The Church Age was a 'mystery' in the valley of the mountain peaks of revealed prophecy (between first and second coming of Christ). This does not mean that Paul's teaching for the edification of the Church does not apply to the Church Age (e.g. I Cor. 12-14 are principles about the use and misuse of spiritual gifts...it does not argue against their validity for the Church Age).
Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
godrulz,
It was the ministry to preach the "gospel of grace" that was a mystery.
The gift signs were clearly associated with Israel,and as long as the Kingdom continued to be offered to Israel these sign gifts remained in force.But after Acts 28 these sign gifts are never again mentioned by Paul in his epistles.
So long as the gospel was being proclaimed especially to the covenant people, miracles were abundant. It was primarily to the covenant people that Christ came. "Salvation is of the Jews," the Lord declared. "I am not sent, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." "Christ was a minister of the circumcision, for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers" (Romans 15:8). That ministry, therefore, had special reference to the Scriptures which testified of Him and which it was His mission to fulfill.
As I said before,the ministry that was associated with the sign gifts was a prophesised ministry,while the present ministry was never prophesised.And we can see clealy that the miracles of healing began to fade away after the gospel ceased going to the nation of Israel.
Paul could not heal Epaphroditus when he lay "sick nigh unto death" by his side at Rome. At a still later date, he had to leave Trophimus lying sick at Miletum (Philippians 2:27; 2 Timothy 4:20). A miracle at the court of Nero might have shaken the world. Never was an evidential miracle more needed, if beliefs and theories about miracles be true. But no miracle occurred.
At the present time there is only "one baptism",and that is clearly the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit when the believer is identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus and placed in the Church,which is His Body.And that completely eliminates the baptism with the Spirit whereby believers during the Acts period received these sign gifts.
In His grace,--Jerry
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
all power and authority is Christs (we are His body)
all power and authority is Christs (we are His body)
Jerry,
In Pauls address to the Corinthians(1 Cor. 12-14).....he shares what God has given the church as far as spiritual ministrations - also confirming at the same time that by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, - Jews, greeks, slaves, free, etc. - all have been made to drink into one Spirit. He lists the charismas of the spirit - not all are specifically 'sign-gifts' but some may certainly be 'signs' to some, especially unbelievers. Paul speaks of the management, ordering of these charismas as they are to operate in the church. He never indicates that the charismas are going to cease - The Spirit still wills, works and operates within the body of Christ.....for we are His living body. The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all. If you look over the gifts of the Spirit listed by Paul that God has given to the church....most operate for the edification of the church -faith, words of wisdom, knowledge; gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy, tongues, interpretations,apostles, prophets, teachers, helps, administrations, etc. These belong to us for the edification of the Body in Love.....as we all as members with different gifts unite as one in the Unity of God - for there is only one Spirit - but many ministrations.
We open and allow in our faith and understanding spiritually and intellectually for the fullness and liberty of the Holy Spirits gifts to flow as He wills among His people. The body still needs perfecting, edification, revelation, teaching, enrichment, empowering - these are provided for by unctions of the Holy Spirit.
Now.....why would anyone who calls himself a christ-ian believe otherwise? and say we no longer need the Spirit? I will add that the Spirits power and presence is without measure in Christ...and that faith does avail and is essential in spiritual matters in ones relationship to God. It is only right, seeming and logical that the body of Christ have all the workings of the Spirit in her care and ministry.
paul
all power and authority is Christs (we are His body)
Jerry,
In Pauls address to the Corinthians(1 Cor. 12-14).....he shares what God has given the church as far as spiritual ministrations - also confirming at the same time that by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, - Jews, greeks, slaves, free, etc. - all have been made to drink into one Spirit. He lists the charismas of the spirit - not all are specifically 'sign-gifts' but some may certainly be 'signs' to some, especially unbelievers. Paul speaks of the management, ordering of these charismas as they are to operate in the church. He never indicates that the charismas are going to cease - The Spirit still wills, works and operates within the body of Christ.....for we are His living body. The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all. If you look over the gifts of the Spirit listed by Paul that God has given to the church....most operate for the edification of the church -faith, words of wisdom, knowledge; gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy, tongues, interpretations,apostles, prophets, teachers, helps, administrations, etc. These belong to us for the edification of the Body in Love.....as we all as members with different gifts unite as one in the Unity of God - for there is only one Spirit - but many ministrations.
