God is not a Man

[Apple7]

Greetings Apple7,
My explanation of Exodus 15:3 is that it is most probably figurative language and does not need to be absolutely literal, just as we speak of the “arm” of the LORD. Does God the Father, Yahweh have a literal arm? The other alternative is that the word does not have to be narrowly defined as “man”, as it could have a wider range, but I will not initially check my meagre language resources.

Exodus 15:3 is commemorating the deliverance of Israel out of Egypt after crossing the Red Sea. Are you suggesting that God changed back and forth from a Divine form into a human form? If so, could you suggest a few OT occasions when God was revealed as a man or human form, especially in the era of the deliverance of Israel from Egypt? A few Bible references may help.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hi TrevorL,

Most people miss it entirely, but the 'Arm of God' is The Second Person of the Trinity, in the OT.

Jesus even declares this of Himself in the NT(John 12.36 -38).

Additionally, 'The Hand of God', is The Third Person of The Trinity.

The Egypt/Red Sea exodus is actually a massive study that I have hitting on and off lately, and, undeniably, is performed via The Triune God.

To address your initial query regarding Yahweh being a MAN in the OT, it is entirely literal, and NOT a metaphor.

Let’s let context inform the reader that this is hardly a ‘metaphor’…

Then Moses and the sons of Israel sang this song to Yahweh, and spoke, saying, I will sing to Yahweh, for He is highly exalted. He has thrown the horse and his rider into the sea. My strength and song is Yahweh, and it happened, He was to me salvation; this is my God and I will glorify Him; the God of my father, and I will exalt Him. Yahweh is a Man of war; Yahweh is His name. He has cast Pharaoh's chariots and his army in the sea; and the choice ones of his officers are drowned in the Sea of Reeds, the depths cover them; they have dropped into the depths like a stone. (Exo 15.1 – 5)

This is the Song of Moses and it summarizes the events which occurred at the parting of the sea.

Exo 14.19 declares that it was Malek haelohim (literally Messenger of ‘all the Gods’) who led the camp of Israel across the sea. As we already comprehend, this is just another term for Malek Yahweh – which refers to Jesus.

So…Jesus is being referred to yet again as a MAN.

Further proving the point, this time in the NT, is Revelation, as thus…

And I saw, as a glassy sea having been mixed with fire. And the ones overcoming the beast, and its image, and its mark, of the number of its name, were standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty, righteous and true are Your ways, King of the saints. Who will not fear You, Lord, and glorify Your name? For You only are holy. For all the nations will come and will worship before You, because Your righteousnesses were made known. (Rev 15.2 – 4)


Here we have The Song of Moses – which refers to Yahweh as a MAN in the OT – combined with The Song of The Lamb – which refers to Yahweh as a MAN in the NT!!!

Simple, Biblical truth.

Further proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that The Triune God of the Holy Bible led His people out of Egypt and across the Red Sea, I have complied (albeit, not exhaustive yet) a list of names and titles scripture uses to describe the Three Persons of the Godhead, as thus...

Who delivered the people out of Egypt? (OT/NT):

