rotfl:

 

[Prizebeatz1]

The Bible is literal truth from front to back.

No it isn't.