ECT God decides who does or doesn't believe.

[intojoy]

Hello intojoy,
Thank you for your comment. When I show the verses that I do, my main goal is that people would actually pay attention to the fact that the verses, which are in scripture ( which they say they believe in) are verses they are not aware of, and should create a desire to look further into the subject. And as a result, should make them aware that their preacher is lying to them about what scripture actually teaches. At that point, they should show the verses to their preacher and let that preacher deal with it.
It is amazing that while people who do not have a certain profession, such as brain surgeon, astronaut, pro athlete, astro physicist, etc., will not claim to have expertise in those areas or work in those fields. But will all consider themselves to be BIBLE EXPERTS! People who do not study, do not know how to study or have even attempted to study. Most of these pew warmrrs only source of knowledge is what their preacher tells them, yet when they read what I post, they immediately rule me in error and procede to correct me, mock me, deny the verses or assume that I am trying to make something up. None of that bothers me. I'm not trying to prove a point or trying to convince anybody to believe me. I ask for people to believe the bible.
The saddest, lamest part is that none of them will even bother to address the verses I show. Most, I am positive, do not even bother to read the verses first, rather start to form their response as soon as they read the title.
They don't understand that they are not disagreeing with me, they are denying God's word. I have stated very clearly in my posts that if you want to discuss with me my position,( which only reflects the bible's teaching) then you need to address the verses I show. Not one person has done that, and I know why! Because I tell the truth and the verses don't lie. Because they are living proof that God has blinded some to the truth, and they prove it.

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You’re right about not knowing how to study the word. It’s sad that pastors are so threatened by anyone that dares to disagree. I’m open to criticism. I believe God enabled me to hear His call and enabled me to respond. That way I did exercise my will but only because he chose to put within my heart the ability to hear and believe. And that before Adam was created I was chosen as a recipient of His inescapable plan to save me. I, have done nothing because the very choice I made to believe was not possible had it not been for His love, and mercy for me.


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[intojoy]

The non elect are not divinely enabled and are without hope. However, we cannot judge them as irretrievably lost since only God knows whom He has chosen and thus we persist in sharing the truth and encouraging all to come to faith.


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[Grosnick Marowbe]

The non elect are not divinely enabled and are without hope. However, we cannot judge them as irretrievably lost since only God knows whom He has chosen and thus we persist in sharing the truth and encouraging all to come to faith.


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Logically speaking, what would motivate a 'TRUE BELIEVER' to preach the Gospel to everyone, if Calvinism were true? I mean, if God has already 'CHOSEN' who He will save and who He will damn, then no matter what, it will work out that way, right? In other words, God does not need us to preach the Gospel, those who were 'CHOSEN' will be saved no matter what, right?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinism is an 'affront' to 'The Gospel of the Grace of God' as preached by the Apostle Paul.

 

[intojoy]

Logically speaking, what would motivate a 'TRUE BELIEVER' to preach the Gospel to everyone, if Calvinism were true? I mean, if God has already 'CHOSEN' who He will save and who He will damn, then no matter what, it will work out that way, right? In other words, God does not need us to preach the Gospel, those who were 'CHOSEN' will be saved no matter what, right?

Logically it requires that everyone is born dead to God and already condemned to hell. And if God includes the works of the believers in the means by which the elect are moved to faith then it requires the believers to preach the gospel, pray for, the lost to the very end because we cannot determine who is or isn’t elect.


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[preacherman57]

The non elect are not divinely enabled and are without hope. However, we cannot judge them as irretrievably lost since only God knows whom He has chosen and thus we persist in sharing the truth and encouraging all to come to faith.