• Yahweh Elohim (Exo 6.7, 20.2)
• Yahweh (Exo 3.4, 6.6, 13, 26, 7.5, 12.42, 51, 13.8, 9, 14, 16, ; Deut 1.27, 4.20, 5.6, 15, 6.12, 8.14, 9.7, Judges 2.12, 6.8, 13, 10.11; Joshua 24.6, 17; 1 Sam 8.8, 10.18, 12.6-8; 2 Sam 7.5 – 6; 1 Kings 8.9 – 16, 21, 9.9; 2 Kings 17.7, 36; Jer 2.6, 7.22, 11.4- 7, 16.14, 23.7, 31.31-32, 34.13, Psalm 81.10, 2 Chron 6.5, 7.22, Amos 2.10, 3.1, 9.7; Zech 10.10, Micah 6.4)
• Arm of Yahweh SON (Exo 6.6, 15.16, Deut 5.15, 2 Kings 17.37, Jer 32.21, Acts 13.17)
• Haelohim (all the Gods) (Exo 3.1; 1 Chron 17.21)
• Power of Yahweh SPIRIT (Deut 4.37, 2 Kings 17.37)
• Presence (Deut 4.37)
• My Hand SPIRIT (Exo 7.4-5, 13.3,9, 14, 16, Deut 5.15, 6.21, 9.26, Eze 20.6, Jer 32.21, Dan 9.15, Acts 7.35)
• Adonay Yahweh (1 Kings 8.53)
• Adoney Elohim (Dan 9.15)
• God (Acts 7.35)
• Lord (Heb 8.9)
• Debar Yahweh, The Word of God SON (Deut 5.5 – 6)
• The Word (Haggai 2.5)
• Spirit (Haggai 2.5)
• Malek Yahweh SON (Exo 3.4, Judges 2.1, Acts 7.35)
• Jesus SON (Jude 1.5)
• I AM (Exo 3.14)
• Elohe (Exo 3.6)
• Father (Deut 32.6)


Its a real killer of a subject matter for those that deny The Trinity...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Most people miss it entirely, but the 'Arm of God' is The Second Person of the Trinity, in the OT.
Jesus even declares this of Himself in the NT(John 12.36 -38).
Additionally, 'The Hand of God', is The Third Person of The Trinity.
The Egypt/Red Sea exodus is actually a massive study that I have hitting on and off lately, and, undeniably, is performed via The Triune God.
To address your initial query regarding Yahweh being a MAN in the OT, it is entirely literal, and NOT a metaphor.
Its a real killer of a subject matter for those that deny The Trinity...

I appreciate your lengthy response, but I will not answer all that you have stated initially. I will concentrate on two aspects. My impression is still that “man of war” is a metaphor and does not teach that Yahweh, God the Father who promised to deliver Israel out of Egypt transformed Himself into a man or human form to deliver them. Rather I see it as a metaphor, or a pictorial representation. When two armies met, often the leader or king would be at the head of his army and if proficient he would rout the enemy. This is a man of war. When God sent His Angel, and guided Moses and Aaron, God achieved the victory over Egypt by 10 plagues and the parting of the Red Sea. He did not assume human form and was not clothed with armour and was not wielding a sword, or mounted on a horse or in a chariot. Yet the figure that Yahweh was a Man of War is very picturesque and poetical. The climax of the overthrow of Pharaoh and his chariots was at the Red Sea, and it was if God by Himself had overthrown all the chariots as in a battle. The effect was the same. Moses under inspiration selects the correct poetic words.

John 12:36-38 is very instructive in understanding Isaiah 6 and the vision of the King upon His throne. Isaiah 6 is a remarkable prophecy of Jesus as the future King / Priest of the coming 1000 years. What is also remarkable is the interaction with Isaiah and his commission, and what needs to be considered is the outworking of all of Isaiah 6 both in Isaiah’s day, and principally in the first advent of Jesus, and the coming Kingdom. It has nothing to do with the Trinity as you claim.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, I appreciate your lengthy response, but I will not answer all that you have stated initially. I will concentrate on two aspects.

No problem, TrevorL....there is a lot of Trinitarian material there to digest....thanks for at least acknowledging it...

My impression is still that “man of war” is a metaphor and does not teach that Yahweh, God the Father who promised to deliver Israel out of Egypt transformed Himself into a man or human form to deliver them. Rather I see it as a metaphor, or a pictorial representation.

A couple of things...

First, as I already detailed, the formula, ‘ish milhamah’, ‘Man of War’, is a direct human attribute, as witnessed throughout scripture, as shown in ALL scriptures existing outside of Exo 15.3.

Thus....if you want to deny that this is anything but literal, then you would need a much more forceful denial, backed with scripture, in order to convince anyone of your worldview.

