ECT God decides who does or doesn't believe.

[genuineoriginal]

A true free will is free from coercion, not mere influences. A coercion cannot be denied and forces the choice to go in only one direction or choose only one option of all those available.

There are true heroes of past wars that have proved that there is no such thing as a coercion that cannot be denied through free will.

 

[intojoy]

Of the various passages I cited, take this one, for example...

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

We know from Acts and in various passages in Paul's writings that although that may have been Paul's heart's desire (in other words, his heart felt prayer, thus, those two phrasings in that passage), nevertheless, his had been a heartfelt desire towards God as to the salvation of Israel that God had NOT been able to grant him.

For while, on the one hand, God's own desire was /is "that all men be saved" 1 Tim. 2:4, on the other hand, man obviously has free will *.

Anyway, at this point, I will have to continue to hold to the understanding that it is the Believer's heart attitude that the various prayer, evangelism, etc., passages are attempting to focus the Believer on.

And why not?

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Seems to me an attitude of gratitude is what doing things in remembrance of Him, has always been God's desire as to the Believer's heart.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

And...

Philippians 1:12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel; 1:13 So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

The Believer's Heart Attitude!

At the same time, whether we are agreed or not on any of the above, whether
a little, or a lot, nevertheless, thank you for your contribution to the renewing of my mind on these things that your words set off in me, as I meditated on these issues once more, and in light of the Scripture on them.

Such is never a waste of time.

Such is ever a redeeming of the time.

Rom. 14:5 - in memory of Rom. 5:6-8 - in each our stead.

____________________

* And man o man what an expensive spending account said free will can be...

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

So this means God doesn’t answer prayers. Got it. I disagree friends. Jesus says we should ask in order to receive. He even says that continual asking will produce results. Furthermore you have not because you ask not. The whole idea of this heart attitude in prayer and in evangelism is just a copout to fit a preconceived foolish idea that God does not know the future. See the demonic thinking of open theism on display?


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[john w]

Because I’m born again.


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Again-non responsive-the lost, "non elect" can say that. That is no assurance, outside of yourself. Again:

How do you know that you are one of "the elect," "saved?"

 

[john w]

Is there a question here? I don’t care much for Charlie


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No, you "argued:"

There is no scripture evidence that teaches the elect were always saved.

You contradict what most idiot Calvinists assert.sx

 

[Danoh]

So this means God doesn’t answer prayers. Got it. I disagree friends. Jesus says we should ask in order to receive. He even says that continual asking will produce results. Furthermore you have not because you ask not. The whole idea of this heart attitude in prayer and in evangelism is just a copout to fit a preconceived foolish idea that God does not know the future. See the demonic thinking of open theism on display?


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Lol ya big ol lovable big Kahuna you.

:rotfl:

For the laugh is clearly on you in your having read things into a thing.

One, I have never held an Open Theist View (which is nothing more than a failure to understand the continued assertion of both Prophecy and Mystery that NOTHING EVER takes GOD by surprise).

You forget that the Acts 9 Mid-Acts I hold to is often at odds in understanding on one thing or another with that promoted on here as "MAD" by one individual, or another.

Fact is that many a Pastor-Teacher and their assemblies within Acts 9 MAD are NOT OV.

Heck, there are probably some of "like precious faith" in Hawaii.

Two, you are citing an understanding of prayer promises based on how God deals with His "sign" people: the Nation Israel.

Promises of THE PHYSICAL presently ON HOLD until at some point AFTER Rom. 11:25.

Three, per, say 2 Corinthians 5, if you desire that someone might know the Lord, then the thing to do is to go over there and get to beseeching them "in Christ's stead."

He is IN you, is He not?

Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Get tuh, preachin - the gospel of Christ!

:thumb:

Romans 5:6-8.

 

[john w]

I think you’re purposefully ignoring the moderate Calvinist position because you’re unable to deal with it unless you bundle it up with hyper Calvinist doctrine. You’re showing weakness.


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No, we know that you are side stepping.

You're demonic "logic"- You are "elect," but you may not be "saved," until you come to faith, which makes the definition of "elect" mute, irrelevant, nonsensical, and God is an idiot, like all you Calvinists.

Define "elect." Do be a dear.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Define "elect." Do be a dear.

No matter what one's soteriological view, the elect are those upon whom God has set His special preference upon, such that at the appointed time they will be (and cannot not be) regenerated and saved and not lost to Him.