We open and allow in our faith and understanding spiritually and intellectually for the fullness and liberty of the Holy Spirits gifts to flow as He wills among His people. The body still needs perfecting, edification, revelation, teaching, enrichment, empowering - these are provided for by unctions of the Holy Spirit.
Now.....why would anyone who calls himself a christ-ian believe otherwise? and say we no longer need the Spirit? I will add that the Spirits power and presence is without measure in Christ...and that faith does avail and is essential in spiritual matters in ones relationship to God. It is only right, seeming and logical that the body of Christ have all the workings of the Spirit in her care and ministry.
paul
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul,
Why would anyone who calls himself a christ-ian believe that there is more than one baptism at the present time when Paul says that there is only one?
The sign gifts were clearly in reference to a "baptism",and that baptism is not the "one baptism" of which Paul speaks.For example,there were some men who had already been given life by the Spirit and were no doubt indwelled by the Holy Spirit,but they had not yet received the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" (see Acts19:1-6).
It was not until Paul had laid his hands on them that they received the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
So there is a difference between the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit when the believer is identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ and placed into the Body of Christ and the baptism with the Holy Spirit when the believer receives sign gifts.
Why do you continue to insist that at the present time there is more than one "baptism" that applies to the Body of Christ despite the words of Paul that at this time there is only "one baptism"?
In His grace,--Jerry
Why would anyone who calls himself a christ-ian believe that there is more than one baptism at the present time when Paul says that there is only one?
The sign gifts were clearly in reference to a "baptism",and that baptism is not the "one baptism" of which Paul speaks.For example,there were some men who had already been given life by the Spirit and were no doubt indwelled by the Holy Spirit,but they had not yet received the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" (see Acts19:1-6).
It was not until Paul had laid his hands on them that they received the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
So there is a difference between the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit when the believer is identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ and placed into the Body of Christ and the baptism with the Holy Spirit when the believer receives sign gifts.
Why do you continue to insist that at the present time there is more than one "baptism" that applies to the Body of Christ despite the words of Paul that at this time there is only "one baptism"?
In His grace,--Jerry
1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
Godrulz – You said
And what do I do? I show you God’s word that consistently demonstrates that water baptism was required for salvation in the gospels which are circumcision writings which had a conditional salvation of works plus faith, see the following.
I am not resting my understanding on manmade ideas like godrulz is, as anyone can clearly see, my sourcing is God’s word.
If you have nothing more than what you have said, then thanks for loudly affirming my understanding of the texts involved by resorting to so much baloney for your counter points, God’s word remains true despite your efforts and so called arguments which are nothing much more than unfounded unbiblical claims.
So I repeat my caution to you for actively being found taking away from the word of God in order to protect your presuppositions. I said
so by your voiding of scripture what it literally says, and avoiding my demonstration of biblical repetitive consistency, for you, some sort of grammer structure supposedly overturns what the text actually says. That is simply foolishness, there is no grammatical rule to disqualify the literal meaning conveyed. The context says that water baptism was included in the literal instruction for the remission of sins, and it does so as demonstrated numerously and consistently.
- You can’t make God’s teaching go away by pretending some fictional “grammatical exclusion”,
- or saying that what God plainly says is does not conform to proper exegesis,
- nor is this over-dispensationalizing anything,
None of your supposed reasoning holds much sense let alone interpretational integrity. And you used more truth claims (and extremely bogus ones at that) in place of your support reasoning!
And what do I do? I show you God’s word that consistently demonstrates that water baptism was required for salvation in the gospels which are circumcision writings which had a conditional salvation of works plus faith, see the following.
But God through Paul teaches the exact opposite about works, that we are saved by grace through faith only, works are excluded, not included in this dispensation of mystery and grace.
