For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

[Jerry Shugart]

I thought what STP said was very simple, but you managed to twist it up pretty good. So who has the problem? :chuckle:

Here is what he said:

Post Acts, Paul preached the mystery of the gospel. This was a mystery hidden in God (not the prophets). This mystery was that the gospel included Gentiles who were not in the promises made to Abraham. The mystery of the gospel is the gospel of the grace of God.

This is my reply to him:

So according to your ideas, the Apostle Paul did not preach the gospel of grace during the Acts period. If that is true then how do you explain the fact that Paul himself says in the book of Acts that he did preach the gospel of grace?:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24).​

The epistle to the Romans was written during the Acts period and it is clear to anyone with an open mind that Paul was indeed preaching the gospel of grace in that epistle.

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Now tell me why STP would say that the preaching of the gospel of grace by Paul was post-Acts since it is obvious to anyone who will use their brain that he preached that gospel during the Acts period?

 

[glorydaz]

Here is what he said:



This is my reply to him:

So according to your ideas, the Apostle Paul did not preach the gospel of grace during the Acts period. If that is true then how do you explain the fact that Paul himself says in the book of Acts that he did preach the gospel of grace?:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24).​

The epistle to the Romans was written during the Acts period and it is clear to anyone with an open mind that Paul was indeed preaching the gospel of grace in that epistle.

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Now tell me why STP would say that the preaching of the gospel of grace by Paul was post-Acts since it is obvious to anyone who will use their brain that he preached that gospel during the Acts period?

Did paul preach it post Acts as STP stated or not?

You, yourself, admit that he did.


If your mind was not such a closed book, you'd be able to listen. :chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Did paul preach it post Acts as STP stated or not?

You do not see what point that STP was trying to make. He said:

During Acts, Paul preached the mystery of Christ. This was a mystery hidden in the scriptures of the prophets. This mystery was that indeed Christ died for our (Israel and Gentiles in the promises) sins. The mystery of Christ is the gospel of Christ.

Post Acts, Paul preached the mystery of the gospel. This was a mystery hidden in God (not the prophets). This mystery was that the gospel included Gentiles who were not in the promises made to Abraham. The mystery of the gospel is the gospel of the grace of God.

Here STP was showing when Paul preached two different truths. And according to this it was not until post-Acts when the gospel of grace was preached by Paul.

Do you agree with that?

 

[glorydaz]

Tam :wave2:

It helps me to think of it this way. The parts that make up the gospel of Christ, 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV) can be found scattered throughout the scriptures of the prophets. And, the fact that Jews and some Gentiles would be blessed with hearing it was in the prophets. But, not until it was revealed to Paul was it put together into a unit. Then, Paul could look back into the OT and show his hearers that it was promised to them. So, the gospel of Christ is the mystery of Christ, and it's parts and audience could be found in the OT.

Now onto the gospel of the grace of God which is the mystery of the gospel. It was not hidden in the OT, but rather hidden in God. The parts of this gospel are the same, but the audience includes Gentiles who could not look back into the OT and see their salvation. It includes Gentiles who were the cursed of Gen 12:1-3 (KJV).

So, during Acts you have Jews and Gentiles that Paul could use the OT to reach and save. Post Acts, you have Gentiles that were reached and saved in spite of what the OT said about them. These two groups are saved into the same Body and formed the one new man.

You do not see what point that STP was trying to make. He said:



Here STP was showing when Paul preached two different truths. And according to this it was not until post-Acts when the gospel of grace was preached by Paul.

Do you agree with that?

I can't say I do. I think you may be reading INTO what was said. Instead of trying to cram your understanding down the throats of other posters, and get them to side with you, you should exhibit a bit of patience and see what STP has to say. In the mean time, you might read the post I quoted above. Maybe that would help.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I can't say I do. I think you may be reading INTO what was said. Instead of trying to cram your understanding down the throats of other posters, and get them to side with you, you should exhibit a bit of patience and see what STP has to say.

I am the one with patience because I have been waiting for STP to answer. In the meantime, people like you are the ones with no patience because you did not wait to hear what STP had to say about my comments. Instead, you used what I said to attack me. And now you cannot even understand that STP was speaking of two different truths and WHEN Paul preached those truths:

During Acts, Paul preached the mystery of Christ. This was a mystery hidden in the scriptures of the prophets. This mystery was that indeed Christ died for our (Israel and Gentiles in the promises) sins. The mystery of Christ is the gospel of Christ.