Secondly, where do you get the notion that God The Father 'transformed' Himself into a man to begin with?

This is not what ANY Trinitarian believes in to begin with.

Perhaps this is a straw man stumbling block of your own creation...

When two armies met, often the leader or king would be at the head of his army and if proficient he would rout the enemy. This is a man of war. When God sent His Angel, and guided Moses and Aaron, God achieved the victory over Egypt by 10 plagues and the parting of the Red Sea. He did not assume human form and was not clothed with armour and was not wielding a sword, or mounted on a horse or in a chariot. Yet the figure that Yahweh was a Man of War is very picturesque and poetical. The climax of the overthrow of Pharaoh and his chariots was at the Red Sea, and it was if God by Himself had overthrown all the chariots as in a battle. The effect was the same. Moses under inspiration selects the correct poetic words.

'When two armies meet'....like here...?


And it happened, when Joshua was beside Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked. And, behold! A Man stood in front of him, and His drawn sword was in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, Are You for us, or for our foes? And He said, No, for I now come as the Commander of the army of Yahweh. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped. And he said to Him, What does my Lord speak to His slave? And the Commander of the army of Yahweh said to Joshua, Take your shoe off your foot, for the place on which you are standing is holy. And Joshua did so. (Joshua 5.13 – 15)

Clearly, Joshua worshiped a commander of Yahweh's army, a MAN!

John 12:36-38 is very instructive in understanding Isaiah 6 and the vision of the King upon His throne. Isaiah 6 is a remarkable prophecy of Jesus as the future King / Priest of the coming 1000 years. What is also remarkable is the interaction with Isaiah and his commission, and what needs to be considered is the outworking of all of Isaiah 6 both in Isaiah’s day, and principally in the first advent of Jesus, and the coming Kingdom. It has nothing to do with the Trinity as you claim.

Kind regards
Trevor

Isaiah 6 is simply more Trinitarian scripture.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

No problem, TrevorL....there is a lot of Trinitarian material there to digest....thanks for at least acknowledging it...

Rather, I am suggesting that each passage should be considered carefully.

First, as I already detailed, the formula, ‘ish milhamah’, ‘Man of War’, is a direct human attribute, as witnessed throughout scripture, as shown in ALL scriptures existing outside of Exo 15.3.
Thus....if you want to deny that this is anything but literal, then you would need a much more forceful denial, backed with scripture, in order to convince anyone of your worldview.

I am not denying that “Man of War” means man of war, words are words. What I am suggesting is that it is figurative or poetical language, not literal.

Secondly, where do you get the notion that God The Father 'transformed' Himself into a man to begin with?
This is not what ANY Trinitarian believes in to begin with.
Perhaps this is a straw man stumbling block of your own creation...

As I believe that there is only one God, Yahweh, God the Father, then if you insist that God is literally a man of war, then that is what we have to accept. I believe that man of war is figurative and poetical.

'When two armies meet'....like here...?
Clearly, Joshua worshiped a commander of Yahweh's army, a MAN!

To what extent do you believe this Divine figure actually went forth in front of Joshua and his army? Did this Divine being, who appeared as a warrior actually use his sword in the battle? Was this commander actually a MAN! Or a Divine being, an Angel sent by God the Father? I believe he was an Angel.

Isaiah 6 is simply more Trinitarian scripture.

Rather, it is a Scripture that is wrongly applied or interpreted by Trinitarians. John 12:36-38 identifies the King in glory as Jesus. A careful consideration of Isaiah 6 shows that Jesus is enthroned in the Temple and the earth is filled with God’s glory. He is set forth as a King / Priest, and this is in contrast to the usurpation of Uzziah. Jesus will fulfill this role as King / Priest in the Temple in the 1000 years, when the earth will be filled with God’s glory.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, Rather, I am suggesting that each passage should be considered carefully.
I am not denying that “Man of War” means man of war, words are words. What I am suggesting is that it is figurative or poetical language, not literal.
As I believe that there is only one God, Yahweh, God the Father, then if you insist that God is literally a man of war, then that is what we have to accept. I believe that man of war is figurative and poetical.

