God is not a Man

[Apple7]

Getting back to Psalm 8 you have not yet addressed Psalm 8:5, where Yahweh and Elohim is separated when considering the creation of man. In this succinct summary by David of Genesis 1:26-27, the best translation of Elohim here is Angels. Now seeing you are an expert on languages and discovering the Trinity in obscure places, how do you understand this?
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou (Yahweh) hast made him a little lower than the angels (Elohim), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
This proves that Elohim in Genesis 1:1,26-27 includes Yahweh and the Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

Let’s review the term, mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm, which you want to be rendered as ‘angels’.

Its location as used in the verse in question…

For You have made him lack a little from God (mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm); and have crowned him with glory and honor. (Psalm 8.5)


Now…let’s compare the same exact term as used in the only two other places in scripture, as thus…


And he sent messengers to him, saying, What do I have to do with you, O king of Judah? I am not coming against you today, but toward the house with which I have war; and God said for me to hasten; stop yourself from opposing God (mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm), who is with me, and He shall not destroy you. (2 Chron 35.21)

Now…please tell us how many translators render mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as ‘angels’ in 2 Chron 35.21?

That’s correct…none.



And then burned the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram; his wrath burned against Job, because he had justified himself rather than God (mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm). (Job 32.2)

Now…please tell us how many translators render mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as ‘angels’ in Job 32.2?

That’s correct…none.


So…scripturally, we have thus established, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the Hebrew term, mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm, is to be rendered as God….NOT ‘angels’.



Let’s now move onto the verb, wat·tə·ḥas·sə·rê·hū, which you want to be a direct comparison to the verb used in the Gen 1 narrative.

Its location as used in the verse in question…

For You have made him lack (wat·tə·ḥas·sə·rê·hū) a little from God; and have crowned him with glory and honor. (Psalm 8.5)

‘Wat·tə·ḥas·sə·rê·hū’ is only used one time in the OT, and the verbal root and derivatives are used another 20 times in scripture.

The Hebrew verbal root is defined as ‘lacking, decrease, etc’.


Now….compare this to the Hebrew verb employed in the Gen 1 narrative …

Gen 1.26 - 27

And God said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. And God created (bara) the man in His own image; in the image of God He created (bara) him. He created (bara) them male and female.


The verb used here is ‘bara’, and, as a true creation verb, is used ONLY by God for creating brand new things….and is NOT used by angels.

Thus…because you are not a serious student of scripture, and you repeatedly fail to research the original languages of the scripture that you are arguing over, you have once again attempted to blend and compare two separate accounts which are unrelated to one another.

Facts:

• God has NO need to employ the help of His created angels while He is Creating, anything.
• The Second Person of the Trinity was NOT created.


Face it Trev….you have once again failed in your attempt to thwart The Trinity.

 

[Apple7]

Now the reason why I do not accept a plurality of Yahweh in Psalm 8 is because of the above, Psalm 8:5. First, this is the language of creation, but a careful consideration of Psalm 8 is that it takes the language of the creation as a framework to speak of the New Creation. God the Father, Yahweh makes Jesus the Son of God a little lower than the Angels. How and when this was done is clearly revealed in the following:
Luke 1:34-35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: [therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee[/u] shall be called the Son of God.

The incarnation was a Triune event, Trev...

Further, check the Greek verbs employed here, and you will see that they are NOT creation verbs.

 

[Apple7]

Now you like searching for passages where the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son of God are mentioned, here is one of the most important. This shows that God the Father is the father and Mary the mother in the conception, birth process by means of God’s power, the Holy Spirit and the result is the birth of the holy child, the literal Son of God, Jesus. No shrinking of the Second Person of the Trinity, but a normal conception and birth. Yahweh made Jesus a little lower than the Angels, because he was and is a man, not a God/man. He partook of the nature of Mary and was thus subject to mortality and the sentence that was imposed upon Adam and his descendants. As far as nature was concerned he was human flesh, subject to death, and thus lower in nature than the Angels.

A 'normal' conception, Trev...?

What meds are you on, again...?

You have not answered why the KJV, RV, NIV, NASB and ESV all translated Psalm 8:1 as “O LORD, our Lord” not “Lords”. Are these translations wrong, or is your understanding of Hebrew deficient? Did you get 51 out of 100 in your exam? Thus when I look at Psalm 8 I believe that it is talking about the One Yahweh, God the Father. I also use Psalm 110:1 to clearly distinguish between the One Yahweh as God the Father, and the son of David, yet David’s Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

A declaration of Yahweh to my Master: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool. Yahweh shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion to rule in the midst of Your enemies. Your people shall have willingness in the day of Your might; in the majesties of holiness; from the womb of the dawn, to You is the dew of Your youth. Yahweh has sworn and will not repent: You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. The Master at Your right hand shatters kings in the day of His anger. He shall judge among the nations; He shall fill with dead bodies; He shall shatter heads over much land. He shall drink out of the torrent on the way; therefore, He shall lift up the head. (Psalm 110.1 - 7)

Psalm 110 distinguishes between God The Father and God The Son, who was David’s Master (Adonee). That ‘Adonee’ is divine is provided by the fact that The Son will be a priest forever.

Jesus’ reference to Psalm 110 further distinguishes God The Spirit from God The Father and God The Son.

 

[CherubRam]

No.

The Hebrew word is ’ă·ḏō·nê·nū, which is PLURAL, and literally means 'Lords'...

[FONT=&quot]Adonai[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Adonai (אֲדֹנָי, lit. "My Lords") is the plural form of adon ("Lord") along with the first-person singular pronoun enclitic. As with Elohim, Adonai's grammatical form is usually explained as a plural of majesty. In the Hebrew Bible, it is nearly always used to refer to God (approximately 450 occurrences). As pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton came to be avoided in the Hellenistic period, Jews may have begun to drop the Tetragrammaton when presented alongside Adonai and subsequently expand it to cover for the Tetragrammaton in the forms of spoken prayer and written scripture. Owing to the expansion of chumra (the idea of "building a fence around the Torah"), Adonai itself has come to be too holy to say for Orthodox Jews, leading to its replacement by HaShem ("The Name").

