ECT God decides who does or doesn't believe.

[ttruscott]

There are true heroes of past wars that have proved that there is no such thing as a coercion that cannot be denied through free will.

The good I want to do I cannot. The evil I would not do, I do...

 

[ttruscott]

You "chosen ones," "Elect Ones," to guaranteed salvation/immortality, by the LORD God, billions of years ago, were not really guaranteed salvation/immortality, by the LORD God, until they hear the gospel, and thus saved...

Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

The phrase that HAS BEEN PROCLAIMED toevery creature under heaven uses a past tense that means "past and finished but is repeated into the future"...how about that? How does EVERY creature having heard the gospel fit with the idea that each person is created on earth at conception or birth and humans HAVE NOT HEARD until they are young children???

Let's just ignore the cognitive dissonance this verse creates for those who believe in the current "created on earth" theology and pretend this verse does not say what it clearly says!

Thus to those who believe this verse says every creature under heaven has heard the gospel already so we must have all heard it before human life which implies that our election is probably based upon an acceptance of the gospel and condemnation was based upon their rejection of YHWH's deity and rejection of the gospel promises.

Then life on earth is explained: all sinners were sent to prison earth for the elect sinners to become holy and then the non-elect sinners would be condemned so the heavenly marriage could begin, Matt 13, the parable of the good seeds and the evil tares.

Think of the good seeds...how are they good when they are sinful, liable to be pulled up by the judgement on the tares? None are good, not one, so this word in this place cannot mean 'morally good'! Therefore I suggest it must refer to their election as a place holder or true status holder for them when their sins are over and they are fully sanctified and holy. Both sets of seeds are sinful but the people of the kingdom are 'good' and the people of the evil one are 'condemned already...' How can that be?? I hope by now you understand how they can be born as 'good' when morally none are good and the tares are born evil and condemned, supposedly not having heard the gospel yet, sigh.

 

[Danoh]

Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

The phrase that HAS BEEN PROCLAIMED toevery creature under heaven uses a past tense that means "past and finished but is repeated into the future"...how about that? How does EVERY creature having heard the gospel fit with the idea that each person is created on earth at conception or birth and humans HAVE NOT HEARD until they are young children???

Let's just ignore the cognitive dissonance this verse creates for those who believe in the current "created on earth" theology and pretend this verse does not say what it clearly says!

Thus to those who believe this verse says every creature under heaven has heard the gospel already so we must have all heard it before human life which implies that our election is probably based upon an acceptance of the gospel and condemnation was based upon their rejection of YHWH's deity and rejection of the gospel promises.

Then life on earth is explained: all sinners were sent to prison earth for the elect sinners to become holy and then the non-elect sinners would be condemned so the heavenly marriage could begin, Matt 13, the parable of the good seeds and the evil tares.

Think of the good seeds...how are they good when they are sinful, liable to be pulled up by the judgement on the tares? None are good, not one, so this word in this place cannot mean 'morally good'! Therefore I suggest it must refer to their election as a place holder or true status holder for them when their sins are over and they are fully sanctified and holy. Both sets of seeds are sinful but the people of the kingdom are 'good' and the people of the evil one are 'condemned already...' How can that be?? I hope by now you understand how they can be born as 'good' when morally none are good and the tares are born evil and condemned, supposedly not having heard the gospel yet, sigh.

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

I sincerely doubt that "all" there included any Chinese; Japanese, Koreans; North and South American Natives, and so on.

The Apostle Paul had simply been referring to...

Acts 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Acts 19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

And here's that "all...the world" again.

Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

You must that know many many cultures did not even know of Greeks and or their religion.

But back to Paul...

Romans 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

After that, he ended up where?

Under house arrest.

Acts 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Shortly after which, he was martyred...

2 Timothy 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 4:9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:

But again, his use of "all" did not always refer to "all."

Case in point, again...