For the anti-Calvinist, this "love before time" is all who call upon the name of the Lord per their own free choice (the elect), a choice that can also be to freely reject said calling upon the name of the Lord (the non-elect), in the fullness of time known only to God, from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News.

For the Reformed and/or Calvinist, this "love before time" for the elect is a finite, but great multitude that cannot be numbered, that will be, in the fullness of time known only to God, granted faith upon regeneration (Eze. 36:26), from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News. This grant of faith is necessary because all non-believers possess no moral rectitude to choose wisely given their fallen state in Adam:

Spoiler

The unregenerate is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2), must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5), cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2-1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2-3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14), and is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:15-20).

Per this regenerative action by God, via God the Holy Spirit, the regenerated person now possesses the moral rectitude to not not believe. Hence, he or she will believe of their own free choice because the grace extended to the regenerate is efficacious such that he or she will not genuinely want to not believe.

Prior to that exact moment in both instances above, all remain under the wrath of God (Eph. 2:3).

AMR

 

[john w]

No matter what one's soteriological view, the elect are those upon whom God has set His special preference upon, such that at the appointed time they will be (and cannot not be) regenerated and saved and not lost to Him.

For the anti-Calvinist, this "love before time" is all who call upon the name of the Lord per their own free choice (the elect), a choice that can also be to freely reject said calling upon the name of the Lord (the non-elect), in the fullness of time known only to God, from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News.

For the Reformed and/or Calvinist, this "love before time" for the elect is a finite, but great multitude that cannot be numbered, that will be, in the fullness of time known only to God, granted faith upon regeneration (Eze. 36:26), from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News. This grant of faith is necessary because all non-believers possess no moral rectitude to choose wisely given their fallen state in Adam:

Spoiler

The unregenerate is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2), must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5), cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2-1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2-3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14), and is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:15-20).

Per this regenerative action by God, via God the Holy Spirit, the regenerated person now possesses the moral rectitude to not not believe. Hence, he or she will believe of their own free choice because the grace extended to the regenerate is efficacious such that he or she will not genuinely want to not believe.

Prior to that exact moment in both instances above, all remain under the wrath of God (Eph. 2:3).

AMR

I did not ask you to define the term "elect." I asked intojoy, based on his/her "argument." Pay attention:

The elect are not saved until they come to faith. That’s what I was taught. There is no scripture evidence that teaches the elect were always saved. Paul claimed that we are seated in heavenly places but I think he meant he is so sure of the completion of our salvation that we are seen that way.

I countered:

Catch that bit of nonsense, TOL audience?

If they are "elect," by definition, they have no need to be saved, "delivered/preserved" from a danger, as they are already "elect," which, from the (perverted) Calvinist view, thus chosen as God's children, adopted, and "faith" is quite irrelevant.

So, just whom do you think you are talking to on this board? Your Uncle Joe, whoosamovin' kinda slow?

This is a prime example of the "logic," "reasoning," of these idiot Calvinists.

Catch that demonic "logic?" You are "elect," but you may not be "saved," until you come to faith, which makes the definition of "elect" mute, irrelevant, nonsensical, and God is an idiot, like all you Calvinists.

Define "elect." Do be a dear.

 

[intojoy]

Lol ya big ol lovable big Kahuna you.

:rotfl:

For the laugh is clearly on you in your having read things into a thing.

One, I have never held an Open Theist View (which is nothing more than a failure to understand the continued assertion of both Prophecy and Mystery that NOTHING EVER takes GOD by surprise).

You forget that the Acts 9 Mid-Acts I hold to is often at odds in understanding on one thing or another with that promoted on here as "MAD" by one individual, or another.

Fact is that many a Pastor-Teacher and their assemblies within Acts 9 MAD are NOT OV.

Heck, there are probably some of "like precious faith" in Hawaii.

Two, you are citing an understanding of prayer promises based on how God deals with His "sign" people: the Nation Israel.

Promises of THE PHYSICAL presently ON HOLD until at some point AFTER Rom. 11:25.

Three, per, say 2 Corinthians 5, if you desire that someone might know the Lord, then the thing to do is to go over there and get to beseeching them "in Christ's stead."

He is IN you, is He not?

Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Get tuh, preachin - the gospel of Christ!

:thumb:

Romans 5:6-8.

Well great. But JW is open theist. And it was his failed attempt at answering the assertion that God incorporated the means in the end result. That God used the evangelism of those like Billy G to be part of the process of the salvation of those he reached. It was a very weak suck attempt but I was gracious enough to say I could see how one could think that way.


