Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Freak
When did demons stop possessing people, Jerry according to Scripture. Don't give me your hunch or idea but Scriptural support.

Freak,

I believe that over time the power of the demons has been "hindered" by the presence of the Holy Spirit.After the Church of the present dispensation meets the Lord Jesus in the air then the power of the demons will be restored to that of the previous dispensation:

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now hindereth will continue to hinder until He be taken out of the way"(2Thess.2:7).

This refers to the time of the man of sin who will sit in the Temple of God and claim to be God.At that time the evil forces will no longer be restrained by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Paul was clear that the church does have the gift of tongues and we ought not to forbid the use of them.

Paul was converted during a dispensation when water baptism and the gifts of the Holy Spirit were prominent.But those things were not the reason he was sent:

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect"(1Cor.1:17).

He did baptize some with water and many received spiritual gifts.But this was only because the "gospel of the kingdom" was still being preached to the Jews.His Apostleship was strictly in regard to preaching Jesus Christ according the the revelation of the mystery.This was something altogether different from the things of the dispensation that was about to end.

You should believe in miracles because of objective truth not due to your experiences. Bad theology you have there, Jerry.

You are correct that I should not base by opinions on my experiences.However,an understanding of the different dispensations reveals very clearly that the sign gifts do not belong to this dispensation.

Earlier,I asked you,"If these things are for today then would we not also see 'cloven tongues like as of fire' sit upon those who believe?"

To which you said:

You sound more like an atheist then a believer. Are you not indwelt with the Holy Spirit? This is a supernatural occurance that cannot be explained in the physical, it's spiritual. Same with these spiritual elements, they need to be understood spiritually.

The Scriptures that reveal that these things "appreared" to them:

"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them"(Acts2:2,3).

It "filled all the house where they were sitting" and cloven tongues like as of fire "appeared" unto them and "sat upon each of them".

You say that this is a supernatural occurance which cannot be be explained in the physical.However,Luke explained it in "the physical".If nothing has changed since Pentecost in regard to the sign gifts then why doesn't the same thing happen now as it did then?

The experiences today in regard to the any so-called gifts are not the same as it was then.If it doesn't fit,then it is a counterfeit.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I believe that over time the power of the demons has been "hindered" by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

No Scriptural evidence for such belief. In fact, the Bible tells us that evil increases not decreases...

Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

Peter warns the believers...

Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

The apostle Paul tells us...

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

At that time the evil forces will no longer be restrained by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Do you think the Holocuast was driven by the enemy? Do you think partial birth abortion is driven by demons? The Holy Spirit has not restrained the great evils of our day--the killing of innocent babies. God is patient, evil abounds however. Evil hasn't been hindreded. :kookoo:

Paul was converted during a dispensation when water baptism and the gifts of the Holy Spirit were prominent.But those things were not the reason he was sent

We're not talking about water baptism. We're talking about spiritual gift and miracles...

...we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church. Where Jerry did the Scripture tell us that spiritual gifts have been taken away from the Body of Christ?

You are correct that I should not base by opinions on my experiences.

Good. So don't ask me about experiences. Thanks. Our standard for doctrine is Scripture not experience.

So let's turn there for I noticed you didn't finish your homework...

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the apostles, as you claim, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question.

Jerry, I noticed you completely ignored this again...At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

However,an understanding of the different dispensations reveals very clearly that the sign gifts do not belong to this dispensation.

So says dispensationalists but not Scripture...

The Holy Scriptures don't seem to make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from other when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some). The Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body.

You say that this is a supernatural occurance which cannot be be explained in the physical.However,Luke explained it in "the physical".

It was a unique supernatural event like the parting of the red sea.

If nothing has changed since Pentecost in regard to the sign gifts then why doesn't the same thing happen now as it did then?

It may I don't know. All I know is this: God still gives His Body the gift of miracles, see 1Cor. 12, Gal. 3:5, etc...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Freak,

Earlier I said that the experiences today in regard to the so-called sign gifts do not match the experiences of the early church:

"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them"(Acts2:2,3).

It "filled all the house where they were sitting" and cloven tongues like as of fire "appeared" unto them and "sat upon each of them".These things could be "seen" happening with the human eye.I asked you:

"If nothing has changed since Pentecost in regard to the sign gifts then why doesn't the same thing happen now as it did then?"