The singular forms adon and adoni ("my lord") are used in the Hebrew Bible as royal titles, as in the First Book of Samuel, and for distinguished persons. The Phoenicians used it as a title of Tammuz, the origin of the Greek Adonis. It is also used very occasionally in Hebrew texts to refer to God (e.g. Ps 136:3.)[43]

Deuteronomy 10:17 has the proper name Yahweh alongside the superlative constructions "God of gods" elōhê ha-elōhîm and "Lord of lords" adōnê ha-adōnîm (כִּי יְ ה וָ ה אֱלֹֽהֵיכֶם הוּא אֱלֹהֵי הָֽאֱלֹהִים וַאֲדֹנֵי הָאֲדֹנִים ; KJV: "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords").

The final syllable of Adonai uses the vowel kamatz, rather than patach which would be expected from the Hebrew for "my lord(s)". Prof. Yoel Elitzur explains this as a normal transformation when a Hebrew word becomes a name, giving as other examples Nathan, Yitzchak, and Yigal.[/FONT]

 

[CherubRam]

[FONT=&quot]Royal or Majestic “we” in Hebrew[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

The "Let us" in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Genesis1:26[/FONT][FONT=&quot], can be easily explained by the following example:

I see a group of children sitting and I tell them, "Let us play soccer!"

It is I who did the talking to an audience.

And [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Genesis 1:27[/FONT][FONT=&quot] clarifies immediately by saying, "And God created man in His image"

Thus, it is still Yahwah who is Elohiym, who created man.

The majestic plural, also called the royal plural, is the use of a plural word, such as the pronoun we or us, to refer to a single person. The majestic plural emphasizes a member of royalty, referring to himself, saying, “We” instead of “I.”

The ancient Hebrews used the majestic plural, and some examples are found in the Old Testament. But the construction is not unique to Hebrew language alone.

The reason for the majestic plural is to indicate greatness, power, and prestige. It is normally reserved for use by nobles, kings, popes, and other persons of high rank when speaking in an official capacity.

In the Bible, we find four verses in which God refers to Himself using plural pronouns. The most well-known passage is [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Genesis 1:26[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: “Then God said, ‘Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness.’” See also [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Genesis 3:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Genesis 11:7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Isaiah 6:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. The One God is speaking of Himself in plural form, us and our. This is a perfect example of the majestic plural. God’s divine greatness is emphasized by use of pronouns.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

The Hebrew word is ’ă·ḏō·nê·nū, which is PLURAL, and literally means 'Lords'...

Is this any different to when we read elsewhere the LORD our God, where God here is a plural word and in this context is never translated as the LORD our Gods. If so, and I am sincerely asking you as a Hebrew scholar, is this in your opinion an intensive singular in both places, and the basis of why the KJV, RV, NIV, NASB and ESV all translate Psalm 8:1 as O LORD our Lord (singular). BTW I have heard another suggestion by one of my mentors of why Lord here is plural, but that is another story. Let’s try to agree first on the obvious.

Let’s review the term, mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm, which you want to be rendered as ‘angels’.
Its location as used in the verse in question…
For You have made him lack a little from God (mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm); and have crowned him with glory and honor. (Psalm 8.5)
Now…let’s compare the same exact term as used in the only two other places in scripture, as thus…
Now…please tell us how many translators render mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as ‘angels’ in 2 Chron 35.21? (and) in Job 32.2?
That’s correct…none.
So…scripturally, we have thus established, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the Hebrew term, mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm, is to be rendered as God….NOT ‘angels’.

Why then does the writer to the Hebrews quote, allude and base his argument on Psalm 8:5 in Hebrews 2 on the fact that Jesus was made a little lower than the Angels. If you had been in the meeting that first heard the letter to the Hebrews read, you as a Hebrew expert would have dismissed the letter, and said, on the basis of 2 Chronicles 35:21 and in Job 32:2 the writer has got his understanding of Psalm 8:5 all wrong, so we can dismiss this letter and return to Judaism and fight against these Romans in AD70.

The verb used here is ‘bara’, and, as a true creation verb, is used ONLY by God for creating brand new things….and is NOT used by angels.

Not sure how you prove this. I believe that God invited the Angels to cooperate in the creative process, and thus I reject your claim.

Thus…because you are not a serious student of scripture, and you repeatedly fail to research the original languages of the scripture that you are arguing over, you have once again attempted to blend and compare two separate accounts which are unrelated to one another.

Psalm 8:5 is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27 and are thus very much related.

Facts:
• God has NO need to employ the help of His created angels while He is Creating, anything.
• The Second Person of the Trinity was NOT created.

God has no need, but he delights to share his work and purpose with others. What is the meaning then of Psalm 8:5 that Jesus was made a little lower than Elohim? I believe that this is the new creation, and Luke 1:35 is one record of this creation.

Face it Trev….you have once again failed in your attempt to thwart The Trinity.

Or you have wielded the sword in the air and missed your target.

The incarnation was a Triune event, Trev...
Further, check the Greek verbs employed here, and you will see that they are NOT creation verbs.

The three appear, but not as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They appear as God the Father, the father of Jesus, and God’s power, the Holy Spirit used by God to cause the conception, and the outcome of this conception, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

A 'normal' conception, Trev...?
What meds are you on, again...?

Not normal in the ordinary sense, but a conception nevertheless. God the Father was the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit, and Mary was the mother.

A declaration of Yahweh to my Master: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool. Yahweh shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion to rule in the midst of Your enemies. Your people shall have willingness in the day of Your might; in the majesties of holiness; from the womb of the dawn, to You is the dew of Your youth. Yahweh has sworn and will not repent: You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. The Master at Your right hand shatters kings in the day of His anger. He shall judge among the nations; He shall fill with dead bodies; He shall shatter heads over much land. He shall drink out of the torrent on the way; therefore, He shall lift up the head. (Psalm 110.1 - 7)
Psalm 110 distinguishes between God The Father and God The Son, who was David’s Master (Adonee). That ‘Adonee’ is divine is provided by the fact that The Son will be a priest forever.
Jesus’ reference to Psalm 110 further distinguishes God The Spirit from God The Father and God The Son.

Psalm 110:1 clearly distinguishes between God the Father and the Son of God. Jesus attained to the role of King / Priest and he will live for ever after his crucifixion, death and resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of God.