In the dispensation of the mystery and Grace which God gave to Paul alone (the one single uncircumcision writer) to give to us, God teaches faith alone for salvation, faith and no works for salvation, the circumcision writers teach it must be faith and works together for salvation.
I am not resting my understanding on manmade ideas like godrulz is, as anyone can clearly see, my sourcing is God’s word.
If you have nothing more than what you have said, then thanks for loudly affirming my understanding of the texts involved by resorting to so much baloney for your counter points, God’s word remains true despite your efforts and so called arguments which are nothing much more than unfounded unbiblical claims.
So I repeat my caution to you for actively being found taking away from the word of God in order to protect your presuppositions. I said
You stand condemned for taking away from the word of God, and replacing the meaning with nothing. Baptize was and will again be a part of the gospel for the remission of sins. Don’t violate scripture.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
1Way,
This is not a thread to discuss these beliefs of yours.I have already started a thread that proves that the "baptism of repentance" was not in regard to salvation.This thread is on the "General Theology" forum and you are invited to continue this discussion in regard to water baptism on that thread.
In His grace,--Jerry
Freak
New member
Jerry, I have noticed you still haven't dealt with the Scriptural evidence for the continuation of miracles....
I stated in my last post: Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
Gift (xarisma).
Late N.T. word (in late papyri) from xarizomai, to give graciously. It is used here by Peter as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4,9,29-31; Romans 12:6). We are to employ whatever gift we possess to the glory of God. A gift which may include the gift of healing or the gift of miracles.
Moving on...
the Body of Christ has been given the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, etc.. for the edification of the Body...
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.
I stated in my last post: Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
The gift is referring to the gifts & ministry of the Holy Spirit
The ministry that was given to Timothy was the ministry of the preaching of the gospel, casting out of demons and healing the sick. For Paul tells the Body which would include Timothy to "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." Paul preached the gospel, healed the sick and cast out demons. Paul was simply following the example of Christ--who preached the gospel, cast out demons, and healed the sick. Paul in this passage encouraged Timothy to follow, essentially, the ministry of Jesus.
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Gift (xarisma).
Late N.T. word (in late papyri) from xarizomai, to give graciously. It is used here by Peter as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4,9,29-31; Romans 12:6). We are to employ whatever gift we possess to the glory of God. A gift which may include the gift of healing or the gift of miracles.
Moving on...
the Body of Christ has been given the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, etc.. for the edification of the Body...
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.
Freak
New member
Jerry, I'm still waiting for the Scriptural evidence that speaks of the gifts of healing & miracles being taken from the Body of Christ.
You may refer to this:
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child,, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
For the record let's deal with this. Jerry, when the perfect comes...then we shall see "face to face" seems to refer to a personal encounter; at least, that seems to be how God uses the phrase in His Word. If the position is taken that the "perfect" is the completed Bible, which you may do, how then do we encounter, personally, God in the manner as the phrase suggests: an encounter with a person? Seeing Christ face to face occurs when He returns. Wanted to clear this passage up for you.
You may refer to this:
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child,, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
For the record let's deal with this. Jerry, when the perfect comes...then we shall see "face to face" seems to refer to a personal encounter; at least, that seems to be how God uses the phrase in His Word. If the position is taken that the "perfect" is the completed Bible, which you may do, how then do we encounter, personally, God in the manner as the phrase suggests: an encounter with a person? Seeing Christ face to face occurs when He returns. Wanted to clear this passage up for you.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
The Spirit and the gifts are ours!
The Spirit and the gifts are ours!
)=========== Jerry,..............I see both baptisms which you refer to above as transpiring today. One can relegate baptisms, outpourrings, etc. to dispensations if they like. Yes, you may choose to believe that baptism with the Holy Spirit and gifts thru the laying on of hands was only effectual among the apostles - but the Holy Spirit hasnt changed...and spirit-anointings are still passed from one to another thru the laying on of hands and other means. We advocates of the miracle power of God and faith do not limit the Spirits power, functions or administrations. Of course there is one baptism just as there is one Spirit that we are all made to drink from. All thru faith are baptized into Christ in the Spirit - and.....in this immersion and partaking of the Spirit...the operations, anointings, charismas and dynamics of the Holy Ghost are potently alive! The faithful and spiritual can flow in these gifts.....as the Spirit wills.