To which you said:

It may I don't know.

Well,you know in your case,do you not?Did the "cloven tongues like as of fire" sit upon you.Did this things "appear" to you as they did on the day of Pentecost?

The Scriptures reveal that we are to "make joyful noise to God",but the noises I hear coming from those who practice the so-called giift of tongues today is anything but joyful.Instead,much that is witnessed in these movements today more closely resembles something akin to demonical possession.The sounds coming from these groups reminds me of Isaiah's words about "the wizards that chirp and that mutter" (Isaiah 8:19, RV).

The receiving of the so-called spirirtual gifts today do not match what the Scriptures reveal as to how the disciples received those gifts on the day of Pentecost.And the "chipping and muttering" that is heard from those who practice these so-called tongues today are not "joyful noises" that are to be offered to the Lord.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

Earlier I said that the experiences today in regard to the so-called sign gifts do not match the experiences of the early church.

You're looking for experience. My judgements about such things is not rooted in experience but rather objective truth found in Scripture.

Well,you know in your case,do you not?

I've never spoken in tongues so I don't know.

Did the "cloven tongues like as of fire" sit upon you.Did this things "appear" to you as they did on the day of Pentecost?

Jerry, I've never spoken in tongues so why would "cloven tongues like as fire" sit upon me?

Were you aware that tongues, as with every spiritual gift in Scripture, is given according to God...

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given...

Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

No!! God doesn't give all believers the gift of teaching, etc...But He does give at least one gift to all members of the Body.

The Scriptures reveal that we are to "make joyful noise to God",but the noises I hear coming from those who practice the so-called giift of tongues today is anything but joyful.

Jerry, our objective standard to test genuine and false tongues isn't your subjective hunches. Our objective standard is Scripture. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean God doesn't like it. Imagine that. Our faith isn't based on Jerry's hunches but the Bible.

Paul was very clear about his view on tongues...

"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you."

But, our Lord Jesus never spoke in tongues. So we need a balanced Biblically view of this gift...

The Scriptures speaks of 2 kinds of tongues...

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels...

1. The supernatural ability to speak in a known language unknown to the person.

2. The supernatural ability to speak in a spiritual language.

These abilities and gifts are still given to the Body, including the gift of tongues...

...we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church. Where Jerry did the Scripture tell us that spiritual gifts have been taken away from the Body of Christ?

The receiving of the so-called spirirtual gifts today do not match what the Scriptures reveal as to how the disciples received those gifts on the day of Pentecost.

Doesn't matter what you think Jerry. The Scriptures speak of God giving gifts of healing and miracles to the church...1 Cor. 12:7-10...

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

The Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body.

Read what Paul said to the early church in Gal 3:5...

Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Let's move on to your homework...I asked you:

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Silence from Jerry.

 

[godrulz]

As I mentioned earlier, the visible tongues of fire were a sign that the Spirit was GIVEN to the CHURCH at Pentecost. This was a one time event not meant to be normative for every individual who receives the Spirit.

What is normative (precedent/pattern) in the Book of Acts for the INDIVIDUAL is the initial, physical evidence of speaking in tongues when the Spirit was RECEIVED subsequent to salvation (Acts 2:4; 8:17; 9:17, 10:46, 19:6) . This still occurs today as individuals receive the fullness of the Spirit. The Spirit is not given repeatedly to the Church so there are no fire tongues over our heads.

This reasonable explanation is more solid than discounting the validity of the spiritual gifts because fire does not occur (though there have been isolated reports in revivals of tongues of fire being seen).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Freak,
Earlier I said:

...the experiences today in regard to the so-called sign gifts do not match the experiences of the early church.

To which you replied:

You're looking for experience. My judgements about such things is not rooted in experience but rather objective truth found in Scripture.

My questioning in regard to the so-called sign gifts today is supported by the Scriptures.The Apostle John tells us to "test" the spirit in order to determine whether or not it is of God:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world"(1Jn.4:1).

So all I am doing is exactly what John urges us to do.And if the so-called sign gifts of today are of God then they should be the same as they are as recorded in the Scriptures.I have already demonstrated that those who practice the so-called gift of tongues today are not offering "joyful" noises unto the Lord,but instead their noises remind me of Isaiah's words about "the wizards that chirp and that mutter" (Isaiah 8:19, RV).