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How cool,
Nice to meet you my brother in Christ and fellow sheep. When I was very young, about 6 or 7 years old, I and my siblings were put into a Catholic home. Of course, we were subject to the Catholic indoctrination. What I remember the most was that at some point, God put two undeniable facts into my heart (mind):
1. That God was real.
2. That the bible was His true word.
From then on, these two facts were as if they were stamped into my D.N.A. I did not believe these two facts due to some priest or nun "teaching" me, rather" it was what God purpoesd for me to know at that point in my life, Isa 55:11 ( yet another verse the unlearned love to quote, but have not a clue as to how and when it applies)
After leaving the home, I was forced to continue in the Catholic system for a number of years. After escaping their clutches, I tried different " protestant" denominations over the years. I desperately wanted to be taught bible truth, but would only pick up a snippet here and there. My spirit was starving for truth, but there was no bread of life from heaven to feed me. So, I eventually quit going to any church building, but always hungry for truth. I did not know how to study at that point, but I did buy some books and pick up some knowledge, but had no clue about predestination. I wonder if you have experienced some of the same?
At age 40, God quickened my spirit and open my eyes to the truth about election. I had no problem believing any of it. Every new truth was like a thunderbolt running down my spine. I had always wanted to study and teach scripture, and that avenue opened up.The first thing I focused on was studying God's sovereignty. Not only is God's sovereignty the single most important doctrine in Scripture, understanding God's sovereignty is the only way to understand election.
After the Holy Spirit guided me into studying that it is God who opens or blinds eyes to His truth, I realized that it is the work of God in belief or rejection of truth and I am only required to speak the truth. So, I am very aware that it doesn't matter what verses I can show or what I can explain that has anything to do with God opening the eyes.
I see people in three ways:
1. They are a sheep and know they are elected.
2. They are a goat and will never believe in predestination.
3. They are a lost sheep who hasn't been quickened yet.
While I have and always will teach anybody who has a sincere desire to learn, as soon as I encounter those who resist, use excuses, put up walls or flat out deny the truth, I walk away. Unlike the Evangelical false teaching that belevers should do everything in their power, befriend, have over for cookouts, cut the grass, etc. of pagans in order to "win" them for Christ, scripture clearly teaches that if a person is not hearing the truth, we are to avoid them( this instruction also includes avoiding believers who are not living the truth) Mat 15:14, Rom 16:17-18, 1Cor 5:11, 1Cor 16:22, Gal 5:12, 2Th 3:6,14, 1Tim 6:5, 2Tim 3:6, Tit 3:5,10, 2Jn :10-11.
Anyways, I am very pleased that our paths have crossed.
In Truth
Bob



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[ttruscott]

Try as hard as I could, I could not find the word "bask" anywhere in my bible. Nor do I find one instance of somebody "basking" in God's love.

Some synonyms for "bask":
to delight in, take pleasure in, rejoice in and glory in...

Delight in: Psalm 37:4 Take delight in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

Take pleasure in: Psalms 147:11 The LORD takes pleasure in those who fear Him, In those who hope in His mercy.

Psalms 149:4 For the LORD takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the humble with salvation.

Rejoice in: Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.

Glory in: Revelation 4:11 “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

Therefore I think that my choice of words was very apropos to pointing out the fulness of these words, not just one corner...

 

[ttruscott]

The anti-Calvinist reader—like countless others—define the term, free will, as the ability to choose from among various alternatives without any prior prejudices, inclinations, or dispositions. In other words, they imply that man must possess neutrality in order to be truly free.

A true free will is free from coercion, not mere influences. A coercion cannot be denied and forces the choice to go in only one direction or choose only one option of all those available.

An influence can be denied and is often mulled over and considered before it is denied or accepted. This is different from a coercion. Various alternatives such as any prior prejudices, inclinations, or dispositions are mere personal influences, the result of experience in life and do not FORCE anyone's decisions as out of their control which they cannot deny.

Therefore your conclusion is deemed to be false because it is based upon a faulty premise, that influences have a coercive value on the will.

 

[intojoy]

God decides who does or doesn't believe.