Hi TrevorL...

As stated before, you will need a much more forceful rebuttal, buttressed with scripture, in order to sway anyone of your opinion.

Take your time, and come forth with a more convincing reply...

To what extent do you believe this Divine figure actually went forth in front of Joshua and his army? Did this Divine being, who appeared as a warrior actually use his sword in the battle? Was this commander actually a MAN! Or a Divine being, an Angel sent by God the Father? I believe he was an Angel.

What mere 'angel' is worshiped as God?

None.

Rather, it is a Scripture that is wrongly applied or interpreted by Trinitarians. John 12:36-38 identifies the King in glory as Jesus. A careful consideration of Isaiah 6 shows that Jesus is enthroned in the Temple and the earth is filled with God’s glory. He is set forth as a King / Priest, and this is in contrast to the usurpation of Uzziah. Jesus will fulfill this role as King / Priest in the Temple in the 1000 years, when the earth will be filled with God’s glory.

Kind regards
Trevor

Talk to scripture...

 

[God's Truth]

God is not a man

God is not a man: In Numbers 23:19; "God is not a man..." defies the possibility that Yahshua The Messiah is God. The text states that: Yahwah is not an ("iys / man) that He should lie, nor the son of (Adam / Man")...

Malachi 3:6
I (the LORD / Yahwah) do not change...

Hosea 11:9
I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you.

Psalm 80:17
Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself.

Matthew 26:64
"Yes, it is as you say," Yahshua replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Matthew 22:41
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Yahshua asked them, 42"What do you think about the Messiah ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'lord'? For he says, 44" 'The Lord said to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." 45If then David calls him 'lord,' how can he be his son?"



Matthew 1:1
[ The Genealogy of Yahshua the Messiah ] This is the genealogy of Yahshua the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:

Matthew 1:20
But after he had considered this, an (angel/ messenger) of (the Lord / Yahwah) appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:27
to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David.

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

John 13:16
Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yahshua: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
That word "equal" could be translated in other words, such as, "equated," or "counted," or "equality."And the word robbery can translate as "obtainable." If Yahshua states that "The Father is greater than I" and refers to his Father in prayer as "You, the only true God," in (John 17:3.) It's kind of obvious that he's not equal to the one who sent him. "God exalted him," he did not exalt himself !

Here is an alternate reading of Philippians 2:6. Who being in the form of God did not think equality with God as obtainable.

God is the name of no one because it is a title. There are many gods, real, or imagined. Scholars insert the article "a" whenever they think it should apply. God, or, a god. All of the sons of God are gods because they have life immortal. Yahshua said he was a son of God, so therefore he was a god. Nowhere in scripture does Yahshua ever say he is the Father or Holy Spirit, whom the Father is the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit also being a name title and not a personal name. Yahwah informs us of only one personal name for Himself, and that name is Yahwah.

Yahwah reveals His name to Moses
Exodus 3:13-15.
13 And Moses said to Elohiym, “Suppose I go to the siblings of the Israelites and say to them, 'The Elohiym of your forefathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?”
14 And Elohiym said to Moses, “The Living that Lives. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'The Living has sent me to you.”
15 And Elohiym also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, 'Yahwah, the Elohiym of your forefathers; the Elohiym of Abraham, the Elohiym of Isaac and the Elohiym of Jacob has sent me to you. That is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered, from generation to generation.”

Malachi 3:6
For I am (the Lord / Yahwah,) I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God is not a man that He should lie and change; God is a man that is sinless.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

As stated before, you will need a much more forceful rebuttal, buttressed with scripture, in order to sway anyone of your opinion.
Take your time, and come forth with a more convincing reply...

I appreciate that you have not accepted what I have stated, but I do not need to repeat my conviction. It is interesting to note your confidence in voting on everyone else’s behalf.

