For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

steko

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Acts 17:11 KJV
(11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.​


Was this happening before or after Paul preached to Thessalonia (epistles to Thessalonians)?

The reason I ask is because he states that searching the scriptures is the way to know for certain if what Paul is teaching at the time is true or not.

Searching the scriptures at that time would have been the OT.
So, if at this time Paul is already preaching the gospel of the mystery that was hidden in the OT ....... then what would be the point of searching the OT for it?

I was processing this very thing recently and it appears to me that Paul is addressing primarily Jews in their synagogues and demonstrating from the OT scriptures that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah of Israel and that He had to suffer and rise from the dead.

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.


I have concluded that he taught this same content at Berea.
It's the same content that Paul preached to the Jews after his conversion:

Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.



This message is obviously not the comprehensive content expressed in Romans-Philemon concerning the BOC but is in harmony with scriptures for Israel such as:


Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.


Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Acts 13 seems to be the beginning of the new commission:

Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.


So at the end of Paul's long presentation to the Jews regarding Israel's history, he says:

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
 
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Tambora

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I was processing this very thing recently and it appears to me that Paul is addressing primarily Jews in their synagogues and demonstrating from the OT scriptures that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah of Israel and that He had to suffer and rise from the dead.

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.


I have concluded that he taught this same content at Berea.

This message is obviously not the comprehensive content expressed in Romans-Philemon concerning the BOC.
Yep. I would tend to agree as it specifically says he was in the synagogue of the Jews .

But I am still wondering if Paul had already preached in Thessalonia.
It appears that he did since he says the Bereans were more noble than they.
So was his epistles to the Thessalonians written before or after this timeframe of Acts 17?


Trying to get a good grasp of just when Paul left the kingdom gospel behind to teach the grace gospel. (Left behind probably isn't a good term, but you get the gist.)
By Acts 17, he is still preaching the kingdom gospel.
 

steko

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Yep. I would tend to agree as it specifically says he was in the synagogue of the Jews .

But I am still wondering if Paul had already preached in Thessalonia.
It appears that he did since he says the Bereans were more noble than they.
So was his epistles to the Thessalonians written before or after this timeframe of Acts 17?


Trying to get a good grasp of just when Paul left the kingdom gospel behind to teach the grace gospel. (Left behind probably isn't a good term, but you get the gist.)
By Acts 17, he is still preaching the kingdom gospel.

It appears that Paul wrote to the Thessolonians after his visit there and sometime after he got to Corinth.

Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;


From what I can gather, Gallio was deputy during 51AD - 52AD.

Act 18:12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
 

Danoh

New member
Acts 17:11 KJV
(11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.​


Was this happening before or after Paul preached to Thessalonia (epistles to Thessalonians)?

The reason I ask is because he states that searching the scriptures is the way to know for certain if what Paul is teaching at the time is true or not.

Searching the scriptures at that time would have been the OT.
So, if at this time Paul is already preaching the gospel of the mystery that was hidden in the OT ....... then what would be the point of searching the OT for it?

The short answer is two-fold, as I'd like to get more into how to solve for these great questions. The short answer is...

One: Paul did share the Mystery in Acts 17, as many of the truths in 1 and 2 Thessalonians are not only Mystery truths, but he relates there that he is reminding them he had shared same with them.

The delay in Daniel's 70th week, the fact of our delivering from the wrath to come, and so on.

Two: As he relates in Romans 15 and elsewhere, his signs as an Apostle had served as proof his word was from God.

There are basically two ways to look at all these issues - deductively too soon, or inductively first.

The order in which those two are applied will determine whether one ends up Acts 2, Acts 9, or Acts 28, for example.

Said order will also determine the consistency with which one actually applies the Dispensational Hermeneutic that resulted in the re-emergence of Dispensationalism to begin with.

Its every opponent applies deductive reasoning.

But, very often, so do many within the Dispensational Hermeneutic, whether they are aware or not that such is the case.

Their conclusions make it obvious that they have failed to apply the Dispensational Hermeneutic as consistently as they either believe they have, or assert.

In fact, whenever you find a strong disagreement in understanding, even within Acts 9 brethren, the above is the very heart of said difference, when pride and or the need to glory in the flesh of others, is not also a contributing factor.

The order those two - induction and deduction - are applied in, is also how it is that some are able to continue to refine to the impressive level of continuing refinement that they have consistently been able to.
 

steko

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I have no firm conclusions on the current question.
I'm merely pulling out of the text what appears to be there.
I'm remaining open on this.
 

