Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[godrulz]

A grammatical, historical, contextual, theological, literal study of Hebrews 6 would show that the Jewish believers are to leave their Old Covenant (OT) teachings/shadows for the reality of the risen Christ. It talks about baptismS, not New Covenant Christian believer's baptism. Jewish baptisms were not the same as Church baptism. Each of these elementary shadows had a corresponding NT truth that we are to practice or follow (e.g. they repented from dead works that lead to death; we repent from sin, rebellion, selfishness, rejection of the Messiah). The gist is that we are not to trust or be saved by the OT practices, but salvation is a relationship with the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews is not just talking about first century practices that were left mid-Acts. The passage also talks about the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. These teachings were not negated (except a wrong practice of them), but were considered 'elementary teachings about Christ' that were to be built upon. They are to move on to meat and not just milk, and to not trust their previous OT types/symbols now that the fulfillment is here.

Hebrews 6 is a warning to Jewish converts about apostasizing back to Judaism. It is not a proof-text against Christian baptism. Foisting a narrow brand of dispensationalism on to this passage resulting in a gospel for Jewish converts that differs from the gospel for Gentile converts in the early church is a poor hermeneutic and not warranted in the context.

Likewise, all uses of 'laying on of hands' does not refer to sign gifts. There was an OT practice of laying on of hands that was not identical to the Pauline teaching. One has to find out the cultural and historical significance of this OT practice and not confuse it with the NT version of it that is still normative for the Church today. It is sloppy exegesis to superficially read this passage and not make the distinction between the OT context alluded to and other unrelated didactic passages in the NT that are for all Christians through the centuries after the birth of the Church.

It seems to me the distinction is between OT (Jews) and NT (Christians) believers, not Jewish converts and Gentile converts resulting in much of the NT being not primarily for the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,


You just cannot seem to understand that the receiving of the sign gifts was accomplished through the "baptism with the Spirit"

Spiritual gifts were given by the triune God...

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Every gift, spiritual gifts included, come from God, not through the "laying of hands."

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

You must have your two baptisms despite the fact that Paul says that at this time there is but one.

For the Body there has been one baptism...the baptism of the Spirit inot the Body through faith in Christ...

Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism...

You ignore the verses that I provided from the book of Hebrews which demonstrate conclusively that the Jewish believers were told to discontinue the things in regard to the "gospel of the kingdom" such as "water baptism" and the "laying on of hands" which was in regard to receiving the sign gifts.

I ignored your reasoning because it stems from a man made doctrine you're holding unto. My objective standard for truth is rooted in Holy Scripture, which states that gifts of healing & miracles that has been given to the church were not given through the laying upon of hands but rather through the triune God--

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

It is in Christ, the giver of gifts, we receive spiritual gifts not through the laying of hands, Jerry. Rather simple.

No,what is sad and pathetic is your unchristianlike assults on my character

I expected you to react in such manner, for your flesh is easily angered with my continual emphasis on God's Word not hunches.

and your denial of the plain words of Paul that at this time there is but one baptism,and that one baptism is not the "baptism with the Spirit.

God's Word states clearly: The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.

We are baptized by the Holy Spirit into one body. This occurs at justification. Then God gives His body spiritual gifts.

What I am presenting is not "man-made doctrines" but instead what I say is supported by the Scriptures.

Hardly. But fell free to be deceived.

Now, Jerry, feel free to deal with the Scriptural record, since you haven't yet, regarding spiritual gifts for the church...

Anyone reading the New Covenant, in particular, should have no problem discovering not only numerous examples of miracles in the form of healing, prophecy, tongues, etc., but clear instruction on the functioning of spiritual gifts in the church (e.g., the book of Acts, Romans 12: 6-8; 1 Cor. 12:4-11, 28-30; 13; 14; and Eph. 4:7-12). Spiritual gifts were bestowed upon the church, the Body of Christ, both as a witness to the unbelieving world and for empowerment and Jerry you have failed to provide any Scriptural evidence that these gifts were taken from the Body.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Freak
Every gift, spiritual gifts included, come from God, not through the "laying of hands."

Freak,

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied"(Acts19:6).

"Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money..."(Acts8:17,18).

Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism...

The "baptism with the Holy Spirit" was in regard to receiving the "sign gifts".The Lord told His disciples to wait in Jerusalem and they would receive this baptism (Acts1:4,5).