I believe the church of Christ has been wholly immersed in the Holy Spirit! We HAVE THE FULLNESS. The NT proclaims this. We only need to walk in its reality and by faith live in this dimension of abundance. The Spirit and the gifts are ours! Martin Luther penned a mighty truth in the renewal of the Reformation with this hallmark hymn -
A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing;
Our helper He, amid the flood of mortal ills prevailing:
For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal.
Did we in our own strength confide, our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side, the Man of God’s own choosing:
Dost ask who that may be? Christ Jesus, it is He;
Lord Sabaoth, His Name, from age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.
And though this world, with devils filled, should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us:
The Prince of Darkness grim, we tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure, for lo, his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.
That word above all earthly powers, no thanks to them, abideth;
THE SPIRIT AND THE GIFTS ARE OURS through Him Who with us sideth:
Let goods and kindred go, this mortal life also;
The body they may kill: God’s truth abideth still,
His kingdom is forever.
paul
The Spirit and the gifts are ours!
)=========== Jerry,..............I see both baptisms which you refer to above as transpiring today. One can relegate baptisms, outpourrings, etc. to dispensations if they like. Yes, you may choose to believe that baptism with the Holy Spirit and gifts thru the laying on of hands was only effectual among the apostles - but the Holy Spirit hasnt changed...and spirit-anointings are still passed from one to another thru the laying on of hands and other means. We advocates of the miracle power of God and faith do not limit the Spirits power, functions or administrations. Of course there is one baptism just as there is one Spirit that we are all made to drink from. All thru faith are baptized into Christ in the Spirit - and.....in this immersion and partaking of the Spirit...the operations, anointings, charismas and dynamics of the Holy Ghost are potently alive! The faithful and spiritual can flow in these gifts.....as the Spirit wills.
I believe the church of Christ has been wholly immersed in the Holy Spirit! We HAVE THE FULLNESS. The NT proclaims this. We only need to walk in its reality and by faith live in this dimension of abundance. The Spirit and the gifts are ours! Martin Luther penned a mighty truth in the renewal of the Reformation with this hallmark hymn -
A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing;
Our helper He, amid the flood of mortal ills prevailing:
For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal.
Did we in our own strength confide, our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side, the Man of God’s own choosing:
Dost ask who that may be? Christ Jesus, it is He;
Lord Sabaoth, His Name, from age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.
And though this world, with devils filled, should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us:
The Prince of Darkness grim, we tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure, for lo, his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.
That word above all earthly powers, no thanks to them, abideth;
THE SPIRIT AND THE GIFTS ARE OURS through Him Who with us sideth:
Let goods and kindred go, this mortal life also;
The body they may kill: God’s truth abideth still,
His kingdom is forever.
paul
1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
Sorry all for going astray, I responded to Jerry’s thread on baptism, let’s take that issue over there, this is about miracles not baptism.
I did not notice the several requests to cease and get back on topic, it did get off topic however tangetially connected and interesting the discussion. (chuckles) Thanks for your patience as we all get back on track.
I did not notice the several requests to cease and get back on topic, it did get off topic however tangetially connected and interesting the discussion. (chuckles) Thanks for your patience as we all get back on track.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Freak,
I have already demonstrated that the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is no longer for the Church today.Today there is only "one baptism".
Yes,Paul "believed" what he was told by the Lord Jesus so we should believe Paul when he says that there is but "one baptism" for the church today.
Freak,my homework for you is to get out a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word "one".When you do that then tell me what Paul meant when he said that there is only "one baptism" for the church today.
That is ridiculous.The gift is clearly only in reference to his ministry.According to you we must believe that the laying of the hands by the "presbytery" is in regard to receiving the sign gifts.
You just cannot seem to see the "progressive" revelation of Scripture.If we are to follow the ministry of the Lord while He walked on the earth then we would have to place ourselves under the law.Here is what the Lord Jesus said:
"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do"(Mt.23:1-3).