2 Timothy 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Well, not really "all..."

1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:

2 Timothy 4:9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me: 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry. 4:12 And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. 4:13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

2 Timothy 4:19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick. 4:21 Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.

Obviously, not "all which be in Asia...turned from" him.

Acts 17:11, 12.

 

[ttruscott]

I know all does not always = all but how then do we know when it does. The witness of the Holy Spirit leads us.... There is no proof in the scripture in that every verse can be contradicted by man, as it should be for we live by faith, not proof.

 

[Danoh]

I know all does not always = all but how then do we know when it does. The witness of the Holy Spirit leads us.... There is no proof in the scripture in that every verse can be contradicted by man, as it should be for we live by faith, not proof.

Take this how you might, or might not.

Personally, I enjoy challenge to my views and or understandings, but far often find very few up to the task.

Yours, at least in the above, is a case in point.

Doesn't have to be, but it is.

And doesn't mean that will always be the case.

But in the above, all you have done now is trade in your previous "one size fits all" for several others just like it.

:chuckle:

For the same rule of thumb I based my assertions about "all" not always meaning "all" on, must also be applied to determining what a phrase like "the witness of the Holy Spirit leads us..." means, as well as to how, and when, etc.

And it must also be applied to determining the validity of these other "one size fits all" assertions of yours: that (1) "There is no proof in the scripture...that every verse can be contradicted by man," and also, your: (2) "as it should be for we live by faith, not proof."

Heck, Genesis 3's "Yea, hath God said" is ALL the "proof" one could ever need as "proof in the Scripture...that every verse can be contradicted by man."

As for your other "one size fits all there" - nope to that one also.

Fact of the matter is that faith IS based on a proof of sorts.

The basis of my faith in this?

Passages like the following - proof - that faith is based on a proof of sorts...

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. 17:5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

Okay, so some did not buy what Paul was "alleging" and even became more than a bit hostile towards him - obviously, given what THEY considered "proof."

In contrast...

17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

So off he goes to Berea, where he finds some who believe what he opens and alleges.

The basis of their faith?

The following proof...

17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Where you ended up off (your various "one size fits all"s) was in your obviously having failed to be a bit more rigorous in your approach before allowing yourself your conclusions.

Which basically involves REPEATEDLY asking oneself questions like "okay, now where are the holes in this that I am about to conclude on, and or assert - what have I not considered that I would do well to? What else? And what else?"

And again, the next time. And the next time after that. And the next time after that one...

Of course, those kinds of questions and their results much more refined than those of someone else, will repeatedly end you up in hot water with the incompetents, the lazy, and the insecure, and those who resort to all sorts of fool conclusions about another, and or to all sorts of name calling, on forums - but such and their coddlers are not Who we will EACH have to answer to one day.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Jeremiah 32:10 And I subscribed the evidence, and sealed it, and took witnesses, and weighed him the money in the balances.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The good I want to do I cannot. The evil I would not do, I do...

Hebrews 12:4 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.​

 

[ttruscott]

God doesn't want us to be soulless puppets, therefore He has determined that we must choose Him before we are accepted.

Agreed...

 

[ttruscott]

First we established our own fate as either elect or non-elect by our free will then the elect established their moral nature as either holy or sinful. Then when the sinful elect, who had lost their free will to the enslaving addiction of evil, were to live with the eternally evil non-elect, GOD predestined their LIVES to conform to their sinfulness to open the eyes of the sinful elect to their great and true guilt so they could be brought to redemption and rebirth like Adam and Eve, their free will restored.

 

[oatmeal]

Who has opposed Gods will?

I have and so has everyone else who has sinned.

Everyone who has disobeyed God.

That is who has opposed Gods will.

Truth is truth.

Gods word is truth. John 17:17.

Truth does not change.