Psalm 8:5 is one key to understanding Elohim in the OT, and this speaks of the role of the Angels. Another key is found in John 10:30-36 where Jesus speaks of where the Judges were also called gods or Elohim, because of their responsibility to faithfully administer the word of God in their judgements.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

[FONT="]Adonai[/FONT][/B][FONT="]
Adonai (אֲדֹנָי, lit. "My Lords") is the plural form of adon ("Lord") along with the first-person singular pronoun enclitic. As with Elohim, Adonai's grammatical form is usually explained as a plural of majesty. In the Hebrew Bible, it is nearly always used to refer to God (approximately 450 occurrences). As pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton came to be avoided in the Hellenistic period, Jews may have begun to drop the Tetragrammaton when presented alongside Adonai and subsequently expand it to cover for the Tetragrammaton in the forms of spoken prayer and written scripture. Owing to the expansion of chumra (the idea of "building a fence around the Torah"), Adonai itself has come to be too holy to say for Orthodox Jews, leading to its replacement by HaShem ("The Name").

The singular forms adon and adoni ("my lord") are used in the Hebrew Bible as royal titles, as in the First Book of Samuel, and for distinguished persons. The Phoenicians used it as a title of Tammuz, the origin of the Greek Adonis. It is also used very occasionally in Hebrew texts to refer to God (e.g. Ps 136:3.)[43]

Deuteronomy 10:17 has the proper name Yahweh alongside the superlative constructions "God of gods" elōhê ha-elōhîm and "Lord of lords" adōnê ha-adōnîm (כִּי יְ ה וָ ה אֱלֹֽהֵיכֶם הוּא אֱלֹהֵי הָֽאֱלֹהִים וַאֲדֹנֵי הָאֲדֹנִים ; KJV: "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords").

The final syllable of Adonai uses the vowel kamatz, rather than patach which would be expected from the Hebrew for "my lord(s)". Prof. Yoel Elitzur explains this as a normal transformation when a Hebrew word becomes a name, giving as other examples Nathan, Yitzchak, and Yigal.[/FONT]

Plagiarize wiki much...?

 

[Apple7]

[FONT="]Royal or Majestic “we” in Hebrew[/FONT][/B][FONT="]

The "Let us" in [/FONT][FONT="]Genesis1:26[/FONT][FONT="], can be easily explained by the following example:

I see a group of children sitting and I tell them, "Let us play soccer!"

It is I who did the talking to an audience.

And [/FONT][FONT="]Genesis 1:27[/FONT][FONT="] clarifies immediately by saying, "And God created man in His image"

Thus, it is still Yahwah who is Elohiym, who created man.

The majestic plural, also called the royal plural, is the use of a plural word, such as the pronoun we or us, to refer to a single person. The majestic plural emphasizes a member of royalty, referring to himself, saying, “We” instead of “I.”

The ancient Hebrews used the majestic plural, and some examples are found in the Old Testament. But the construction is not unique to Hebrew language alone.

The reason for the majestic plural is to indicate greatness, power, and prestige. It is normally reserved for use by nobles, kings, popes, and other persons of high rank when speaking in an official capacity.

In the Bible, we find four verses in which God refers to Himself using plural pronouns. The most well-known passage is [/FONT][FONT="]Genesis 1:26[/FONT][FONT="]: “Then God said, ‘Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness.’” See also [/FONT][FONT="]Genesis 3:22[/FONT][FONT="]; [/FONT][FONT="]Genesis 11:7[/FONT][FONT="]; and [/FONT][FONT="]Isaiah 6:8[/FONT][FONT="]. The One God is speaking of Himself in plural form, us and our. This is a perfect example of the majestic plural. God’s divine greatness is emphasized by use of pronouns.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]

'Plural of Majesty' NEVER existed anywhere in the Ancient Near East (ANE)...

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, Is this any different to when we read elsewhere the LORD our God, where God here is a plural word and in this context is never translated as the LORD our Gods. If so, and I am sincerely asking you as a Hebrew scholar, is this in your opinion an intensive singular in both places, and the basis of why the KJV, RV, NIV, NASB and ESV all translate Psalm 8:1 as O LORD our Lord (singular). BTW I have heard another suggestion by one of my mentors of why Lord here is plural, but that is another story. Let’s try to agree first on the obvious.

Context determines the proper rendering.

This was already posted for you, but you couldn't be bothered earlier...


Yahweh, our Lords, how majestic is Your name in all the earth; who have set Your Glory above the heavens! Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings, You have founded strength, on account of Your adversaries, to destroy the enemy taking vengeance. When I look upon Your heavens, the creation of Your fingers: the moon and the stars which You have fixed; what is mankind that You are mindful of him, and The Son of Man, that You observe? For You have made him lack a little of God; and have crowned him with glory and honor. Caused him to rule over the creation of Your hands; You have put all under his feet: all flocks and oxen, and also the animals of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, all that pass through the sea. Yahweh, our Lords, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!


‘Fingers’ in Psalm 8.3 refers to The Holy Spirit. Moses worked miracles with the finger of God (Exo 8.19). Jesus worked miracles with the finger (Spirit) of God (Luke 11.20; Mat 12:28).

The 'Glory' obviously refers to The Son.

Thus...we have the Triune God revealed in Psalm 8.

Why then does the writer to the Hebrews quote, allude and base his argument on Psalm 8:5 in Hebrews 2 on the fact that Jesus was made a little lower than the Angels. If you had been in the meeting that first heard the letter to the Hebrews read, you as a Hebrew expert would have dismissed the letter, and said, on the basis of 2 Chronicles 35:21 and in Job 32:2 the writer has got his understanding of Psalm 8:5 all wrong, so we can dismiss this letter and return to Judaism and fight against these Romans in AD70.

Hebrews covers some of the same material as Psalm 8, and Psalm 8 covers some of the same material as Hebrews.

Each also covers different material.

Additionally....you will NOT find any 'CREATION of Jesus verbs' in the Greek of Hebrews.

We can see that you dropped your assertion in this regard rather quickly....as you were not prepared with a canned-reply...

Not sure how you prove this. I believe that God invited the Angels to cooperate in the creative process, and thus I reject your claim.

Angels cannot create, Trev.

This is a lame polemic used originally by Jews that wished to deny that Yahweh is Triune.

You are going to have to come up with some NEW polemics, if you want to 'convince' anyone of your worldview...

Psalm 8:5 is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27 and are thus very much related.

it appears that you have confused the terms ’ĕ·nō·wōš, and adam, in Psalm 8.4?

Remember context, Trev...