What mere 'angel' is worshiped as God? None.

The Angel at the bush was not a mere ‘angel’. He was the representative of Yahweh and spoke and acted on Yahweh, God the Father’s behalf.

Talk to scripture...

I have discussed some aspects of Isaiah 6 including the background and some of the terms in Isaiah 6, but you have not discussed this. You have simply rejected it, and so far all you have claimed is that “Isaiah 6 is simply more Trinitarian scripture” and the above comment. Take your time to have a proper consideration of Isaiah 6. I notice you seem to want to advertise the term “Trinity” and “Trinitarian”, possibly in your opinion to make up for the fact that these terms are not taught in either the OT and NT.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CherubRam]

God is not a man that He should lie and change; God is a man that is sinless.

John 1:1

Greek:
en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos

Interlinear:
en (in) arche (beginning) en (was) ho (the) logos (Word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (Word) en (was) pos (toward or with) ton (TON is a special definite article "the" meaning the one and only, it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek) theon (Divine Eternal) kai (and) theos (divine) en (was) ho (the) logos (Word)

In English we have:
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the (one or only) Divine Eternal, and divine was the Word.

The defining article "a" must be supplied for the English language, to define that there is another divine that is not the "Divine Eternal."

Why do translators drop off the definite article TON (the one or only) before Divine Eternal?

 

[God's Truth]

John 1:1

Greek:
en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos

Interlinear:
en (in) arche (beginning) en (was) ho (the) logos (Word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (Word) en (was) pos (toward or with) ton (TON is a special definite article "the" meaning the one and only, it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek) theon (Divine Eternal) kai (and) theos (divine) en (was) ho (the) logos (Word)

In English we have:
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the (one or only) Divine Eternal, and divine was the Word.

The defining article "a" must be supplied for the English language, to define that there is another divine that is not the "Divine Eternal."

Why do translators drop off the definite article TON (the one or only) before Divine Eternal?

It doesn't matter about your special learning and studying of grammar.

The words that come out of your mouth, are they you?

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, I appreciate that you have not accepted what I have stated, but I do not need to repeat my conviction. It is interesting to note your confidence in voting on everyone else’s behalf.

TrevorL...we are still waiting for you to scripturally buttress your worldview.

Repeating your unreferenced opinion won't sway anyone's mind...

The Angel at the bush was not a mere ‘angel’. He was the representative of Yahweh and spoke and acted on Yahweh, God the Father’s behalf.

That would be Malek Yahweh...i.e. the Second Person of The Trinity....which speaks as Yahweh Himself, because He is Yahweh.

The Triune God already occupied the Burning Bush to begin with...why would God The Father require a 'spokesperson' if He is already there?

Study up...

I have discussed some aspects of Isaiah 6 including the background and some of the terms in Isaiah 6, but you have not discussed this. You have simply rejected it, and so far all you have claimed is that “Isaiah 6 is simply more Trinitarian scripture” and the above comment. Take your time to have a proper consideration of Isaiah 6. I notice you seem to want to advertise the term “Trinity” and “Trinitarian”, possibly in your opinion to make up for the fact that these terms are not taught in either the OT and NT.

Kind regards
Trevor

You have yet to demonstrate anything scripturally.

We have pity on you...

 

[CherubRam]

It doesn't matter about your special learning and studying of grammar.

The words that come out of your mouth, are they you?

I am not pulling any rabbits out of the hat. It is what it is.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

That would be Malek Yahweh...i.e. the Second Person of The Trinity....which speaks as Yahweh Himself, because He is Yahweh.
The Triune God already occupied the Burning Bush to begin with...why would God The Father require a 'spokesperson' if He is already there?

Both Moses and Stephen state that it was an Angel of Yahweh that appeared unto Moses. An angel is a messenger with a message.
Exodus 3:2-6 (KJV): 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Acts 7:30-32 (KJV): 30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
Did Stephen believe and teach that this angel was the Second Person of the Trinity?