How cool,
Nice to meet you my brother in Christ and fellow sheep. When I was very young, about 6 or 7 years old, I and my siblings were put into a Catholic home. Of course, we were subject to the Catholic indoctrination. What I remember the most was that at some point, God put two undeniable facts into my heart (mind):
1. That God was real.
2. That the bible was His true word.
From then on, these two facts were as if they were stamped into my D.N.A. I did not believe these two facts due to some priest or nun "teaching" me, rather" it was what God purpoesd for me to know at that point in my life, Isa 55:11 ( yet another verse the unlearned love to quote, but have not a clue as to how and when it applies)
After leaving the home, I was forced to continue in the Catholic system for a number of years. After escaping their clutches, I tried different " protestant" denominations over the years. I desperately wanted to be taught bible truth, but would only pick up a snippet here and there. My spirit was starving for truth, but there was no bread of life from heaven to feed me. So, I eventually quit going to any church building, but always hungry for truth. I did not know how to study at that point, but I did buy some books and pick up some knowledge, but had no clue about predestination. I wonder if you have experienced some of the same?
At age 40, God quickened my spirit and open my eyes to the truth about election. I had no problem believing any of it. Every new truth was like a thunderbolt running down my spine. I had always wanted to study and teach scripture, and that avenue opened up.The first thing I focused on was studying God's sovereignty. Not only is God's sovereignty the single most important doctrine in Scripture, understanding God's sovereignty is the only way to understand election.
After the Holy Spirit guided me into studying that it is God who opens or blinds eyes to His truth, I realized that it is the work of God in belief or rejection of truth and I am only required to speak the truth. So, I am very aware that it doesn't matter what verses I can show or what I can explain that has anything to do with God opening the eyes.
I see people in three ways:
1. They are a sheep and know they are elected.
2. They are a goat and will never believe in predestination.
3. They are a lost sheep who hasn't been quickened yet.
While I have and always will teach anybody who has a sincere desire to learn, as soon as I encounter those who resist, use excuses, put up walls or flat out deny the truth, I walk away. Unlike the Evangelical false teaching that belevers should do everything in their power, befriend, have over for cookouts, cut the grass, etc. of pagans in order to "win" them for Christ, scripture clearly teaches that if a person is not hearing the truth, we are to avoid them( this instruction also includes avoiding believers who are not living the truth) Mat 15:14, Rom 16:17-18, 1Cor 5:11, 1Cor 16:22, Gal 5:12, 2Th 3:6,14, 1Tim 6:5, 2Tim 3:6, Tit 3:5,10, 2Jn :10-11.
Anyways, I am very pleased that our paths have crossed.
In Truth
Bob



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I too was a believer in God and the Bible from about 5 years old. Several years ago I thought I must have been saved forever and that caused me to look into God’s will and man’s will.

I learned that God in His love chose to reach into the mass of humanity and save some while passing over others. I also learned that God can and sometimes does self imposed limits upon His sovereignty such as His ability to destroy the earth with a flood but He cannot do that because He said He will never do so again. That is how I understand my will having been enabled to accept the gospel because He has allowed it by enabling my will that I had no power to exercise on my own.

I also do not waste anytime on those that reject sound doctrine. When a JW or a Mormon comes by I quickly determine if I have the time necessary to let him know why he will go to hell if he died that day. If I don’t have time I will shut the door without a word. We are commanded to have no fellowship with them, we are not required to be kind to them. Some of my friends are and I love teasing them about my personal mistreatment’s of the cultist goofs.

I am a believer in the Messiahship of Jesus as God the Son.



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[Ask Mr. Religion]

A true free will is free from coercion, not mere influences. A coercion cannot be denied and forces the choice to go in only one direction or choose only one option of all those available.

You are not making much sense here.

You cannot do other than what you did, else you would have did that. Relying upon hindsight to make the argument, well I could have done otherwise, cannot overcome the plain fact of what was done was your choice when you did it. You did what you did because at the moment you did it, that was what your inclinations were.

No one is a random being, arbitrary in all that they do. Nothing in what I have written above implies some violence is being done to the will, as in holding a gun to someone's head under the threat of death. Even in that extreme case, the choice made is still what one is inclined to do, albeit coerced/forced, some are inclined to live others to die. Clearly the claim to a freely made choice in this instance is not applicable. But who has argued this? :idunno:

Persons simply do not flip a coin to determine the decision which is what claims to neutrality of the will actually imply. The will is the mind choosing. The choosing is the product of environment, experiences, upbringing, motives, etc. No one is some neutral agent in all matters of choice unless they have some cognitive impairments. The will is not some Holy of Holies that is untouchable.