And while they waited on the day of Pentecost they received this "baptism with the Spirit"(Acts2:1-18).This is not the same "baptism" whereby the believer is baptized into the Body of Christ.The men at Acts 19:1-6 were already saved and baptized into the Body of Christ but yet they had not yet received the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" in order to receive the sign gifts.

My objective standard for truth is rooted in Holy Scripture, which states that gifts of healing & miracles that has been given to the church were not given through the laying upon of hands but rather through the triune God--

You cannot see a progressive development in the Scriptures in regard to the sign gifts.And you say that your objective standard of truth is rooted in Holy Scripture but at the same time you insist that there is more than one baptism for the Church today despite Paul's words that there is only "one baptism".

You continue to quote verses that demonstrate that at one time those in the church did in fact possess sign gifts.I never denied that.So you can cease from quoting those verses over and over.

It is in Christ, the giver of gifts, we receive spiritual gifts not through the laying of hands, Jerry. Rather simple.

I can understand why you would deny that the "laying on of hands" had nothing to do with the receiving of sign gifts,especially since the author of Hebrews tells believers to "leave" those things behind and move on to maturity:

"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2;NASB).

I expected you to react in such manner, for your flesh is easily angered with my continual emphasis on God's Word not hunches.

I am not angered at all.I just wonder why you must revert to behavior that is at odds with Paul's instructions to "forebear one another in love,endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"(Eph.4:2,3).

We are baptized by the Holy Spirit into one body. This occurs at justification. Then God gives His body spiritual gifts.

We can see that the believers at Acts 19:1-6 had already been saved but yet they did not receive the sign gifts until Paul had "laid his hands upon them".

Now, Jerry, feel free to deal with the Scriptural record, since you haven't yet, regarding spiritual gifts for the church...

I do not know why you fail to realize that I have already said numerous times that at one time the sign gifts were a part of the church.But you continue to quote those same verses and say that I refuse to deal with them.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

godrulz,

In regard to Hebrews 6:1-2 you say:

Originally posted by godrulz
It seems to me the distinction is between OT (Jews) and NT (Christians) believers, not Jewish converts and Gentile converts resulting in much of the NT being not primarily for the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

The author of Hebrews is addessing NT Christians.He tells them that the Old has been done away and replaced by the New (Heb.7:18-22).

The Jewish believers who started out under the Old Covenant and went on to the New referred to themselves as "Christians"(1Pet.4:16).

So the author of Hebrews is telling these NT Christians to leave such things as "the baptism of repentance" and the "laying on of hands" that brought the sign gifts.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied"(Acts19:6).

It wasn't the laying upon of hands that caused the gifts to come. It was the Holy Spirit that gave them the gifts--"the Holy Spirit came on them and they spake with tongues..."

This is consistent with Scripture that tells us that spiritual gifts were given by the triune God...

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Every gift, spiritual gifts included, come from God, not through the "laying of hands." Jerry, there wasn't anything special about the laying of hands except that is was symbolic. Hands do not possess the ability to give gifts. That is reserved for God alone as we see here...

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Note the bold Jerry. The spiritual gifts the church received wasn't from hands but rather the triune God. Your shaky theology needs some Biblical tune-up.

"Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money..."(Acts8:17,18).

Hands do not give gifts. Only God is the giver of spiritual gifts...

To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits...

You cannot see a progressive development in the Scriptures in regard to the sign gifts.

I see further down, in light of Scripture, then you do. You're stuck with the church in Acts. Move on to the church in Corinth, for example, that were baptized into the Body through faith in Christ.

For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

This was the members of the Body at Corinth. These same believers had these gifts...

To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues...

And you say that your objective standard of truth is rooted in Holy Scripture but at the same time you insist that there is more than one baptism for the Church today despite Paul's words that there is only "one baptism"

Re-read what I posted last time. I said there was but one baptism--the baptism into the Body by the Holy Spirit. I realize you're still on milk but come on Jerry, keep up.

You continue to quote verses that demonstrate that at one time those in the church did in fact possess sign gifts.I never denied that.So you can cease from quoting those verses over and over.

I quote Scripture for it is living and active (Hebrews 4:12) and is useful to teach people like you (2 Tim. 4:1-4). I noticed you still ignore the basic Scriptural facts...that there is, first of all, no Biblical warrant to throw out certain gifts from the body of Christ. Jerry, you are lacking in Biblical support. It seems you're simply relying on your theological bias rather than presenting strong biblical injunctions against the continuance of sign gifts. In fact we see that the Body using the gift of miracles (and being encouraged) and other gifts...