Post Acts, Paul preached the mystery of the gospel. This was a mystery hidden in God (not the prophets). This mystery was that the gospel included Gentiles who were not in the promises made to Abraham. The mystery of the gospel is the gospel of the grace of God.

Why would STP say that Paul preached the mystery of the gospel (the gospel of grace) post-Acts if he thought that it was preached during Acts?

Of course you will offer no answer. I say that he said what he did because he did not think that Paul preached the mystery of the gospel (the gospel of grace) during Acts. And that makes perfect sense.

You have not given any answer that explains why he wrote what he did. You do not care what the truth is. All you care about is attacking me.

 

[glorydaz]

I am the one with patience because I have been waiting for STP to answer. In the meantime, people like you are the ones with no patience because you did not wait to hear what STP had to say about my comments. Instead, you used what I said to attack me. And now you cannot even understand that STP was speaking of two different truths and WHEN Paul preached those truths:



Why would STP say that Paul preached the mystery of the gospel (the gospel of grace) post-Acts if he thought that it was preached during Acts?

Of course you will offer no answer. I say that he said what he did because he did not think that Paul preached the mystery of the gospel (the gospel of grace) during Acts. And that makes perfect sense.

You have not given any answer that explains why he wrote what he did. You do not care what the truth is. All you care about is attacking me.

My answer to you, Jerry, is that I've gone round the merry-go-round with you before and there is no end to the ride. That may be why STP hasn't responded yet. I don't know. I commented because you insisted on comments from whoever was dumb enough to respond, and I fit that bill once again.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

My answer to you, Jerry, is that I've gone round the merry-go-round with you before and there is no end to the ride. That may be why STP hasn't responded yet. I don't know. I commented because you insisted on comments from whoever was dumb enough to respond, and I fit that bill once again.

As usual when you cannot answer what I said you just make up an excuse to explain why you refuse to answer. Again, here is what I said earlier and it is obvious why you make up an excuse for not answering my question:

Why would STP say that Paul preached the mystery of the gospel (the gospel of grace) post-Acts if he thought that it was preached during Acts?

I say that STP said what he did because he did not think that Paul preached the mystery of the gospel (the gospel of grace) during Acts period. And that makes perfect sense.

You have not given any answer that explains why he wrote what he did. You do not care what the truth is.​

 

[patrick jane]

You do not see what point that STP was trying to make. He said:



Here STP was showing when Paul preached two different truths. And according to this it was not until post-Acts when the gospel of grace was preached by Paul.

Do you agree with that?

two different mysteries -:noid:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

two different mysteries -:noid:

The" gospel of grace" was one mystery and it began to be preached during the Mid Acts period to all the unsaved and it is still preached today:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known..." (Ro.16:25-26; NIV).​

The mystery of Christ is another mystery, but it was made known only to those who were already members of the Body of Christ. This is not something which is preached to those who have not been born again:

"In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus" (Eph.3:4-6).​

The teaching of the Church, which is His Body, is a truth which is exclusively for the Christian, a truth that cannot be understood until one is first quickened by the Holy Spirit upon believing the "gospel of grace": "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Co.2:14).

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I generally fast from TOL on weekends and holidays.
I will respond later!

 

[heir]

I generally fast from TOL on weekends and holidays.
I will respond later!

What's funny is, the answer is already in the thread. :crackup:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

What's funny is, the answer is already in the thread. :crackup:

Yes, it is.

Gospel of Christ- 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV), to Jews and Gentiles in the promises. Preached during Acts.

Gospel of the Grace of God- Is 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV) to all men, including Gentiles outside the promises. Preached post Acts.

The content of the message is the same , just with an expanded reach.

 

[Danoh]

What's funny is, the answer is already in the thread. :crackup:

What's funnier is that Jerry posted the correct answer, that I also see, and he could not see he and I agree on it, lol

In essence, we have Mid-Actsers not only not in agreement with each other on this, but some who are think some are not, while others are not sure why they are in agreement with one thing, at the same time they are in disagreement with the other view; what ever it is...

One thing is for certain; we should not be one another's enemies over our differences in understanding.

We are not that far apart, nor is it that big a deal.

None of this is anything a healthy dose of Romans 14 cannot enable us to come to the table in the spirit of.

"For whatsover is not of faith; is sin" is also "Pauline."

 

[heir]

Yes, it is.

Gospel of Christ- 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV), to Jews and Gentiles in the promises. Preached during Acts.