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[intojoy]

No, you "argued:"




You contradict what most idiot Calvinists assert.sx

It’s called moderate Calvinism John. Look it up. In order for you to refute my belief you have to address the 4 point Calvinist view. Trying to group it together is simply laziness or a lack of care which is good, I don’t really care what AMR thinks because it’s wrong on many levels.


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[intojoy]

Again-non responsive-the lost, "non elect" can say that. That is no assurance, outside of yourself. Again:

How do you know that you are one of "the elect," "saved?"

Non elect cannot say they are born again. You might say you are non elect but you would be doctrinally incorrect DI that’s a good one. Lol


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[john w]

Non elect cannot say they are born again.

Sure they can. By definition, you cannot know whether they are, or not, unless you are God. So, them saying they are "born again," makes them no different than you, in terms of "proof."

Prove that you are "born again," "elect," by your own definition, and others are not. How do we know that you are "born again," which is your definition of being one of "the elect?"


You need to fold your hand.

 

[john w]

It’s called moderate Calvinism John. Look it up. In order for you to refute my belief you have to address the 4 point Calvinist view. Trying to group it together is simply laziness or a lack of care which is good, I don’t really care what AMR thinks because it’s wrong on many levels.


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No, you contradict what most idiot Calvinists assert.

Is that like "moderately" dead, alive, pregnant...?

There is no scripture evidence that teaches the elect were always saved.

There is not scriptural evidence that you can be "elect," and not "always saved," as "elect," by definition, means never being in danger of being "lost."

You're another idiot Clavinist/Calvinist, who cannot think straight. My evidence? You.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Non elect cannot say they are born again. You might say you are non elect but you would be doctrinally incorrect DI that’s a good one. Lol


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Don't be so NAIVE. No doubt, there are many people who go around saying they're 'Born Again' but they're not.

 

[john w]

Don't be so NAIVE. No doubt, there are many people who go around saying they're 'Born Again' but they're not.

And he assumes what must be proven.

 

[intojoy]

The theological definition of the term the elect: That portion of humanity whom God foreordained unto salvation from the mass of humanity that were condemned to hell and who are guaranteed immortality in this life until they hear the gospel and are saved.


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[john w]

The theological definition of the term the elect: That portion of humanity whom God foreordained unto salvation from the mass of humanity that were condemned to hell and who are guaranteed immortality in this life until they hear the gospel and are saved.

Vs. you, previously, on "As the Calvinist Spins...:"

There is no scripture evidence that teaches the elect were always saved.

Thus, "the elect," by definition, are/were never in danger of being lost, of not being delivered/preserved from a danger(the definition of "saved"/"salvation"). So, you/Calvinism is moronic, or the LORD God is a moron-no other option.

 

[john w]

The theological definition of the term the elect: That portion of humanity whom God foreordained unto salvation from the mass of humanity that were condemned to hell and who are guaranteed immortality in this life until they hear the gospel and are saved.


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Again-slight of hand...

You "chosen ones," "Elect Ones," to guaranteed salvation/immortality, by the LORD God, billions of years ago, were not really guaranteed salvation/immortality, by the LORD God, until they hear the gospel, and thus saved,so, elect does not mean guaranteed salvation/immortality, by the LORD God,as the Calvinist redefines the meaning of the words "elect," and makes the LORD God to be as much of an impotent moron, as they are, as the Calvinist asserts, "The elect are saved, but not until they are saved."


=Log in, lose your mind.

 

[john w]

The theological definition of the term the elect: That portion of humanity whom God foreordained unto salvation from the mass of humanity that were condemned to hell and who are guaranteed immortality in this life until they hear the gospel and are saved.


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Prove that you are "born again," "elect," by your own definition, and others are not. How do we know that you are "born again," guaranteed salvation/immortality,which is your definition of being one of "the elect?"

 

[Danoh]

The theological definition of the term the elect: That portion of humanity whom God foreordained unto salvation from the mass of humanity that were condemned to hell and who are guaranteed immortality in this life until they hear the gospel and are saved.


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Well, you did say that is "the theological definition..."

:chuckle:

Think I'll stick with Scripture, instead: Free Will.

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

I'm curious, you're big on the writings of brother Fruchtenbaum; does he also hold to this "theological definition" you are so enamoured with?

Thanks, in advance.

Rom. 5:6-8.