In these days when the Christian dispensation is drawing to a close Satan is preparing the way when the "man of sin" will be energized by him "with all power and signs and lying wonders"(2Thess.2:9) in order to impersonate the Christ and thus to command the worship of mankind.The Spirit of God also "speaketh expressly" saying that in the "latter time" that some "shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"(1Tim.4:1).

And the Lord also made it known that even though there will be some saying that they cast out demons that these people were never "known" by Him.They were never saved to begin with:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out demons? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you"(Mt.7:23).

So just because some may think that demons are being exorcized today does not mean that this is of God.

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9).

Yes,but how can we follow Paul if we do not believe what he says.In his one of his later epistles (after the testimony to the Jews had ceased) Paul writes the following:

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;One Lord, one faith, one baptism..."(Eph.4:4,5).

This bapism must be the baptism which "giveth life",the baptism which is performed by the Holy Spirit when the believer is identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus and baptized into the Church,which is His Body (1Cor.12:13,27).

This necessarily means that other baptisms are no longer in force during the present dispensation.That means that the "baptism of repentance" is not for the present time,and neither is the baptism where the Lord baptized with the Holy Spirit for power:

"...ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit many days for now...ye shall receive power after the Holy Spirit is come upon you"(Acts1:5,8).

This "power" was in regard to "witnessing" the "gospel of the kingdom"(v.8):

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following"(Mk.16:20).

Today we are not preaching the "gospel of the kingdom",but instead we are preaching the "word of reconciliation",the gospel which proclaims that the believer is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"(Ro.3:23).

That gospel needs nothing to confirm it in any way,and that is because the "gospel of grace" comes in its own power and in the Holy Spirit:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance"(1Thess.1:5).

So if we are going to follow Paul we must believe what he says.And he says that at the present time there is only "one baptism",and that baptism is performed by the Holy Spirit where He identifies the believer with both the life and death of the Lord and Savior.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[freelight]

immersions in God.......

immersions in God.......

Hi Jerry,

There are many baptisms. Repentence is still required and the Lord Jesus still baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire. Jesus is still the baptizer!.........and the anointing of the Spirit for empowerment is still vital and necessary for effective ministry - or do you assume that we no longer need power from on high to do the Lords work


The gospel of the kingdom is still preached and this was never to change according to Jesus. You are building a dispensational mentality with Pauls gospel teachings and are reasoning from his gospel perspectives putting Jesus teaching as less significant.

The Lord Christ equips and empowers his church with all powers, charismas and functions - the ministrations of the Spirit are many and are given to each one accordingly that all may flow in the Unity of the Christ. Truly there is one baptism where we are all put into Christ - but in the whole spectrum of divine ministry there are many baptisms. There are many diversities of spirit-ministrations within the body of the Anointed - anointings, endowments, workings, dynamics, etc.

The wonder and joy of serving in the Spirit is having available all these Spirit-endowments which are ours in Christ. We are complete in Him - he has not left us without his empowering grace which functions thru manifold workings.

In our service to God and Man...all powers of God and the faculties of Man are to be opened to show forth the glory of God. When one surrenders himself as a vessel.....he yields his entire being to God to be used accordingly. The Spirits power is without measure...and faith has the power to save, transform and make whole. In this dimension of course we are challenged with limitations of our human-ness and mortality....but the Spirits power and faith are still ever-potent dynamics in our midst.

It is best to be found with great faith than little or none...and to be led of the Spirit...trusting in God wholly for every provision and work. Wisdom mediates and balances our energies in these endeavors.....however the potency and vitality of our faith is an ever-constant in our fellowship with God and our work here on earth.


Its a wonderful journey,



paul

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

I have already demonstrated that those who practice the so-called gift of tongues today are not offering "joyful" noises unto the Lord...

So says Jerry. Jerry's not the test for doctrine but Scripture is. The Scripture you pointed out deals with spirits that reject the personhood of Christ. I know of no one who speaks in tongues who rejects the personhood of Christ, they're operatingin the Holy Spirit not an unholy spirit as you propose. Your point is moot. The Biblical evidence is in my favor for the gift of tongues being for the church today...