God has no need, but he delights to share his work and purpose with others. What is the meaning then of Psalm 8:5 that Jesus was made a little lower than Elohim? I believe that this is the new creation, and Luke 1:35 is one record of this creation.
Or you have wielded the sword in the air and missed your target.
The three appear, but not as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They appear as God the Father, the father of Jesus, and God’s power, the Holy Spirit used by God to cause the conception, and the outcome of this conception, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Not normal in the ordinary sense, but a conception nevertheless. God the Father was the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit, and Mary was the mother.

Psalm 110:1 clearly distinguishes between God the Father and the Son of God. Jesus attained to the role of King / Priest and he will live for ever after his crucifixion, death and resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of God.

Psalm 8:5 is one key to understanding Elohim in the OT, and this speaks of the role of the Angels. Another key is found in John 10:30-36 where Jesus speaks of where the Judges were also called gods or Elohim, because of their responsibility to faithfully administer the word of God in their judgements.

Kind regards
Trevor

Let's see your exegesis...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Context determines the proper rendering.
This was already posted for you, but you couldn't be bothered earlier...
[Psalm 8:1-9 (Apple7’s unique translation):] Yahweh, our Lords, Your Glory Your fingers: Your hands; Yahweh, our Lords, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!
‘Fingers’ in Psalm 8.3 refers to The Holy Spirit. Moses worked miracles with the finger of God (Exo 8.19). Jesus worked miracles with the finger (Spirit) of God (Luke 11.20; Mat 12:28).
The 'Glory' obviously refers to The Son.
Thus...we have the Triune God revealed in Psalm 8.

Firstly you have not responded to my question concerning the KJV, RV, NIV, NASB and ESV translating Psalm 8:1 as “Lord” (singular) instead of your “Lords” (plural). Secondly you seem to have reverted to your equating poetical and figurative language “fingers” for your so-called members of the Trinity.

Psalm 8 has two layers. The first is the Genesis creation, and the Psalm uses the language and the ideas from Genesis 1. The next layer speaks of the new creation and not only takes up the language and ideas from Genesis 1, but also takes into account the events of Genesis 3 and how these things would be overcome in the birth, death and exaltation of the Son of Man, the Son of God. Jesus was to be crowned with honour and glory after his resurrection.

Hebrews covers some of the same material as Psalm 8, and Psalm 8 covers some of the same material as Hebrews.
Each also covers different material.
Additionally....you will NOT find any 'CREATION of Jesus verbs' in the Greek of Hebrews.
We can see that you dropped your assertion in this regard rather quickly....as you were not prepared with a canned-reply...

Hebrews 2 expounds Psalm 8 and shows that the second layer is fully applicable to Jesus. I do not endorse that “create” means make something from nothing, but God can use his power to create. “Make” or “made” as in Psalm 8:5 and Hebrews 2 may have a different range than create, but the Holy Spirit came upon Mary to bring about the conception Luke 1:35. It has nothing to do with shrinking the 2nd Person of the Trinity into the womb of Mary.

Angels cannot create, Trev.
This is a lame polemic used originally by Jews that wished to deny that Yahweh is Triune.
You are going to have to come up with some NEW polemics, if you want to 'convince' anyone of your worldview...

The Angels would have been given the power to accomplish God’s work and as God invited the Angels to participate, then yes they did create. Ultimately it is God and His Power that creates. Julius Caesar concept: “I saw, I stooped, I conquered” – what one does through others, he does by himself.

it appears that you have confused the terms ’ĕ·nō·wōš, and adam, in Psalm 8.4?
Remember context, Trev...

Enosh only applies to the second layer, just as enemy only applies after the introduction of sin. Enosh is weak frail man, both mankind in general, but also Jesus in his mortality. Adam appears in the parallel term, Son of Man, and this is not only ultimately the unique title of Jesus who would fulfil God’s purpose in creation, but it is Son of Adam, and all that involved in his humanity, his frailty, his mortality. Context and theme.

Let's see your exegesis...

If you are asking about the Judges, the following is an introduction.
Jesus in John 10:30-36 also answers the Jews by speaking concerning the OT usage of the word “God”, “gods”, that is the Hebrew word “Elohim”. Jesus speaks concerning the fact that in the OT the judges were called God or gods. It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.

The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. A careful consideration of verses 30 and 36 show that Jesus is not claiming to be God, but the Son of God.
John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
He was united with His Father in character and works. Thus the term Elohim is used for both the Angels and the Judges and these are keys to unlock the usage of the word "Elohim" in the OT. Thus the word "Elohim" can be understood as the One God, the Father, Yahweh, who delights to work in and through numerous agents, including the Angels and Judges.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CherubRam]

Different bible translations: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Psalm 8:1

Different bible translations: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Psalm 8:9

It looks as all were translated as singular.

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7,
Firstly you have not responded to my question concerning the KJV, RV, NIV, NASB and ESV translating Psalm 8:1 as “Lord” (singular) instead of your “Lords” (plural).

The original Hebrew is plural, of which, is fact.

Any serious student of scripture always refers to the original languages, and does not take any rendering at face value - that is why we have so many renderings today.

The fact that the translators are Trinitarian tells you that they do not agree with you.

It is most interesting that you cannot seem to locate a NON-Trinitarian rendering in which to quote....why is that, Trev?

Perhaps you should contact them directly...

Secondly you seem to have reverted to your equating poetical and figurative language “fingers” for your so-called members of the Trinity.

The Triune God goes by numerous names and titles.

This was shown to you early on when you brought-up 'The Arm' of God, and I responded by showing you how this represents The Second Person of the Trinity.

You were even shown all the different names and titles of the Triune God as He led His people out of Egypt.

But...you couldn't be bothered by these facts...and you ran from them.

Here they are again.

Will you run again...?