Gospel of the Grace of God- Is 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV) to all men, including Gentiles outside the promises. Preached post Acts.

The content of the message is the same , just with an expanded reach.

:up:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4314532&postcount=1473

 

[Danoh]

Dearest Whombora! :wave2:

This is how I see this:

During Acts, Paul preached the mystery of Christ. This was a mystery hidden in the scriptures of the prophets. This mystery was that indeed Christ died for our (Israel and Gentiles in the promises) sins. The mystery of Christ is the gospel of Christ.

Post Acts, Paul preached the mystery of the gospel. This was a mystery hidden in God (not the prophets). This mystery was that the gospel included Gentiles who were not in the promises made to Abraham. The mystery of the gospel is the gospel of the grace of God.

The twain formed the one new man.

I find that is off. Gentiles had access to Israel's promises through Israel, just as they will in the Millennium.

What did the Lord remind the Gentile woman of in Mark 7? "Let the children first be filled."

Matthew 15 relates she acknowledged Him as David's son.

In verse 15 He heals her daughter based on her faith.

What was healing a sign of? The forgiveness of sins, Matt. 9:6.

Its why the issue that took place in Acts 10, 11, and 15; and at the UNcircumcision churches at Galatia, of the two kinds that were in Galatia, Acts 16; Rom. 15.

Gentiles had always had access to God - but through circumcision and the Law.

There was no hidden mystery there.

As for the Blood; it was not preached before Paul not because the Lord had not re-emphasized what His sufferings would accomplish for Israel, but because God was not through proving Israel under sin until about Acts 7.

This is the issue in Romans 2, 3, 9-11.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Gospel of Christ- 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV), to Jews and Gentiles in the promises. Preached during Acts.

Let us start here. Do you believe that the same gospel was preached to the Jews and to the Gentiles during the Acts period?

That certainly seems to be what you are saying.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Let us start here. Do you believe that the same gospel was preached to the Jews and to the Gentiles during the Acts period?

That certainly seems to be what you are saying.

Paul preached the same gospel to the Jews and Greeks that he preached to, yes.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I find that is off. Gentiles had access to Israel's promises through Israel, just as they will in the Millennium.

What did the Lord remind the Gentile woman of in Mark 7? "Let the children first be filled."

Matthew 15 relates she acknowledged Him as David's son.

In verse 15 He heals her daughter based on her faith.

What was healing a sign of? The forgiveness of sins, Matt. 9:6.

Its why the issue that took place in Acts 10, 11, and 15; and at the UNcircumcision churches at Galatia, of the two kinds that were in Galatia, Acts 16; Rom. 15.

Gentiles had always had access to God - but through circumcision and the Law.

There was no hidden mystery there.

As for the Blood; it was not preached before Paul not because the Lord had not re-emphasized what His sufferings would accomplish for Israel, but because God was not through proving Israel under sin until about Acts 7.

This is the issue in Romans 2, 3, 9-11.

Danoh, the Great, can you elaborate which mystery I listed that you take exception to? I'm not following completely. thanks

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul preached the same gospel to the Jews and Greeks that he preached to, yes.

Please show me just one instance where Paul preached the gospel of grace to the Jews during the Acts period?

Here is what Paul was preaching to the Jews during the Acts period:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

That was the same gospel which Paul continued to preach to the Jews:

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts17:2,30).​

That is the same gospel message which Peter preached to the Jews during the Acts period and that is the same gospel message which Apollos preached to them during the Acts period.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Please show me just one instance where Paul preached the gospel of grace to the Jews during the Acts period?

Here is what Paul was preaching to the Jews during the Acts period:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

That was the same gospel which Paul continued to preach to the Jews:

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts17:2,30).​

That is the same gospel message which Peter preached to the Jews during the Acts period and that is the same gospel message which Apollos preached to them during the Acts period.

There is no "gospel of grace", but the "gospel of Christ" was preached here. Once again, the "gospel of the grace of God" is the "gospel of Christ" with an expanded reach.



Acts 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Acts 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

Acts 13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

Acts 13:5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.

Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:

Acts 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.

Acts 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Acts 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

Acts 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

Acts 13:13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.

Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Acts 13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

Acts 13:18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.

Acts 13:19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

Acts 13:20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

Acts 13:21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

Acts 13:25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Acts 13:28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

Acts 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

Acts 13:31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Acts 13:49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Acts 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.

Acts 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

Acts 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.