Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
I have never seen any evidence that demons are possessing men at this time.
You got to be kidding me. Just because
you haven't seen the evidence doesn't mean there isn't any. When did demons stop possessing people, Jerry according to Scripture. Don't give me your hunch or idea but Scriptural support. In the New Covenant people were possessed by demons and during the tribulation period the anti-Christ will be possessed by a fallen angel-Satan.
I seriously doubt that those from Rome who claim to cast out demons do in fact have the power to cast out demons.
Who cares what Rome thinks. The apostle Paul had authority to drive out a demon in Acts 16.
Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit,
"In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.
Isn't it evident that the "healing" was a part of their ministry?
Yes. This healing ministry continues today in the church for God gives His Body the gift of healing.
There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit...
Now He can say,Did I not send My apostles healing all manner of sicknesses in order that you might know that they were sent of God just as was My Son?
The "supernatural" gifts were
not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this. Besides, First Corinthians 12 speaks of the Body (not necessarily apostles) were given the gifts of miracles.
I do not believe that the miracles were given to "authenticate the Scriptures" but instead to authenticate those who were sent of God.
Jerry think this through Biblically...The Holy Scriptures don't seem to make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts
(Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from other when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).
As I said previously,when the Lord Jesus ministered to the children of Israel it was necessary that He must do miracles in order to fulfill the OT prophecies that spoke of Him.
Let's turn to what the Scriptures teach...
We see throughout the New Covenant that Jesus did miracles to show God's compassion and concern for His people.
Matthew 14:13-14
When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 1When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.
Matthew 20:29-34
As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.
Mark 1:40-42
A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.
"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick"(2Tim.4:20).
God doesn't heal all, sometimes He allows people to suffer for one reason or another. Look at Paul, he was afflicted by a demon and the Lord would not deliver him.
But, as I pointed out, the Body has been given the gift of healing. This gift ought to be used to bring healing. Imagine that.
This is the same Paul whose healing power is described so clearly in the Acts period
Jerry, you haven't thought this through have you? Paul's gifts were subject to God's will. God doesn't save everyone and He doesn't heal everyone, but He does heal some and save some.
If the gift that was given to the church has not been taken away then why do we not ever hear anyone in the churches today speak a language that they have never studied and have no knowledge of as did those at Acts 2:6-11?
A moderator on TOL (ebenz) has testified of experiencing what you have just mentioned. Ask her. Btw, I have also witnessed this phenomena several times.
Those in the churches today are unable to speak in any "known" languages of which they have no knowledge.
So says you. The Bible says differently...
Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored. Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
Paul was clear that the church does have the gift of tongues and we ought not to forbid the use of them. If He gives the gift then I know people have the gift, thereby using it.
There are many deadly poisions out today that will kill anyone who would ingest but just a small amount of them.Is anyone willing to take those deadly poisions in order to prove that these words of Jesus Christ are for today?
Jesus said it, I believe it. If God can heal and I know He can, then alittle poison isn't something He can't stop from hurting someone.
But I am not aware of any professing Christian who has enough belief in there immunity to deadly poisions that they would in fact ingest the poision that I would choose to give them.
But Jesus can.
And during the Acts period the Apostles were able to heal people with "outward" infirmities.Why is it that today the faith healers are unable to do the same thing?
I don't know about faith healers but I do know about those who follow Jesus. God has given His Body the gifts of miracles and healing. If He has then He's still in the business of healing all kinds/forms of afflictions. Nothing is impossible with Him.
Why is it that they cannot heal a deformed arm or something of that nature?
You're focused on people where I'm focused on Jesus. Jesus can heal deformed people and still does.
If we are to follow him in regard to his gifts then should not there be many beliers today who are able to follow his actions as recorded in the following erse?
I have personally been used by the Lord to deliver hundreds of people from demons and have witnessed many people being healed.
If you are correct then perhaps it is only Benny Hinn and those like him who are following Paul.
I'm not familiar with Benny so I can't comment. But there are believers right here on this forum who have testified of God's supernatural power--Ebenaz, Godrulz, Gavin, Free, Theo, myself, etc...
Again,if I could see Christians being able to duplicate the miracles which Paul performed during the ACts period then I would believe that miracles are for today.
You should believe in miracles because of objective truth not due to your experiences. Bad theology you have there, Jerry.
First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.
But the absence of similiar miracles leads me to believe that evidential miracles are not for today.
Where is the evidence for the belief in the God's nature being triune? Besides the Scriptures.
If "miracles" are for today then I cannot understand why believers cannot duplicate the miracles that were performed during the Acts period.
But they are. Besides, you should believe in the reality of miracles because God still gives the gift of miracles to His Body in light of 1 Cor. 12, Gal. 3:5, etc.
If these things are for today then would we not also see "cloven tongues like as of fire" sit upon those who believe?
In His grace,--Jerry
You sound more like an atheist then a believer. Are you not indwelt with the Holy Spirit? This is a supernatural occurance that cannot be explained in the physical, it's spiritual. Same with these spiritual elements, they need to be understood spiritually.
Homework:
If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the apostles, as you claim, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question.
Jerry, I noticed you completely ignored this...
At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.