Who delivered the people out of Egypt? (OT/NT):
• Yahweh Elohim (Exo 6.7, 20.2)
• Yahweh (Exo 3.4, 6.6, 3.7-8, 13, 26, 7.5, 12.17, 42, 51, 13.8, 9, 14, 16, ; Deut 1.27, 4.20, 5.6, 15, 6.12, 8.14, 9.7, Judges 2.12, 6.8, 13, 10.11; Joshua 24.6, 17; 1 Sam 8.8, 10.18, 12.6-8; 2 Sam 7.5 – 6; 1 Kings 8.9 – 16, 21, 9.9; 2 Kings 17.7, 36; Jer 2.6, 7.22, 11.4- 7, 16.14, 23.7, 31.31-32, 34.13, Psalm 81.10, 2 Chron 6.5, 7.22, Amos 2.10, 3.1, 9.7; Zech 10.10, Micah 6.4)
• Arm of Yahweh SON (Exo 6.6, 15.16, Deut 5.15, 2 Kings 17.37, Jer 32.21, Acts 13.17, )
• Haelohim (all the Gods) (Exo 3.1; 1 Chron 17.21,
• Power of Yahweh SPIRIT (Deut 4.37, 2 Kings 17.37, )
• Presence (Deut 4.37,
• My Hand SPIRIT (Exo 7.4-5, 13.3,9, 14, 16, Deut 5.15, 6.21, 9.26, Eze 20.6, Jer 32.21, Dan 9.15, Acts 7.35,
• Adonay Yahweh (1 Kings 8.53)
• Adoney Elohim (Dan 9.15,
• God (Acts 7.35,
• Lord (Heb 8.9,
• Debar Yahweh, The Word of God SON (Deut 5.5 – 6)
• The Word (Haggai 2.5)
• Spirit (Haggai 2.5)
• Malek Yahweh SON (Exo 3.4, Judges 2.1, Acts 7.35,)
• Jesus SON (Jude 1.5)
• I AM (Exo 3.14)
• Elohe (Exo 3.6,
• Father (Deut 32.6




How about the Trinity in Ezekiel?

We have the Son proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Word (Eze 1.3)
• Also called the Glory (Eze 1.28)
• The Glory has the appearance of a Man (Eze 1.26 – 28)
• Compare how the NT refers to the Son as the Glory & the Word (John 1.14; Heb 1.3)
• Ezekiel states that the Glory by the river (Eze 1.3, 28) is the same Glory as mentioned throughout the book (Eze 3.22 – 23; 10.18 – 20; 43.3)


We have the Spirit proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Man that is portrayed in (Eze 8.1 - 3) is also mentioned in (Eze 40.3)
• The Man is a representation of the Spirit (Eze 8.2 – 3; 43.5 – 6)
• The Hand of Yahweh is also the Spirit (Eze 3.14; 8.3; 37.1)
• The Man and the Glory are often associated with Yahweh
• We have the Man bringing Ezekiel back to the east gate (Eze 44.1)
• Prior to this, the Man was w/Ezekiel by the east gate (Eze 43.1)


We have the Trinity proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Spirit & the Glory are mentioned together – but at the same time, distinction is made between them (Eze 1.28 – 2.2; 3.12 – 14, 23 – 24; 8.3 – 4; 10.18 – 11.1, 22 – 23; 43.1 – 5)
• The Man quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 44.6; 45.9, 18; 46.1, 16; 47.13)
• The Glory quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 3.11 – 12; 11.5; 43.18, 19, 27)
• The Man (Eze 44.1) referred the Glory, and went through the east gate into the temple (Eze 43.2 – 5), as Yahweh the Father (Eze 44.2)
• Therefore, the Glory (the Word) is the Son
• The Man (The Hand of Yahweh) is the Spirit
• Yahweh is the Father




No doubt...you will continue to ignore and run from the plethora of Trinity proof texts.....because that is what you do best...

 

[Apple7]

Psalm 8 has two layers. The first is the Genesis creation, and the Psalm uses the language and the ideas from Genesis 1. The next layer speaks of the new creation and not only takes up the language and ideas from Genesis 1, but also takes into account the events of Genesis 3 and how these things would be overcome in the birth, death and exaltation of the Son of Man, the Son of God. Jesus was to be crowned with honour and glory after his resurrection.
Hebrews 2 expounds Psalm 8 and shows that the second layer is fully applicable to Jesus. I do not endorse that “create” means make something from nothing, but God can use his power to create. “Make” or “made” as in Psalm 8:5 and Hebrews 2 may have a different range than create, but the Holy Spirit came upon Mary to bring about the conception Luke 1:35. It has nothing to do with shrinking the 2nd Person of the Trinity into the womb of Mary.

H1254
בּרא
bârâ'
BDB Definition:
1) to create, shape, form
1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1a1) of heaven and earth
1a2) of individual man
1a3) of new conditions and circumstances
1a4) of transformations
1b) (Niphal) to be created
1b1) of heaven and earth
1b2) of birth
1b3) of something new
1b4) of miracles
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to cut down
1c2) to cut out
2) to be fat
2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 278

 

[Apple7]

The Angels would have been given the power to accomplish God’s work and as God invited the Angels to participate, then yes they did create. Ultimately it is God and His Power that creates. Julius Caesar concept: “I saw, I stooped, I conquered” – what one does through others, he does by himself.

No, Trev.....mere angels cannot create.

Angels are creations themselves.

You cannot even bring forth a single, solitary scriptural example showing mere angles creating something.

Enosh only applies to the second layer, just as enemy only applies after the introduction of sin. Enosh is weak frail man, both mankind in general, but also Jesus in his mortality. Adam appears in the parallel term, Son of Man, and this is not only ultimately the unique title of Jesus who would fulfil God’s purpose in creation, but it is Son of Adam, and all that involved in his humanity, his frailty, his mortality. Context and theme.

Speak to the Hebrew, Trev...

A careful consideration of verses 30 and 36 show that Jesus is not claiming to be God, but the Son of God.

Jesus is declared to be God here...

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

The original Hebrew is plural, of which, is fact.
Any serious student of scripture always refers to the original languages, and does not take any rendering at face value - that is why we have so many renderings today.
The fact that the translators are Trinitarian tells you that they do not agree with you.
It is most interesting that you cannot seem to locate a NON-Trinitarian rendering in which to quote....why is that, Trev?
Perhaps you should contact them directly...

I mentioned before that one of my mentors once mentioned before that “Lord” (KJV) in Psalm 8:1 is actually plural, and although he did not give a comprehensive explanation at the time, he hinted at the meaning. In my discussion with you I drew attention to the fact that 5 respected Trinitarian translations have rendered this as “O LORD, our Lord”, and CherubRam has backed this up with 20 or more translations. I suggested that this could be an intensive singular, and is parallel to Yahweh our Elohim being translated as Yahweh our God, not Yahweh our Gods, or Yahweh our Mighty Ones, despite the fact that Elohim here is plural.