It is clear that Timothy was not to follow the ministry of the Lord Jesus while He walked on this earth.
Yes,at one time when there was more than one baptism those in the church did have the sign gifts.But now that there is only "one baptism" those sign gifts are no longer for the church.
I have already proven that at this time there is only "one baptism".It is your burden of proof to demonstrate that Paul was wrong and at the present time there are more than "one baptism".
Yes,when the Lord comes then we will no longer have knowledge "in part".In these verses Paul was contrasting the "sign gifts" with "faith,hope and love".
He is not speaking specifically when the sign gifts will pass away,but instead he is saying that by the time that we will see the Lord face to face the sign gifts will be no longer needed.But that does not rule out the possibility that the sign gifts would cease before we face the Lord.
And as I have already demonstrated,the author of Hebrews tells the Jewish believers to "leave" the elementary things of Christ and pass on to maturity.And let us compare the words of Paul in regard to the sign gifts:
"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things"(1Cor.13:11).
The autor of Hebrews uses similiar language in the verses I have quoted.He calls these Jewish believers "babes" and tells them that "solid food belongs to them that are of "full age" (Heb.6:14).
He then says:
"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2;NASB).
All the things which the author of Hebrews mentions were part and parcel of the "gospel of the Kingdom",including the "laying on of hands" which was in egard to the "sign gifts".
These things are not for today,or else the author of Hebrews would not have told the Jewish believers to "leave" these elementary things.
In His grace,--Jerry
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
leaving the 'discussion of' , not the things themselves
leaving the 'discussion of' , not the things themselves
)========== Hi Jerry,..........you are qualifying things according to 'baptisms' which I believe is not really necessary here - kind of like dispensationalizing. We are baptized into the Christ via the Spirit, of course. There is one baptism in that sense...for there is only One Spirit, One God, one faith, one Lord, etc. God is One - this is a unitarian truth. Still.....some are water baptized as a sign of repentance, conversion, dedication, etc......and the Lord Jesus still baptizes us in a sense with the Holy Spirit and fire - this not only during conversion...but also for special anointments for service, ordination, unique impartations , etc. The Lord is ever at work among his people...and the Spirits ministrations are manifold.
)========== In regard to Heb 6:1,2.........the author is simply referring to leaving 'the discussion' of the elementary principles of Christ (I have NKJV) so he can continue expounding on meatier doctrine which was his original intent - for a little while before he rebukes his hearers for being babes in understanding - they should be teachers by now...but they need someone again to explain the first principles and oracles of God to them. Lets read the authors message 'in context'.
"Therefore leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection(maturity), not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God, of the doctrine of baptism(S), of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. AND THIS WE WILL DO IF GOD PERMITS....." - Heb 6:1-3 (NKJV)
One needs to read the chapter before 6 and a little after your quote to get the context. You will notice these things(which the author lists) ARE the elementary principles of Christ - they are the first principles - foundational doctrines! Lets read in context. The author rebukes them for still needing to know them....let alone what he is trying to teach them....BUT...he then insists on leaving THE DISCUSSION of these elementary principles(things)...to get back to his intentional subject at hand....which is Christs high priesthood role/function as a priest after the order of Melchizidek.
The author is not saying that these principles have passed away or have been left behind now at all....but he is leaving these topics of discussion for now in his address to his hearers.
As shared before.....sometimes the Holy Spirit (as in measures, anointings, impartations) can be passed from one to another thru the laying on of hands - the gifts of healing and miracles are sometimes also administered this way. Ordaining others often includes the laying on of hands - there are many impartations and ministrations thru this means.