You have yet to demonstrate anything scripturally. We have pity on you...

Again in your imagination, you seem to need a crowd behind you. Do you need this supposed support? Sooner or later someone in the crowd will tap you on the shoulder and say that he does not agree with you. You have not responded to what I have stated concerning Isaiah 6. At the time when Isaiah saw the exalted King on the throne in the Temple, it says that the earth was full of the glory of Yahweh.
Isaiah 6:1-4 (KJV): 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Jesus is seated in the Temple as King / Priest, a role which he will fully assume when he returns again. The earth is not yet full of the glory of Yahweh, so it is speaking of the future Kingdom, when Jesus the Son of David and the Son of God rules upon the throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years. The visions of Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 6 are parallel passages, as they both speak of the future Kingdom, centred in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[God's Truth]

I am not pulling any rabbits out of the hat. It is what it is.

Jesus is the Word of God and is God, the one and only God who is the Father.

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, Both Moses and Stephen state that it was an Angel of Yahweh that appeared unto Moses. An angel is a messenger with a message.

Hi TrevorL,

Again, the Hebrew term is Malek Yahweh.

No mere 'angel' has the name Yahweh, unless it is Yahweh.

Stephen's reference to the same OT event, therefore, is to Malek Yahweh...and NOT a mere angel.

Exodus 3:2-6 (KJV): 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

TrevorL....now why would you go and quote an English Trinitarian rendering for your denial of it?!

This is commonly called hypocrisy.

Observe your ignorance of the original languages...


Exodus 3.1 - 6

And Moses was feeding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of The Gods, to Horeb. And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush. And he looked, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, and the thorn bush was not burned up! And Moses said, I will turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohim called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he feared to look upon The Gods.


These verses tell us plainly that Moses both saw and spoke with Malek Yahweh (i.e. God the Son) in the midst of the fire.

Observe that the Triune God occupies the Mount (Moses came to the mountain of all The Gods ‘Ha- Elohim’), as the terms Yahweh, Elohim, Malek Yahweh & Ha- Elohim (literally all The Gods!) are used interchangeably.

Who occupied the burning bush?

• Malek Yahweh
• Yahweh
• Elohim
• The Gods (Ha Elohim)

Acts 7:30-32 (KJV): 30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
Did Stephen believe and teach that this angel was the Second Person of the Trinity?
Again in your imagination, you seem to need a crowd behind you. Do you need this supposed support? Sooner or later someone in the crowd will tap you on the shoulder and say that he does not agree with you. You have not responded to what I have stated concerning Isaiah 6. At the time when Isaiah saw the exalted King on the throne in the Temple, it says that the earth was full of the glory of Yahweh.

Here we have scriptural confirmation that the One God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush is actually The Messenger of The Lord, Malek Yahweh, The Second Person of The Trinity, The Son…


Mark 12.26

But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?

Mark 12 informs the reader that God spoke to Moses from the burning bush.




Acts 7.30 - 39

And forty years being fulfilled to him, The Messenger of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. And seeing, Moses marveled at the sight. And he coming up to look, a voice of the Lord came to him: "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Ex. 3:6, 15 But becoming trembly, Moses did not dare to look. And the Lord said to him, "Loosen the sandal from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. I surely saw the affliction of My people in Egypt, and I have heard their groan, and I came down to pluck them out. And now, come, I will send you to" Egypt. Ex. 3:5, 7, 8a, 10a This Moses, whom they denied, saying, Who appointed you a ruler and a judge, this one God has sent as ruler and redeemer by the hand of the Messenger who appeared to him in the Bush. This one led them out, having worked wonders and miraculous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and forty years in the wilderness. This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, " The Lord your God will raise up a Prophet to you" "from your brothers, One like me." You shall hear Him. Deut. 18:15 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living Words to give to us, to whom our fathers did not desire to be subject, but thrust him away, and turned their hearts back to Egypt,


Acts 7 informs the reader that The Messenger of The Lord appeared and spoke to Moses from the burning bush.