Yes, I am deficient when it comes to Hebrew and Greek. I can look up words, but I cannot readily decipher Hebrew phrases, such as the “our” in “O LORD our Lord”. Now in my life I have had three Hebrew scholars with whom I have had some contact and interaction. The first when I was 19, when he led a YPs’ weekend series on the Bible teaching concerning God and God manifestation, and some mention was made of an explanation of Yahweh and Elohim. Some years later he mentioned the plural in Psalm 8:1, but it was typical of his method, to give us a clue, and then let us do our own research. The second Hebrew scholar was an English brother who became a member of our meeting for a while. He had learnt Hebrew and had lived in Israel for a year. He would read the OT by reading directly from his Hebrew Bible, and would occasionally comment on any attempt by our expositors who had only tentative knowledge of Hebrew. Thus he was more proficient in practical Hebrew, rather than study of the exact meaning of a particular Scripture. The third is a Hebrew scholar, and he has spent some time analysing the Hebrew language at University level, and would most probably be able to discuss on your level. Would you like him to join in and answer some of your postulations that seem obscure and very speculative from my perspective? He may not volunteer even if I asked him.

I reverted to the concept that Yahweh our Elohim is an intensive singular, but in my fellowship some of our Hebrew scholars have translated this as Yahweh our Mighty Ones, and also explained that the underlining meaning of the Yahweh Name is best translated as “He will be” rather than the popular “I AM”. Now if our scholars are correct, and my personal checking at my level of Hebrew confirms this, then this opens up a wide ranging understanding of passages where Yahweh and Elohim occur, and adds meaning to some particular passages. My confirmation of the “He will be” translation of Yahweh is found in Exodus 3:12-14 and Exodus 6:1-8 where the KJV renders Ehyeh in verse 12 as "I will be" setting the context and meaning of verse 14 and Tyndale renders this as “I will be” in verses 12 and 14 and the same is suggested in the RV and RSV margins for verse 14. Exodus 6:1-8 confirm that the Yahweh Name is associated with the future activity of delivering Israel out of Egypt and bringing them into the Land.

Now you may help me here, but can the underlining meaning of Psalm 8:1 be rendered “O He who will be our Lords”? If so, then I will move from claiming that Psalm 8:1 is exclusively an intensive singular to the concept that Yahweh is developing out of the nations a people for His Name, who will be Kings and Priests in the Age to Come. Now this fits in with the message of Psalm 8 because it is speaking of the birth and development and ultimate success of Jesus so that creation will have its fulfilment and the rulership “have dominion” will be accomplished, when the transfer from the Father who is Lord of Heaven and earth is given to the Son of God. I believe that Psalm 8 was written to celebrate David’s victory over Goliath, an incipient transfer of the Kingdoms of Men to the Kingdom of God.

The Triune God goes by numerous names and titl es.
This was shown to you early on when you brought-up 'The Arm' of God, and I responded by showing you how this represents The Second Person of the Trinity.
You were even shown all the different names and titles of the Triune God as He led His people out of Egypt.
But...you couldn't be bothered by these facts...and you ran from them.
Here they are again.
Will you run again...? Who delivered the people out of Egypt? (OT/NT):
No doubt...you will continue to ignore and run from the plethora of Trinity proof texts.....because that is what you do best..

I am not running, but what I have introduced above becomes the basis of how I start to understand the many passages that relate to God’s revelation. I believe that there is One God, the Father, revealed in the OT as Yahweh, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Fit this template into all the passages that you quote and remove your syllogisms and replace them with an understanding of poetical and figurative language.

Due to the length of this post I will defer answering your next two posts. I am not sure what problem you have with Enosh, and why you complain about the Angels being active in the creation process if God invited them. The Power is God’s power, not their own. I appreciate the Greek at the end of the second post. If I quoted a passage in Mongolian how would you fare without using a translator?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, I mentioned before that one of my mentors once mentioned before that “Lord” (KJV) in Psalm 8:1 is actually plural, and although he did not give a comprehensive explanation at the time, he hinted at the meaning. In my discussion with you I drew attention to the fact that 5 respected Trinitarian translations have rendered this as “O LORD, our Lord”, and CherubRam has backed this up with 20 or more translations. I suggested that this could be an intensive singular, and is parallel to Yahweh our Elohim being translated as Yahweh our God, not Yahweh our Gods, or Yahweh our Mighty Ones, despite the fact that Elohim here is plural.

Hi Trevor...

Elohim is an entirely different word, and we are not dealing with that here.

The context of your example, Psalm 8, is what determines how the Hebrew should best be rendered, as 'Our Lords'...

Yes, I am deficient when it comes to Hebrew and Greek. I can look up words, but I cannot readily decipher Hebrew phrases, such as the “our” in “O LORD our Lord”. Now in my life I have had three Hebrew scholars with whom I have had some contact and interaction. The first when I was 19, when he led a YPs’ weekend series on the Bible teaching concerning God and God manifestation, and some mention was made of an explanation of Yahweh and Elohim. Some years later he mentioned the plural in Psalm 8:1, but it was typical of his method, to give us a clue, and then let us do our own research. The second Hebrew scholar was an English brother who became a member of our meeting for a while. He had learnt Hebrew and had lived in Israel for a year. He would read the OT by reading directly from his Hebrew Bible, and would occasionally comment on any attempt by our expositors who had only tentative knowledge of Hebrew. Thus he was more proficient in practical Hebrew, rather than study of the exact meaning of a particular Scripture. The third is a Hebrew scholar, and he has spent some time analysing the Hebrew language at University level, and would most probably be able to discuss on your level. Would you like him to join in and answer some of your postulations that seem obscure and very speculative from my perspective? He may not volunteer even if I asked him.

Sounds good....

I reverted to the concept that Yahweh our Elohim is an intensive singular, but in my fellowship some of our Hebrew scholars have translated this as Yahweh our Mighty Ones, and also explained that the underlining meaning of the Yahweh Name is best translated as “He will be” rather than the popular “I AM”. Now if our scholars are correct, and my personal checking at my level of Hebrew confirms this, then this opens up a wide ranging understanding of passages where Yahweh and Elohim occur, and adds meaning to some particular passages. My confirmation of the “He will be” translation of Yahweh is found in Exodus 3:12-14 and Exodus 6:1-8 where the KJV renders Ehyeh in verse 12 as "I will be" setting the context and meaning of verse 14 and Tyndale renders this as “I will be” in verses 12 and 14 and the same is suggested in the RV and RSV margins for verse 14. Exodus 6:1-8 confirm that the Yahweh Name is associated with the future activity of delivering Israel out of Egypt and bringing them into the Land.