You have not proved by scripture the cessation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit...but only shared your logic of their cessation relative to baptisms(dispensational) and liberal interpretations of a few verses - one being Heb. 6:1-3 which has been explained.
paul
leaving the 'discussion of' , not the things themselves
)========== Hi Jerry,..........you are qualifying things according to 'baptisms' which I believe is not really necessary here - kind of like dispensationalizing. We are baptized into the Christ via the Spirit, of course. There is one baptism in that sense...for there is only One Spirit, One God, one faith, one Lord, etc. God is One - this is a unitarian truth. Still.....some are water baptized as a sign of repentance, conversion, dedication, etc......and the Lord Jesus still baptizes us in a sense with the Holy Spirit and fire - this not only during conversion...but also for special anointments for service, ordination, unique impartations , etc. The Lord is ever at work among his people...and the Spirits ministrations are manifold.
)========== In regard to Heb 6:1,2.........the author is simply referring to leaving 'the discussion' of the elementary principles of Christ (I have NKJV) so he can continue expounding on meatier doctrine which was his original intent - for a little while before he rebukes his hearers for being babes in understanding - they should be teachers by now...but they need someone again to explain the first principles and oracles of God to them. Lets read the authors message 'in context'.
"Therefore leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection(maturity), not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God, of the doctrine of baptism(S), of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. AND THIS WE WILL DO IF GOD PERMITS....." - Heb 6:1-3 (NKJV)
One needs to read the chapter before 6 and a little after your quote to get the context. You will notice these things(which the author lists) ARE the elementary principles of Christ - they are the first principles - foundational doctrines! Lets read in context. The author rebukes them for still needing to know them....let alone what he is trying to teach them....BUT...he then insists on leaving THE DISCUSSION of these elementary principles(things)...to get back to his intentional subject at hand....which is Christs high priesthood role/function as a priest after the order of Melchizidek.
The author is not saying that these principles have passed away or have been left behind now at all....but he is leaving these topics of discussion for now in his address to his hearers.
As shared before.....sometimes the Holy Spirit (as in measures, anointings, impartations) can be passed from one to another thru the laying on of hands - the gifts of healing and miracles are sometimes also administered this way. Ordaining others often includes the laying on of hands - there are many impartations and ministrations thru this means.
You have not proved by scripture the cessation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit...but only shared your logic of their cessation relative to baptisms(dispensational) and liberal interpretations of a few verses - one being Heb. 6:1-3 which has been explained.
paul
Freak
New member
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.
We are baptized by the Holy Spirit into one Body when we place our faith in Christ.
There is but one baptism into one Body. Stop the smoking screens.
Homework completed.
There is but one baptism into the body. That is correct. I never claimed anything else, Jerry.
I've never believed that. You're attributing something to me that I have never stated.
Progressive revelation points to the fact that the Body of Christ has been bestowed gifts--gifts of healing, gifts of miracles, etc....
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.
Use some common & Biblical sense. Paul understood there was 2 covenants. Some teachings were reserved for the Old Covenant (like what Jesus told his disciples in that passage to do, you referred to) and others for the New Covenant and some for both. For example:
Under the Old Covenant we are told that God's people ought to love one another. The New Covenant teaches the same. The Old Covenant teaches tithes. The New Covenant doesn't. Under the Old and New Covenants we are told to heal the sick and to perform miracles. Think this through Biblically, in light of the 2 covenants....
The Old Covenant...
Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits. These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff--no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."
They went out and preached that people should repent. They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.
The New Covenant...
There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Jerry, there is no Biblical warrant to remove certain gifts from the Body just because you don't like them. You have blasphemed against the working of the Holy Spirit, the giver of these gifts to the Body.
Like having compassion on the mulitudes? Like bestowing mercy? Like bestowing grace? Like bestowing truth? Like bestowing deliverance to the captives? Like healing the broken-hearted? Like these things?
You completely ignored the words of the apostle Paul. Which doesn't surprise me because the Scripture, as written by Paul, defeats your unBiblical views on this subject.
Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.
Jesus loved people. Paul followed that example and loved people. Jesus healed the sick. Paul followed that example and healed the sick. Jesus cast out demons. Paul followed the example of Jesus and cast out demons. Now, Paul, in speaking to the church exhorted the Body to follow his example. Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him. ANSWER THE QUESTION!
Note: No Biblical foundation for this belief just simple nonsense from you. Figures.