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

The Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body.

but instead their noises remind me of Isaiah's words about "the wizards that chirp and that mutter" (Isaiah 8:19, RV).

We're talking about the Body of Christ not wizards Jerry.

And the Lord also made it known that even though there will be some saying that they cast out demons that these people were never "known" by Him.They were never saved to begin with

There are many who will profess Christ but their hearts are wicked. We know all this.

So just because some may think that demons are being exorcized today does not mean that this is of God.

You remind me of the disciples whom Jesus rebuked...

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

Yes,but how can we follow Paul if we do not believe what he says.

Luke tells us that Paul cast out demons...

Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.

This same Paul whom cast out evil spirits commanded the people of God to follow his example, 1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9. As I mentioned earlier Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

This bapism must be the baptism which "giveth life",the baptism which is performed by the Holy Spirit when the believer is identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus and baptized into the Church,which is His Body (1Cor.12:13,27).

Okay. This discussion is about miracles and spiritual gifts not baptisms.

Today we are not preaching the "gospel of the kingdom",but instead we are preaching the "word of reconciliation",the gospel which proclaims that the believer is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"(Ro.3:23).

Okay we know this. Stop with the smoking screens. The gifts of healing are to heal the sick. This glorifies God. This gift was never taken from the church. In fact, in Acts 10 we read concerning Jesus...

...how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Our Lord Jesus healed the sick and we ought to follow His example in ministry as Paul dictated....

1 Cor. 11:1 "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ."

Christ cast out demons & healed the sick, Paul followed His example and now Paul encouraged the church to follow his example of dealing with demons and healing the sick.

That gospel needs nothing to confirm it in any way,and that is because the "gospel of grace" comes in its own power and in the Holy Spirit:

....how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

So if we are going to follow Paul we must believe what he says.

Not only says, in light of 1 Cor. 11:1, but also follow his example--casting out demons and healing the sick....

Unfinished homework:

The Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles, see 1 Cor. 12, Gal 3:5, Romans 12....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body.

Jerry, think this through Biblically, at least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Perhaps more silence from Jerry?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

ONE BAPTISM

ONE BAPTISM

Originally posted by freelight

Hi Jerry,

There are many baptisms.

freelight,

If there are many baptisms now why does Paul say that there is but one?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Re: ONE BAPTISM

Re: ONE BAPTISM

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

freelight,

If there are many baptisms now why does Paul say that there is but one?

In His grace,--Jerry

What baptism did Paul baptized here:

I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Freak
This discussion is about miracles and spiritual gifts not baptisms.

Freak,

Do you not understand that the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" performed by the Lord Jesus is in regard to the sign gifts?

The Lord Jesus told His disciples to wait in Jerusalem,then told them,"ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence"(Acts1:5).

And the Apostles knew that this baptism was in regard to the sign gifts.Peter said:

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy"(Acts2:16-18).

This is the baptism with the Spirit.But you do not even seem to understand this.You say,"This discussion is about miracles and spiritual gifts not baptisms."

Paul says that there is only one baptism at the present time.And that baptism is performed by the Holy Spirit when believers are identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ and placed in the CHurch,which is His Body.

I can see why you would deny that the miracles and signs were in reference to any baptism,but there can be no doubt that the "baptism with the Spirit" was in regard to the sign gifts.

And you cannot follow Paul if you continue to insist that there is more than one baptism at the present time.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

Do you not understand that the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" performed by the Lord Jesus is in regard to the sign gifts?

The New Covenant, Jerry, specifically commands its readers (those who had been indwelt with the Holy Spirit upon conversion) to "seek," "desire earnestly," "rekindle" and "employ" certain "miraculous" elements (1 Cor 12:3 1; 14:1, 4, 5, and 39; 2 Tm 1:6; 1 Pt 4: 10, cf. Jn 14:12-14; 15:7; 6:23-24--ask for "anything" in the context of the Spirit's descent to the disciples, Jn 3:21-22). These commands were for those who were baptized by the Holy Spirit upon conversion. This is the point you are clearly missing.

Secondly, the Body of Christ has been given the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, etc.. for the edification of the Body...

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.

Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

 

[freelight]

baptism in the Spirit.......

baptism in the Spirit.......