AMR

 

[intojoy]

Angels like Adam were created in a state of unconfirmed creaturely holiness with the ability to make a choice contrary to their nature. Once the good angels forsook Lucifer by following God they were confirmed in holiness and are incapable of sinning. The angels who sinned are confirmed in unholiness and condemned and there is no plan of salvation for them.
Adam died spiritually the moment he ate the forbidden fruit. He did not seek God for salvation, God took the first step toward him and promised that a Seed Son from womankind would provide the way back to what Adam and Eve had lost. When Adam and Eve believed God they were born again but unlike the angels who were confirmed in holiness they had not been and awaited the work on the cross in hades - paradise. We wait for our glorification to take place in Messiah.
Scripture is clear that all are under sin even the unborn children. There is no scripture that teaches otherwise. There is no scripture that teaches “an age of accountability.” Those that teach infant salvation do so from the human perspective based upon human emotions. As harsh as may seem, the word of God is where my allegiance is and not with those who’ve lost children and their feelings. However, I would not argue it out with those for the sake of the principle of loving the weaker brother.


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[glorydaz]

Angels like Adam were created in a state of unconfirmed creaturely holiness with the ability to make a choice contrary to their nature. Once the good angels forsook Lucifer by following God they were confirmed in holiness and are incapable of sinning. The angels who sinned are confirmed in unholiness and condemned and there is no plan of salvation for them.
Adam died spiritually the moment he ate the forbidden fruit. He did not seek God for salvation, God took the first step toward him and promised that a Seed Son from womankind would provide the way back to what Adam and Eve had lost. When Adam and Eve believed God they were born again but unlike the angels who were confirmed in holiness they had not been and awaited the work on the cross in hades - paradise. We wait for our glorification to take place in Messiah.
Scripture is clear that all are under sin even the unborn children. There is no scripture that teaches otherwise. There is no scripture that teaches “an age of accountability.” Those that teach infant salvation do so from the human perspective based upon human emotions. As harsh as may seem, the word of God is where my allegiance is and not with those who’ve lost children and their feelings. However, I would not argue it out with those for the sake of the principle of loving the weaker brother.

Ah, so you like to make stuff up as you go along.

"Unconfirmed creaturely holiness" but no "innocent blood".

 

[intojoy]

Ah, so you like to make stuff up as you go along.

"Unconfirmed creaturely holiness" but no "innocent blood".

Who’s innocent?


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[Grosnick Marowbe]

Logically it requires that everyone is born dead to God and already condemned to hell. And if God includes the works of the believers in the means by which the elect are moved to faith then it requires the believers to preach the gospel, pray for, the lost to the very end because we cannot determine who is or isn’t elect.


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Explain what you just said above? I didn't quite understand what you were trying to get at?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I would ask 'Calvinists,' how they KNOW they are among the 'Elect?' Is it a gut feeling, a certain belief, are you privy to some spiritual knowledge not known by others? What makes you 'BELIEVE' with certainty that you are of the 'Elect?' Did you hear the 'Gospel of the Grace of God' as preached by the Apostle Paul and place your faith in Christ? Do you point to that as your 'Proof of Election?' What assures you that, you are one of the Elect?

 

[intojoy]

Explain what you just said above? I didn't quite understand what you were trying to get at?

Even if you’re not a Calvinist you believe God uses your prayers and evangelism to save people or you wouldn’t do it. Same thinking for the moderate Calvinist. I pray for your salvation, God answers, you believe unto salvation. That is why we pray for the lost, Calvin or no Calvin.


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[Grosnick Marowbe]

Even if you’re not a Calvinist you believe God uses your prayers and evangelism to save people or you wouldn’t do it. Same thinking for the moderate Calvinist. I pray for your salvation, God answers, you believe unto salvation. That is why we pray for the lost, Calvin or no Calvin.


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Well, you and I will have to 'agree to disagree.' You see, I believe it's the Holy Spirit who draws people to Christ and the Gospel. We cannot pray anyone else into the Kingdom of God. We can try to spread the 'Gospel of the Grace of God' (as preached by the Apostle Paul) however, it's the Holy Spirit's work to draw them. Everyone who hears the 'Gospel' has a 'free-will' to choose to believe or reject the Gospel. Paul's Gospel (Gospel of the Grace of God) is offered to everyone. (A world of lost sinners)

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinism is one of many 'false deceptions.'

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Intojoy, are YOU one of the Elect and if so, how do you KNOW?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

One of the great Scripture verses, Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" is a good example of 'free will.' God would NOT force them. It was up to them.