I believe there is but one baptism into the Body by the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ....What's wrong with you? It reminds me when you asked me this earlier:
To which I answered:
Jerry, I've never spoken in tongues so why would "cloven tongues like as fire" sit upon me?
These kinds of remarks/questions by you leads me to wonder if...
a. you're truly reading my posts?
b. you're simply confused by your own beliefs.
c. you're desperately looking to prove your fallacies by stating misinformation about me.
d. you're truly an angry believer and despise the gifts of the Holy Spirit and you are willing to attribute things to me that are truly untrue.
Perhaps d.?
Note: No Biblical foundation for this subjective belief of yours.
God is calling you to maturity, Jerry. The Lord Jesus examplified this maturity through His ministry--of meeting people needs--preaching the gospel, healing the sick, teaching, delivering souls from the enemy.
The New Covenant, the superior covenant, teaches:
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
Paul was encouraging Timothy to Preach the Word. This includes the teachings of spiritual gifts-gifts that include the gift of miracles, the gifts of healing, etc...
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Reminds me much of you. You have chosen to remove some gifts from the Body (this btw is not putting up with sound doctrine) where is no Biblical warrant to do so.
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
All the duties of ministry. This includes the ministry of healing and miracles for God gives His body these gifts to minister to those needing help.
Unfinished homework:
Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Freak,
Paul says that at the present time there is but "one baptism".PERIOD.
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all"(Eph.4:4-6).
If we use your reasoning then we can also say that there is one Holy Spirit in regard to the baptism into the Body and there are other Holy Spirits.But we both know that that is ridiculous.There is but "one baptism" for now and there is but one Holy Spirit.
If quoting the words of Paul is a "smokescreen",then I plead guilty.Here Paul says that at the present time there is but "one baptism",but you say that this means that "there is one baptism" into one Body".
The words of Paul are in regard to the "unity of the Spirit".When we start to add other "baptisms" to the Church we began to disrupt this unity.
We can see the "progress" of revelation when we see that the things in regard to the "gospel of the kingdom" are no longer to be utilized in the present dispensation.The author of Hebrews makes this plain when he tells the Jewish believers to "leave" those things and go on to maturity:
"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2;NASB).
The words in regard to "instructions about washings" and "repentance from dead works" are in reference to the "baptism of repentance".That is one baptism that is not for the church today.The words in regard to the "laying on of hands" is in regard to the "baptism with the Spirit" which was the means of receiving the "sign gifts".This is another baptism which has no place for the church today.
At one time these gifts were given to the Body.But now there is but one baptism,and that baptism is not in regard to the "baptism with the Spirit".
I have already demonstrated that the author of Hebrews told the Jewish believers to leave the other baptisms behind.But you continue to insist that there is more than "one baptism" for the church today.
So now you want to accuse me of blasphemy against the working of the Holy Spirit.But have I not already told you that I am merely following the words of John when he says to "test" the spirits to determine whether or not they are of God?:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God"(1Jn.4:1).
And by the words of the Savior we can also know that in all instances where someone casts out demons or thinks they are casting out demons that it is not necessarily of God:
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out demons? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"(Mt.7:22,23).
I have only done what John tells us to do by "testing" these other spirits and I have concluded that they are not of God.
It is you who is forced to add to the words of Paul in regard to the "one baptism".
More later...
In His grace,--Jerry
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Leaving the elementary principles of the doctrines of Christ...
Leaving the elementary principles of the doctrines of Christ...
The author of Hebrews tells the Jewish believers to "leave" the elementary teachings in regard to Jesus Christ and to go on to maturity.
The Greek word translated "leave" means "to give up,keep no longer"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").
He says to cease (not laying again) from the things which pertain to the elementary things in regard to the Lord Jesus and go on to maturity.And then he says,"And this we will do,if God permit"(Heb.6:1-2).
In His grace,--Jerry
Leaving the elementary principles of the doctrines of Christ...
Paul,
The author of Hebrews tells the Jewish believers to "leave" the elementary teachings in regard to Jesus Christ and to go on to maturity.
The Greek word translated "leave" means "to give up,keep no longer"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").