Hi Jerry,

The baptism of the Spirit by the Lord Jesus as prophesied by John the Baptist was not necessarily just for sign-gifts....and was then to fade out or cease. The Lord Jesus is the baptizer with the Holy Spirit and fire. He still baptizes.

There are many kinds of baptisms(Heb. 6:2) - Paul baptized in water ....and also spoke of the spirit-baptism in Christ. If you take the context of Eph 4:1-6 .....you will find that Paul is emphasizing the Unity of the Spirit - the oneness of God and the salvation that is in Christ - he continues one with this idea of oneness/unity and includes 'one baptism' as a feature along with these other singular items which share a relative Unity. Paul synergizes his own concept of Spirit-baptism in Christ......and of course this is a unitarian work. Flowing in the consistency of Pauls other teachings.......he maintains that the Spirit is ever at work in the Body.....and relates the charismas and functions of the Spirit which operate within her. These spiritual operations have not ceased....as the Spirit has not been taken away...and the body needs these gifts for edification, enlightenment, empowerment and for her own enrichment.....until that which is perfect is fully manifest. Those who deny that these gifts are still operative in the church are spiritually bereft and blind - but as shared previously....'to each according to his faith'. It is sad...that many may not have the faith to accept what their Lord has freely given....as is obvious by common sense, scriptural instruction, what is right, seeming and logical.


The Lord Jesus is baptizing today - He immerses with-in the Holy Spirit those who receive Him. John had his baptism unto repentance. Jesus has his baptism with the Holy Spirit. Pauls concept of baptism includes both aspects of these prototypes.....yet his focuses on a spiritual immersion in Christ...where a believer puts on Christ.....and Christ is immersed into the believer. Thru these baptisms we see that repentance is the first step. Then acceptance of the MEssiah...who then immerses the believer in the Holy Spirit. Paul then according to his gospel......teaches that one is immersed into CHrist upon conversion...and takes on CHrist - a spiritual immersion. One is put into Christ...and CHrist is put into them. The emphasis is 'IN' Christ. So...we have baptisms of repentance, Spirit and fire...and in the Christ. These are all features of the universal baptism into God.

John said the Christ comes and he will immerse you in the Spirit and fire. This he has done...and is doing. The empowering anointing of the Spirit is granted inherently in this baptism! The deposit of power/authority and all administrations inhere in this Spirit-sealing. The faithful receive these divine gifts and thru faith appropriate them by divine Will. They are given for service....and the ministers of God are equipped thereby. This is only right, seeming and logical for His grace supplies all things.

May the Spirit of truth open to us the vision of the Christ and his church.....expanding our capacities to see, realize, intuit, understand...and by faith....take up the Spirit-endowments which are ours in Christ to the glory of His Name.




paul

 

[1Way]

The differences matter! Law is not grace, and Jesus is not water.

The differences matter! Law is not grace, and Jesus is not water.

Paul brazenly brags with thanksgiving unto God for not baptizing very many people, and that God did not send him to baptize, but to preach the gospel, ...

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Notice that God through Paul contrasts water baptism against preaching the gospel unto salvation.

Conversely in the circumcision writings,

Mr 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Lu 3:3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

we find water baptism was not excluded from the formula for the gospel unto salvation, it was included. Yet another great example of the differences between the circumcision and uncircumcision teachings! Today under the authority given to Paul alone to give us in the dispensation of “not previously prophesied” “mystery” and “grace”, we have only one baptism (Eph 4.5), and that is spiritual in Christ. Thus to promote water baptism is to promote the common confusion between the two very different sorts of gospel messages between the circ and uncirc believers.

 

[godrulz]

Paul's statement that he preached the gospel and not baptized is a principle against baptismal regeneration. Paul, himself, did not baptize in that specific instance, but it does not mean he never baptized or that other leaders/believers did not baptize the recipients of Paul's message. I would not read too much into the statement in an isolated context. Other verses must be considered to decide if believer's were to be baptized or if there was a different dispensation. It is not normative dispensationalism to deny the validity of believer's baptism today (Enyart's view is not common...cf. Dispensational Baptists who are very strong on baptism as a step of discipleship vs salvation).

 

[1Way]

I have not been sent to baptize, “but to preach the gospel”

(verses)

Repent “and be baptized” for the remission of sins.