'El Shaddai' is usually rendered as 'God of Mighty Ones'...and refers to The Second Person of The Trinity...

Now you may help me here, but can the underlining meaning of Psalm 8:1 be rendered “O He who will be our Lords”? If so, then I will move from claiming that Psalm 8:1 is exclusively an intensive singular to the concept that Yahweh is developing out of the nations a people for His Name, who will be Kings and Priests in the Age to Come. Now this fits in with the message of Psalm 8 because it is speaking of the birth and development and ultimate success of Jesus so that creation will have its fulfilment and the rulership “have dominion” will be accomplished, when the transfer from the Father who is Lord of Heaven and earth is given to the Son of God. I believe that Psalm 8 was written to celebrate David’s victory over Goliath, an incipient transfer of the Kingdoms of Men to the Kingdom of God.
I am not running, but what I have introduced above becomes the basis of how I start to understand the many passages that relate to God’s revelation. I believe that there is One God, the Father, revealed in the OT as Yahweh, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Fit this template into all the passages that you quote and remove your syllogisms and replace them with an understanding of poetical and figurative language.

God does not change, as we know, thus it would be rather odd to render a passage as something that He morphs into.

Do you have some grammars and/or lexicography for review?

 

[Apple7]

Due to the length of this post I will defer answering your next two posts. I am not sure what problem you have with Enosh, and why you complain about the Angels being active in the creation process if God invited them. The Power is God’s power, not their own. I appreciate the Greek at the end of the second post. If I quoted a passage in Mongolian how would you fare without using a translator?

Kind regards
Trevor

Digging further, your Psalm 8 example really decimates your position, altogether.

Comparing the sequence of creation events in Psalm 8, to that of Gen 1, places The Son of Man, The Second Person of The Trinity, on earth during these events!

Psalm 8, rather than informing the reader that Jesus was created, makes Jesus out to be The Creator!

Sequence of events:

• ‘Day 4’, Gen 1.14 -19, moon, stars…..matches Psalm 8.3, moon, stars.
• ‘Day 6’, Gen 1.26 – 27, Adam was created in the IMAGE & LIKENESS of The Triune God (plural Us)….matches Psalm 8.4 Son of Adam (Second Person of The Trinity) appointed as overseer.
• Day 6, Gen 1.28 – 31, rule over God’s creation; i.e. beasts of the earth, birds of the heavens, fish of the seas….matches Psalm 8.6 – 8, rule over God’s creation, i.e. beasts of the earth, birds of the heavens, fish of the seas.



Scripture further informs the reader that the IMAGE role model is none other than Jesus Christ…

Who is the image and likeness of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation(ktiseōs). (Col 1.15)


Confirming this, is Mark...

And answering, Jesus said to them, With respect to your hardheartedness he wrote this command to you. But from the beginning of creation (ktiseōs),"God made them male and female." Mark 10.5 -6


Thus...we can easily see that Jesus existed at the time of Adam and Eve.


That Jesus is the Creator is revealed in many passages, such as this one...


οτι εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα εν τοις ουρανοις και επι της γης τα ορατα και τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτε εξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται

hoti en autō ektisthē ta panta en tois ouranois kai epi tēs gēs ta horata kai ta aorata eite thronoi eite kyriotētes eite archai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eis auton ektistai

For by Him all things were created; by that in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities; all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1.16)


Three separate and distinct primary prepositions are used to describe Jesus’ creative power (i.e. ‘en’, ‘di’, & ‘eis’).

Three separate prepositions were used here to make it crystal clear that three separate modes of operation are in effect at the same time.

In each case, the preposition is flanked by the masculine singular, ‘auto’.

The first instance of ‘auto’ is in the dative singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is the object of the primary preposition, ‘en’, rendered as ‘by’.

The second instance of ‘auto’ is in the genitive singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is in direct possession of the creative act – i.e. He is in complete control of it – and is attached to the preposition ‘di’ rendered as, ‘through’.

The third instance of ‘auto’ is in the accusative singular masculine, again indicating that Jesus is the direct object of the preposition, ‘eis’, rendered as ‘for’.

Thus, from this Biblical verse alone, creation is By, Through, and For Jesus Christ all at the same time…indicating, yet, again, that He is the Triune creator God of the Universe.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Elohim is an entirely different word, and we are not dealing with that here.

I realise it is different, but it is plural and is usually translated as singular.

The context of your example, Psalm 8, is what determines how the Hebrew should best be rendered, as 'Our Lords'...

But you have a different perspective of Psalm 8 as you seek to read the Trinity in Psalm 8. I suggest that Psalm 8 teaches that Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator and that Jesus is the Son of Man and the Son of God.

'El Shaddai' is usually rendered as 'God of Mighty Ones'...and refers to The Second Person of The Trinity...

Elohim has been translated by some as Mighty Ones, the plural of Eloah. El Shaddai is another name or title for Yahweh. It has nothing to do with the Trinity, or the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

God does not change, as we know, thus it would be rather odd to render a passage as something that He morphs into.

The NT equivalent of Yahweh is Father. When a father has a child, the father does not morph into the child, but the child is a product of the father and mother. God is the Creator of all things and eventually He will be All in all 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Do you have some grammars and/or lexicography for review?

As stated before, my level is looking up words only.

Digging further, your Psalm 8 example really decimates your position, altogether.

I will not go further into this Post, as I do not believe Jesus pre-existed. I will let someone else answer your view that Jesus was the Creator in Genesis 1. I believe that the Creator was the One God, the Father, Yahweh.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7,
I realise it is different, but it is plural and is usually translated as singular.

That is why it is prudent for any serious student of scripture to ALWAYS consult the original languages.

A one-word-rendering is often times a gross misrepresentation of the possible meaning(s) of an original word.

But you have a different perspective of Psalm 8 as you seek to read the Trinity in Psalm 8. I suggest that Psalm 8 teaches that Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator and that Jesus is the Son of Man and the Son of God.

Even you have to admit that the sequence in Psalm 8 matches that of Gen 1, and places The Second Person of The Trinity on earth as the IMAGE & LIKENESS to which Adam was created.

Thus...to any rational person, Jesus existed in the OT.

Elohim has been translated by some as Mighty Ones, the plural of Eloah. El Shaddai is another name or title for Yahweh. It has nothing to do with the Trinity, or the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

El Shaddai has everything to do with The Trinity.

Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, also the Son, revealed to Moses that He was ‘I AM’ and Yahweh (Exo 3.14 – 15, 6.3).

The NT equivalent of Yahweh is Father. When a father has a child, the father does not morph into the child, but the child is a product of the father and mother. God is the Creator of all things and eventually He will be All in all 1 Corinthians 15:28.
As stated before, my level is looking up words only.
I will not go further into this Post, as I do not believe Jesus pre-existed. I will let someone else answer your view that Jesus was the Creator in Genesis 1. I believe that the Creator was the One God, the Father, Yahweh.

Kind regards
Trevor

Who, but you, ever claimed that God The Father 'morphs' into God The Son?!

Little wonder that The Trinity is a stumbling block for you, as your premise is entirely incorrect to begin with.

How many years have you been chasing that straw man?


Here's another Biblical example, for the road, of Jesus Christ existing in the OT...



Jacob wrestles with The God-man

You can see exactly how the sum-total of scripture informs the reader exactly who Jacob wrestled with, and this is with the Second Person of the Trinity, The Son:

• The Word of Yahweh (1 Kings 18.31)
• Yahweh (2 Kings 17.34)
• Malek ‘Messenger’ (Hosea 12.4)
• Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 32.28)
• Man (Gen 32.24)




Gen 32.24 - 30

And Jacob was left alone. And a Man wrestled with him until the ascending of the dawn. And He saw that He had not prevailed against him. And He touched on his hip socket, and Jacob's hip socket was unhinged as he wrestled with Him. And He said, Send Me away, for the dawn has ascended. And he said, I will not let You go unless You bless me. And He said to him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob. And He said, Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have wrestled with God and with men, and have prevailed. And Jacob asked and said, Please reveal Your name. And He said, Why this that you ask about My name? And He blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Face of God, because I saw God face to face, and my life is delivered. And the sun rose on him as he passed over Penuel (plural faces!), and he was limping on his thigh.

• The man with whom Jacob wrestled, said that Jacob had wrestled with God (Gen 32.28)
• Jacob believed that the man was telling the truth (Gen 32.30)
• Jacob said that the man he wrestled, was God – that he had seen God face to face (Gen 32.30)
• The man with whom Jacob wrestled, changed Jacob’s name to Israel (Gen 32.28)…compare to (1Ki 18.31; 2 Ki 17.34) which both state that Yahweh changed Jacob’s name
• Jacob wrestled with The Elohim-man
• Jacob wrestled with The Yahweh-man
• Jacob wrestled with The God-man
• Jacob wrestled with The Word of God
• Jacob wrestled with The second person of the Trinity, The Son

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

That is why it is prudent for any serious student of scripture to ALWAYS consult the original languages.
A one-word-rendering is often times a gross misrepresentation of the possible meaning(s) of an original word.

But you have not answered why all the Trinitarian translations have rendered Psalm 8:1 O LORD our Lord. You hide behind your supposed superior translation and claim that your interpretation must be correct because you are reading this in the original language. But your translation does not agree with everyone else. I have suggested two reasons why I reject your imposing the Trinity into Psalm 8:1. The first is that it is a Hebrew idiom or unique language concept, that is, an emphatic singular. The second that it is prophetic of He who will be rulers. I prefer the second, but I suggest that the 20 or more translators are suggesting the first. NONE of them have endorsed your view.

Even you have to admit that the sequence in Psalm 8 matches that of Gen 1, and places The Second Person of The Trinity on earth as the IMAGE & LIKENESS to which Adam was created.
Thus...to any rational person, Jesus existed in the OT.

But Jesus was made in the image and likeness of God his Father when he was conceived and born Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:21, John 1:14. Psalm 8 is one of the most quoted OT Scripture in the NT. Perhaps you should consider Hebrews 2 and 1 Corinthians 15 and see how this Psalm is fulfilled. David’s victory over Goliath was a foreshadowing of the greater victory over the flesh, when Jesus crucified the flesh and overcame sin in all its manifestations.

El Shaddai has everything to do with The Trinity.
Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, also the Son, revealed to Moses that He was ‘I AM’ and Yahweh (Exo 3.14 – 15, 6.3).

I believe that El Shaddai represents the Strength of the Powerful Ones, and indicates that God the Father, Yahweh, El, is the power or strength behind the angels that visited Abraham, and Abraham witnessed their strength to sustain, to help, and if necessary bring judgement on the wicked.

Who, but you, ever claimed that God The Father 'morphs' into God The Son?!
Little wonder that The Trinity is a stumbling block for you, as your premise is entirely incorrect to begin with.
How many years have you been chasing that straw man?

As I stated before I was introduced to some of these concepts when I was 19, and I am a bit older now. I am very reticent to accept the word “morphs” as it implies to me that God the Father changes and becomes something else. I believe that God the Father has a Son, the Son of God, not God the Son. Thus Exodus 3:14 is “I will be”, not “I AM”. I have already mentioned that Ehyeh is translated as “I will be” in Exodus 3:12 in the KJV, and in Exodus 3:12 and 14 by Tyndale, and Exodus 3:14 margins of the RV and RSV. You are a Hebrew scholar and could check this with your knowledge of the original languages, but you want to maintain your Trinitarian bias when it suits your cause. I also drew attention to the association of the future aspect of the Name Yahweh with the future deliverance of Israel out of Egypt and their inheritance of the land in Exodus 6:1-8.

The immediate revelation of God’s future deliverance associated with the Yahweh Name is fulfilled when Yahweh, He will become is fulfilled and Moses says “He has become our salvation”:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

But the Yahweh Name continues on after the deliverance from Egypt and has the greater fulfilment in Jesus, through whom Yahweh is salvation:
Psalm 118:14,21-26 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Yah-sous or Yahoshua): for he shall save his people from their sins.

Here's another Biblical example, for the road, of Jesus Christ existing in the OT...
Jacob wrestles with The God-man
You can see exactly how the sum-total of scripture informs the reader exactly who Jacob wrestled with, and this is with the Second Person of the Trinity, The Son:
• The Word of Yahweh (1 Kings 18.31)
• Yahweh (2 Kings 17.34)
• Malek ‘Messenger’ (Hosea 12.4)
• Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 32.28)
• Man (Gen 32.24)

Yes Hosea 12:4 identifies that Jacob wrestled with an Angel, and I have already shown that the word Elohim is applicable to both Angels and Judges because they represent Yahweh and act and speak on Yahweh’s behalf.

Kind regards
Trevor