He says to cease (not laying again) from the things which pertain to the elementary things in regard to the Lord Jesus and go on to maturity.And then he says,"And this we will do,if God permit"(Heb.6:1-2).
In His grace,--Jerry
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
1Way,
I have already answered your only post on that thead.I am waiting on your reply.???
In His grace,--Jerry
Freak
New member
Yes, there is but one baptism--the baptism of the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. Are you so dense that you don't see that I agree with you? Water baptism is simply symbolic and therefore not considered a baptism of any true significance.
I feel like I'm dealing with a 10 year old in talking with you.
We're speaking of spiritual gifts not baptisms.
What about the question of whether the Bible, itself, speaks of a discontinuance of spiritual gifts, as you believe Jerry? Generally speaking, most argue this point based on Paul's statement in 1 Cor. 13: 10 which states: "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." The argument rests on the reference to "perfect." Proponents of this argument state that this is a reference to the closing or completion of the New Testament canon. However, contextually, this is a very weak argument. Most evangelical commentaries today, stay true to the text and admit this is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ, not to the completion of the canon of Holy Scripture. Again, there are a number of reasons cessationists argue against the continuation of spiritual gifts but lack biblical support. Jerry, you are lacking in Biblical support. It seems you're simply relying on your theological bias rather than presenting strong biblical injunctions against the continuance of sign gifts. Sad and pathetic on your part.
There is but one baptism into the Body.
Yes, you're blaspheming the Holy Spirit of God for your outright denial of God's Word on this subject. Renounce your man-made doctrines and embrace the Scriptural teachings on this subject.
Anyone reading the New Covenant, in particular, should have no problem discovering not only numerous examples of miracles in the form of healing, prophecy, tongues, etc., but clear instruction on the functioning of spiritual gifts in the church (e.g., the book of Acts, Romans 12: 6-8; 1 Cor. 12:4-11, 28-30; 13; 14; and Eph. 4:7-12). Spiritual gifts were bestowed upon the church, the Body of Christ, both as a witness to the unbelieving world and for empowerment and Jerry you have failed to provide any Scriptural evidence that these gifts were taken from the Body.
I have tested your view in light of Scripture and have been shown by the objective standard--the Scriptures--that your view is not of God. For the Holy Trinity inspired Paul to write concering the reality of the gift of miracles, for example, in the Body. See Rom. 12:6-8; 1 Cor. 12:8-10; 13:1-3; 13:8; 14:6; 14:26.
And we know from the Lord that there are some like yourself, Jerry, that operate against the Lord by forbidding the ministry of the Lord Jesus:
Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.
I have proven through the internal witness of the Scriptures, that you have not been testing in light of the Scriptures but instead you have tested doctrine via your hunches and unbiblical bias.
So, moving on...
I'm still waiting for you to deal with these concerns of mine:
In the New Covenant...
There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Jerry, where is the Biblical warrant to remove certain gifts from the Scriptural record?
Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Freak,
I am surprised that you cannot discuss these matters as an adult.You prove that you must attempt to denigrate others in order to argue your points.
You just cannot seem to understand that the receiving of the sign gifts was accomplished through the "baptism with the Spirit".
You must have your two baptisms despite the fact that Paul says that at this time there is but one.
You ignore the verses that I provided from the book of Hebrews which demonstrate conclusively that the Jewish believers were told to discontinue the things in regard to the "gospel of the kingdom" such as "water baptism" and the "laying on of hands" which was in regard to receiving the sign gifts.
No,what is sad and pathetic is your unchristianlike assults on my character and your denial of the plain words of Paul that at this time there is but one baptism,and that one baptism is not the "baptism with the Spirit.
What I am presenting is not "man-made doctrines" but instead what I say is supported by the Scriptures.
Freak,I have already given Scriptual evidence that there is but "one baptism" for this time.You either deny that the sign gifts were in regard to a "baptism" (despite the Scriptual evidence to the contrary) or else insist that there is indeed more than one baptism at the present time.Also,I have demonstrated that the author of Hebrews told the Jewish believers to leave the elementary things of Christ behind and go on to maturity.
In His grace,--Jerry
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