I see no reading into what was plainly taught, your mind must be loosing focus to something else other than God’s word, because I see no reading into what was being said, I basically repeated the same teachings and just compared them together. Paul says that water baptism is not part of the gospel, yet the circ writes established that it was part of their gospel.

If I was you, I'd be careful of weeding out from what is in God's word.

 

[Freak]

Gentleman, I would ask that we stay focused on the topic of the thread. Thanks.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by 1Way

I have not been sent to baptize, “but to preach the gospel”

(verses)

Repent “and be baptized” for the remission of sins.

I see no reading into what was plainly taught, your mind must be loosing focus to something else other than God’s word, because I see no reading into what was being said, I basically repeated the same teachings and just compared them together. Paul says that water baptism is not part of the gospel, yet the circ writes established that it was part of their gospel.

If I was you, I'd be careful of weeding out from what is in God's word.

The Greek grammatical structure of Acts 2:38 links repentance with forgiveness of sins (cf. Lk. 24:47), not baptism (which would be an outward evidence of repentance, and not a condition of salvation). Proper exegesis would get around having to over-dispensationalize the Book of Acts for Jew and Gentile (i.e. Acts 2:38 applies to us in principle).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Freak
The New Covenant, Jerry, specifically commands its readers (those who had been indwelt with the Holy Spirit upon conversion) to "seek," "desire earnestly," "rekindle" and "employ" certain "miraculous" elements (1 Cor 12:3 1; 14:1, 4, 5, and 39; 2 Tm 1:6; 1 Pt 4: 10, cf. Jn 14:12-14; 15:7; 6:23-24--ask for "anything" in the context of the Spirit's descent to the disciples, Jn 3:21-22). These commands were for those who were baptized by the Holy Spirit upon conversion. This is the point you are clearly missing.

Freak,

Let us examine the verses that you provided which are contained in the epistles which were written after the Acts period had ended.

"Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands"(2Tim.1:6).

The "gift of God" in this instance is in regard to the "minisrty" which Timothy had been given.This is in regard to the following words of Paul that were addressed to Peter in his first epistle to him:

"Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery"(1Tim.4:14).

The reference here is to the fact that the laying on of hands is associated in the Scriptures with a continuity of leadership.(see Acts 6:6)

So this verse is not speaking of spiritual gifts at all.Here is the next verse you provided:

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God"(1Pet.4:10).

By the "context" we can see that Peter is speaking about the "gospel" and not any "spiritual gifts".Just a few verses earlier,he wrote,"for this cause was the gospel preached"(v.6(.

He tells believers that since they have received the gospel that they should minister that same gospel to others.

Now back to the subject of the "laying on of hands".As already demonstrated,the "laying on of hands" that was done by the "presbytery" is in regard to being made a minister in the Church.But in other places it is indeed associated with the receiving of the sign gifts.

And the author of Hebrews tells those who received his letter to leave these elementary principles and go on unto perfection:

"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2;NASB).

The author of these words is telling these Hebrew believers to "leave" behind these elementary things that were being taught at the time when the Kingdom was still being offered to Israel.These "elemenary" teachings have been replaced by a more perfect ministry.Therefore,he tells these believers to leave these things and to quit laying the foundation for the things in regard to the "laying on of hands".

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul,

You said:

The baptism of the Spirit by the Lord Jesus as prophesied by John the Baptist was not necessarily just for sign-gifts....and was then to fade out or cease. The Lord Jesus is the baptizer with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Yes,John the Baptist prophesised the baptism with the Spirit.We also know that this baptism was prophesised by the OT prophets (Joel 2:28-32;Acts2:16-21).

So the "disprensation" in which the sign gifts were in reference to was a dispensation foretold by the OT prophets.But the dispensation for today was not according to any prophecy,but instead it was kept secret by the Lord until this secret was revealed to Paul.That is why the present dispensation is referred to as the "dispensation of the mystery":

"...and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things"(Eph.3:9;ASV).

Those who think that the sign gifts are for today are attempting to put the things which belonged to a prophesised dispensation into a dispensation that was not prophesised.

We are to "rightly divide" the Scriptures,and that includes rightly dividing the things which belong in one dispensation from those things which belong in others.Nothing but confusion occurs when one attempts to make the things of a prophesised dispensation to be a part of a dispensation that was not prophesised.

In His grace,--Jerry