1 Corinthians 14:1 reports: Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

Galatians 3:5 reports: Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

I can understand why you would deny that the "laying on of hands" had nothing to do with the receiving of sign gifts,

I deny that because it lacks Scriptural support, Jerry. In fact, we are told over and over again that God is the one whom gives spiritual gifts not hands. :doh:

I am not angered at all.

Great to hear.Now if you'd place your flesh under Scripture you'd be fine.

I just wonder why you must revert to behavior that is at odds with Paul's instructions to "forebear one another in love,endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"(Eph.4:2,3).

The Book of Jude tells us that we must..."contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints." The Biblical faith includes a proper Scriptural understanding of spiritual gifts that has been bestowed upon the Body. I'm contending and correcting you in light of the Biblical record.

We can see that the believers at Acts 19:1-6 had already been saved but yet they did not receive the sign gifts until Paul had "laid his hands upon them"

It wasn't because of some hand that they received gifts, Jerry. The Holy Spirit determines gifts (see 1 Cor. 12) not hands. What kind of supersition are you into these days? Sounds like you been studying some voodoo.

I do not know why you fail to realize that I have already said numerous times that at one time the sign gifts were a part of the church.

But there is no Scriptural evidence that these gifts disappeared as you'd like for us to believe. In fact, we see that the apostle Paul telling us otherwise. Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

 

[godrulz]

The immediate context is a warning about apostasy...returning to Judaism instead of trusting Christ (Heb. 6:6). The book is written to Jewish Christians and by application all believers. The writer is not saying to leave Christian baptism, but the baptisms of Judaism. The laying on of hands in the verse (Jewish) is not the same as millions of Pentecostals practice today (with the evidence of speaking in tongues). Similar does not mean identical. We had a believer's baptism today. The presence of God and public testimony was powerful. In many countries, people can go to church or claim to be believers. When they are baptized in obedience to the Word, that is the point where their families disown them and false religions persecute and kill them.

To dispensationalize away baptism and the spiritual gifts leads to lack of discipleship and disobedience to the Word and Spirit. I am persuaded that an interpretation that leads to these conclusions is simply faulty.

Millions have been baptized (water and Spirit) and experience the gifts of the Spirit. They are a blessing from God, glorify Him, and edify the Church (and act as a witness to an unbelieving world).

 

[BillyBob]

:News Headline:

'Big Fat Bloated Gay Guy Found With BaseBall Bat Lodged In His Skull'

Nobody came to mourn the death of Tye Porter, who fell and hit his head on a baseball bat earlier this week in a freak accident. It has been reported that everyone who knew him found him to be a vile, disgusting waste of human flesh. Even the Colorado State Police refused to investigate this seemingly unlikely accident because they knew Mr./Ms. Porter to be a closet homo sexual, a transvestite and a complete nut case.

When pressed for information, State Police Investigator Heywood Jablowme admitted that he had a short fling with Tye but found him to be too needy. He also said, "If I wanted a whiny, needy, stupid mate, I would have stayed heterosexual'.

Tye will be buried in a piano case later today, as a coffin large enough for him could not be located. It is estimated that it will take him at least 5oo years of decomposition to lose enough weight to be considered normal for his height, which is soon to be 6 feet under.

So long Tye, we will miss you.....NOT!

:darwinsm:

 

[drbrumley]

Thats it!

I can't even read a thread seperate from BillyBob and Tye and STILL have to look at the garbage just posted.

I hate to say it, but banning is IN THE INTERST OF THIS BOARD! Do it or I'm gone. I'm sick of the BillyBob/Tye distraction.

 

[drbrumley]

Defending yourself? You have almost 1000 threads in which you two can go at it. You wanna kill each other, go ahead. But you can do it on your own threads and not post stupid crap like that on a thread you weren't even a part of.


Thank YOU!

 

[BillyBob]

OK, Doc.

 

[drbrumley]

I do appreciate it BB, I really do.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Thats it!

I can't even read a thread seperate from BillyBob and Tye and STILL have to look at the garbage just posted.

I hate to say it, but banning is IN THE INTERST OF THIS BOARD! Do it or I'm gone. I'm sick of the BillyBob/Tye distraction.

I'm with you. This is getting insane. BB, stop trashing our threads. :down:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by godrulz

Millions have been baptized (water and Spirit) and experience the gifts of the Spirit. They are a blessing from God, glorify Him, and edify the Church (and act as a witness to an unbelieving world).