Anyone who thinks they can have "their own truth" is wrong unless that truth is what God declares is true

 

[Faither]

Now that I have your attention. Too many people believe that man has free will (which is an illusion) and that man's will is stronger than God's will. They won't state it that way. Rather, the statement goes along this line, "God is a gentleman and will never force any person to do anything against their will."
Of course, this is just one of the many fallacies spouted out that contradict Scripture. If that statement is true, then answer Paul's question in Rom 9:19, "For who hath resisted his will?"
The answer is nobody can resist (oppose, withstand) God's will.
Rom 9:16-21
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardenth ( Wait a sec, does that mean God doesn't give mercy to all people?)
Thou will say to me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest(talks back, questions) against God. Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why has thou made me thus( like this)?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
I can promise that this chapter of Romans is never read or taught on in the average church building. Preachers hate the ninth chapter of Romans. If you have never read Rom, chap 9, you should. Very important info is contained in the chapter.
The main tenet of the Evangelical world, the core belief, the Holy Grail is that man's will is the strongest force in the universe and that no member of the Trinity can make a person do something against that person's will. This is so very evident by the following statements proclaimed ad nausum by the Pharisees:
" Give God permission to work through you."
"Allow the Holy Spirit to lead you."
" Let God have his way."
"Let God be your pilot."
" Give Jesus the steering wheel."
"Surrender to Jesus."
"Let God be God."
"God want's to..."
" God desires that..."
All of these ignorant statenents and similar promote the lie that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are all powerless to do anything to a person without permission. Excuse me, can anybody show me even one verse where this concept is expressed. One verse thst shows that a person prevented God from doing what God had purposed?
Evangelicals, while they may not be aware of it, actually believe in humanism. What arrogance! To think that a weak, sinful created creature is stronger than the all-powerful, mighty, terrible God!
The biblical reality is that God is sovereign over everything in the universe He created, including salvation. The strongest force in the universe is God's intrepid will.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in heaven. He hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Psalm 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

My favorite, Dan 4:35 And all of the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing.: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay(hinder, stop, change, prevent) his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Question what God does, as if God is accountable to man)

Isa 46:9-10. Remember the former things of old: for I am God and there is none else; I am God and there is none like me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying My counsel (purpose) shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure(what God decides to do)

Ep 1:11...according to the purpose of him(God) who worketh all things after the counsel (purpose) of his own will.

Now, that is pretty easy to see that God is sovereign and that everything he purposes does come to pass. And nobody or anything can prevent God's will from happening. I nust point out that in none of theses verses is there any hint or mention of how God needs man's " permission" to act as God has decided to act.
As I write these things, i know for a fact that there will be people who will not see the truth presented in the verses. They will not believe or they will reject the truth. People who claim to believe God's word do not believe God's word. They only believe what they think God's word "should" say in their Evangelical view. And why is this the reality? I'm about to show you. Unfortunately for those goats who don't believe, I am again going to use more of God's word.

Deut 29:2-4
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them,
" Ye have seen (with your physical eyes) all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharsoh, all of the Egyptians and unto all of his land. The great temptations(tests) which you saw with your own eyes, you saw the signs and great miracles. YET THE LORD HATH NOT GIVEN YOU AN HEART TO PERCIEVE, AND EYES (spiritual eyes) TO SEE AND EARS (spuritual ears) TO HEAR UNTO THIS DAY.

God has to give a person spiritual eyes and ears in order for that person to comprehend and believe truth. No person has the abilty to "chose" to believe biblical truth. No person, in their natural state, can discern, of his own will, intellect, wisdom, etc. spiritual truth. The truth is there in plain sight, if God enables you to see it. If God doesn't give you the spiritual eyes to see the truth, you can live a thoudand years, have the entire bible memorized, have 30 degrees, study for a thousand years and you will never see the truth.

Jn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: niether can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us ( every time the words, "us" or "we" are used in the N.T., they refer to believers only) by his Spirit...


Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction.

Psalm 78:32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wonderous works.

Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

Psalm 119:73 Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

Pro 20:11 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made both of them.
(Obviously this is not refering to the physically only)

Isa 6:10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but percieve not.

Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes. the prophets, your rulers, the seers hath he covered ( concealed the truth)

Jer 4:10 Then said I. Ah Lord God! Surely thou hast greatly deceived this people...

Jer 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land...but of hearing the words of the Lord.

Mat 13:10-11
...Why speaketh thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mat 13:16-17 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.


Mk 4:11-12 And he said unto them, "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without(goats) all these things are done in parables.
That seeing they may see, and not percieve; and hearing they may hear, but not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven.

Now, consider this. The Evangelicals claim that God and Jesus "want" all people to "get saved" ( There is no concept of people "getting saved" in Scripture) Yet, through his own words, Jesus purposely kept the truth hidden to some! He blatantly states that all people are not to be saved. What is faith? Belief in the truth. In order to be saved, one has to beleve the truth. Yet, Jesus made sure that some people would be kept from the truth. Hmmm. Jesus, by hiding the truth, purposely makes sure that there are those who will not have any chance, ever, of having their sins forgiven. This is the real Jesus of the bible, the Son of God, not the made up sissy Jesus of the Evangelicals.

Mat 11:25-26
At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank thee O Fsther, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise, prudent and hast revealed them unto babes( someone new to the faith)
Even so, Father: for it seemed good in thy sigbt.

Let me get this straight, Jesus gavr thanks that God hid truth? And, to God, it was a good thing to hide truth from peopke? That doesn't sound right, does it? No, that doesn't sound right to Evangelicals and the made-up God and Jesus taught by the Pharisees.

Jn 10: 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not ...

Jn 10: 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice...

Jn 10:26-27

Many teach that one "becomes" a sheep after they "accept Christ" ( A phrase not found in Scripture) One is either born a sheep or a goat. In order to hear Jesus, one must already be a sheep.

Jn 12:37-40

Jn 8:43-44 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father, the devil...

Notice, Jesus said, because you CANNOT hear my word. Cannot, unable to hear, Jesus did not say, bevause you will not, or, because you rejected me.
Wow, Jesus wasn't very nice when he told the Pharisses they were the children of the devil. I guess he really showed them, shared with them, God's love, right? Aren't we supposed to share God's love with all people?

Jn 18:37...Everyone that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Acts 16:14
The Lord opened her heart.

Acts 22:9

Rom 11:7-8

2Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded.

2Cor 4: 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.

This does not say "because they rejected Jesus, that the gospel would now be hid. It is hid from those from the start, the lost will never have a chance to "get saved"

I could show more verses, but there is no need. I have given plenty of evidence of what I titled this post. If God "wants" everybody to get saved, if He prusues people, if He is wooing people, inviting people to "get saved" why wouldn't he give all people the eyes and ears to see, comprehend and believe the truth. No, he purposely gives some the truth and purposely hides the truth from others. It must be his purpose. And please dont try to telk me that big lie that, "God has seen who will believe and gets the truth to those.








Sent from my LG-M327 using Tapatalk

accepting , that the English words " believe, believer, and believing " are mistranslations that occurred as the result of the English not having a verb form of the noun "Faith" like the Greek does, could be the first step in todays church worlds recovery....

 

[Cross Reference]

Don't be so NAIVE. No doubt, there are many people who go around saying they're 'Born Again' but they're not.

How do you know you are?

 

[Cross Reference]

"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered [Redeemed} from the law, that being dead wherein we were held [captive]; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." Romans 7:4-6 (KJV)

How can our release from the "letter" happen except by an outside Personality Who paid the price for our release. OMT: This has nothing to do with being born again but done by God with a Hope that many would pursue to know Him for which the new birth is but the necessary beginning of the journey unto sonship in Him per john 17:3 . . . . This relates to Romans 8:20 KJV as being how Adam was to become as Jesus was while on Earth that by the new birth we are given to become.