Thus…The Messenger of The Lord is God.

Isaiah 6:1-4 (KJV): 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Jesus is seated in the Temple as King / Priest, a role which he will fully assume when he returns again. The earth is not yet full of the glory of Yahweh, so it is speaking of the future Kingdom, when Jesus the Son of David and the Son of God rules upon the throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years. The visions of Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 6 are parallel passages, as they both speak of the future Kingdom, centred in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

One 'Holy' for each Person of The Trinity.


Study up...Trev...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Again, the Hebrew term is Malek Yahweh.
No mere 'angel' has the name Yahweh, unless it is Yahweh.
Stephen's reference to the same OT event, therefore, is to Malek Yahweh...and NOT a mere angel.
Acts 7 informs the reader that The Messenger of The Lord appeared and spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Thus…The Messenger of The Lord is God.

A messenger is a messenger, not the Person who sends the message. What Trinitarian translation do you use to support your unusual claim? I checked the KJV, NASB, NIV and ESV and they all say "the angel of the LORD".

One 'Holy' for each Person of The Trinity.
Study up...Trev...

I suggest that it is emphasis, in the sense of Most Holy or very holy, and Yahweh of Hosts is Most Holy. This could be in contrast to the usurpation of Uzziah, who disregarded Yahweh's holiness in his usurpartation and has nothing to do with the Trinity here. My impression of your “study” is that you use your knowledge of Hebrew words and OT circumstances in a strong bias towards Trinitarianism. For example your unusual logic on Man of War. Please check with some of your mates if they agree with your reasoning and conclusions here. Now you claim that angel of Yahweh means God Himself. Please check with your mates, but I cannot accept your logic. Is your Avatar actually a picture of the certificate you received when you graduated from your Greek Philosophy and Trinitarian College, where they taught about the history and development of the Creeds and the Trinity teaching, and now you are trying to apply what you learnt to the OT? The Bible teaches a correct understanding of how God revealed Himself.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CherubRam]

Jesus is the Word of God and is God, the one and only God who is the Father.

That is not what scriptures say, or what Christ says.

 

[God's Truth]

That is not what scriptures say, or what Christ says.

The scriptures do say it. Jesus is the Word of God.

All who speak, their words are who they are, for out of the mouth is the over flow of the heart.

 

[CherubRam]

The scriptures do say it. Jesus is the Word of God.

All who speak, their words are who they are, for out of the mouth is the over flow of the heart.

Christ is called "The Word of God" because he speaks for Yahwah.

 

[NWL]

No mere 'angel' has the name Yahweh, unless it is Yahweh.

They can possess the name if they are coming in the Fathers name as a representative.

Here we have scriptural confirmation that the One God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush is actually The Messenger of The Lord, Malek Yahweh, The Second Person of The Trinity, The Son…

Mark 12.26

That is one interpretation, the one that is more likely is that the writer of mark is leaving out the the fine detail (that an angel was in fact the one speaking as a messenger) and is simply mentioning that God spoke. You know this.

Acts 7 informs the reader that The Messenger of The Lord appeared and spoke to Moses from the burning bush.

Thus…The Messenger of The Lord is God.

Assumption. Representatives who speak the words of their sender shouldn't be assumed to be the sender himself.

One 'Holy' for each Person of The Trinity.

Another assumption.

 

[God's Truth]

Christ is called "The Word of God" because he speaks for Yahwah.

Christ is the Word of God. He only does what the Father does. He only says what the Father says. He has the same names as God the Father. The Father and Jesus have the same Spirit. The scriptures even speak of the Father and Jesus interchangeably. Their works are the same. In fact, when you see Jesus you can say you see the Father.

Tell me, when you see Jesus are you ever going to wonder when you will see the Father? Are you ever going to wonder when you will see the Father?