:up:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Freak,

I provided the following verse that the "laying on of hands" was in regard to receiving the sign gifts:

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied"(Acts19:6).

But you say:

Originally posted by Freak
It wasn't the laying upon of hands that caused the gifts to come. It was the Holy Spirit that gave them the gifts--"the Holy Spirit came on them and they spake with tongues..."

Are you saying that the "laying on of hands" had nothing to do with the fact that they received the Holy Spirit and they began to speak with tongues?

Perhaps it was just a coincidence that these things happened when Paul laid his hands upon them.Is that what you are saying?Why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them anyway?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[godrulz]

Our church (Assembly of God equivalent) lays hands on people and they speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

I know this is anecdotal...

Our Pastor's son's wife is pregnant and had a large cyst threatening the pregnancy (ultrasound confirms). After a few days of prayer, the second u/s shows no evidence of the large cyst. It is not medically possible for it to spontaneously disappear.

We prayed for another man who was about to have his leg amputated due to diabetes. They could not find a vein to restore circulation. Within a week of praying, his leg is saved due to a change in response to prayer. These are recent examples in my sphere. Stories could be multiplied weekly from charismatic believers around the world.

I am thankful for a living God and a people who know their God and do exploits. My wife remains unhealed, and may never be healed. I am thankful I do not attend a church that relegates miracles to a past dispensation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by godrulz
I am thankful for a living God and a people who know their God and do exploits. My wife remains unhealed, and may never be healed. I am thankful I do not attend a church that relegates miracles to a past dispensation.

godrulz,

I never denied that the Lord can heal during the present time.After all,we are told to pray to the Lord to make our requests be known.I believe that the Lord does indeed heal people during the present dispensation.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

godrulz,

I never denied that the Lord can heal during the present time.After all,we are told to pray to the Lord to make our requests be known.I believe that the Lord does indeed heal people during the present dispensation.

In His grace,--Jerry

Sorry...this is for Clete and others (you do not attend an Enyart church I take it).

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I provided the following verse that the "laying on of hands" was in regard to receiving the sign gifts:

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied"(Acts19:6).

You need to look at the whole counsel of God, Jerry. The Scriptures are clear:

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Every gift, spiritual gifts included, come from God, not through the "laying of hands." As I mentioned earlier the laying upon of hands are simply symbolic just as water baptism is symbolic. There is no reason to believe, in light of the Scripural record, that hands can given someone powers. That's abusrd.

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

But you say:

Are you saying that the "laying on of hands" had nothing to do with the fact that they received the Holy Spirit and they began to speak with tongues?

Yes. Hands had nothing to do with spiritual gifts. Laying of hands is merely symbolic, that's all.

Perhaps it was just a coincidence that these things happened when Paul laid his hands upon them.Is that what you are saying?Why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them anyway?

In His grace,--Jerry

We see from Scripture that God gives spiritual gifts not the hands...

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

The laying of hands like anoiting oil or marriage rings are symbolic, that's all. You're trying to read more into the text then there is to read. God is the giver of gifts not hands.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by godrulz

Our Pastor's son's wife is pregnant and had a large cyst threatening the pregnancy (ultrasound confirms). After a few days of prayer, the second u/s shows no evidence of the large cyst. It is not medically possible for it to spontaneously disappear.

We prayed for another man who was about to have his leg amputated due to diabetes. They could not find a vein to restore circulation. Within a week of praying, his leg is saved due to a change in response to prayer. These are recent examples in my sphere. Stories could be multiplied weekly from charismatic believers around the world.

I am thankful for a living God and a people who know their God and do exploits. My wife remains unhealed, and may never be healed. I am thankful I do not attend a church that relegates miracles to a past dispensation.

:thumb: Our God is desiring to work in His body to bring healing and deliverance to the hurting.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Freak
Every gift, spiritual gifts included, come from God, not through the "laying of hands."

Freak,

I agree with you that the "source" of every gift is the LOrd God.But you did not answer my questions in regard to the following verse:

""And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied"(Acts19:6).

I asked you:

Are you saying that the "laying on of hands" had nothing to do with the fact that they received the Holy Spirit and they began to speak with tongues?

Perhaps it was just a coincidence that these things happened when Paul laid his hands upon them.Is that what you are saying?Why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them anyway?

In His grace,--Jerry