Tambora

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The short answer is two-fold, as I'd like to get more into how to solve for these great questions. The short answer is...

One: Paul did share the Mystery in Acts 17, as many of the truths in 1 and 2 Thessalonians are not only Mystery truths, but he relates there that he is reminding them he had shared same with them.

The delay in Daniel's 70th week, the fact of our delivering from the wrath to come, and so on.

Two: As he relates in Romans 15 and elsewhere, his signs as an Apostle had served as proof his word was from God.

There are basically two ways to look at all these issues - deductively too soon, or inductively first.

The order in which those two are applied will determine whether one ends up Acts 2, Acts 9, or Acts 28, for example.

Said order will also determine the consistency with which one actually applies the Dispensational Hermeneutic that resulted in the re-emergence of Dispensationalism to begin with.

Its every opponent applies deductive reasoning.

But, very often, so do many within the Dispensational Hermeneutic, whether they are aware or not that such is the case.

Their conclusions make it obvious that they have failed to apply the Dispensational Hermeneutic as consistently as they either believe they have, or assert.

In fact, whenever you find a strong disagreement in understanding, even within Acts 9 brethren, the above is the very heart of said difference, when pride and or the need to glory in the flesh of others, is not also a contributing factor.

The order those two - induction and deduction - are applied in, is also how it is that some are able to continue to refine to the impressive level of continuing refinement that they have consistently been able to.
Huh?
 

Danoh

New member
It appears that Paul wrote to the Thessolonians after his visit there and sometime after he got to Corinth.

Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;


From what I can gather, Gallio was deputy during 51AD - 52AD.

Act 18:12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,

Posted the friend request. Not sure if it posted as I still don't know how everything works.

Anyway, as to your above; true, but in both Epistles he reminds them that he shared the things he is writing to them about.

Further, the order of his Church Epistles, not as they were written, but after they were, is in the order in which the Mystery plays out; its why the Thessalonian Epistles are last in that order - they contain Truth dealing with just before, as well as, a bit after, Romans 11:25-39 truth.

Its the same with all his Church Epistles written before the close of Acts - they all contain Mystery Truth whether or not he points it out to the extent he does in his later does in his prison Epistles.

1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15, are based on Romans 3 thru 8 and yet Romans was written after those two, for example.

And these kinds of examples there are many.

Note also what he asserts at the end of Acts 17 about "the times of this ignorance... But now..."

That is Romans 1-3, Romans 9-11, Ephesians 2, and so on.

The clincher? What he asserts in Acts in each of his accounts of what the Lord told him when He first saved him.

Anyway, thanks for the friend request; hopefully I can live up to it 😊
 

Tambora

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Following up with the fact that Paul was not teaching the mystery to the Bereans in Acts 17:11, due to the fact that Paul says they can find what he teaches by studying the OT scriptures.

Then we have Paul in Acts 26:
Acts 26:22 KJV
(22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:​

This is in contrast to preaching the mystery that was hidden.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Following up with the fact that Paul was not teaching the mystery to the Bereans in Acts 17:11, due to the fact that Paul says they can find what he teaches by studying the OT scriptures.

Then we have Paul in Acts 26:
Acts 26:22 KJV
(22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:​

This is in contrast to preaching the mystery that was hidden.

Dearest Whombora! :wave2:

This is how I see this:

During Acts, Paul preached the mystery of Christ. This was a mystery hidden in the scriptures of the prophets. This mystery was that indeed Christ died for our (Israel and Gentiles in the promises) sins. The mystery of Christ is the gospel of Christ.

Post Acts, Paul preached the mystery of the gospel. This was a mystery hidden in God (not the prophets). This mystery was that the gospel included Gentiles who were not in the promises made to Abraham. The mystery of the gospel is the gospel of the grace of God.

The twain formed the one new man.
 

Tambora

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Dearest Whombora! :wave2:

This is how I see this:

During Acts, Paul preached the mystery of Christ. This was a mystery hidden in the scriptures of the prophets. This mystery was that indeed Christ died for our (Israel and Gentiles in the promises) sins. The mystery of Christ is the gospel of Christ.

Post Acts, Paul preached the mystery of the gospel. This was a mystery hidden in God (not the prophets). This mystery was that the gospel included Gentiles who were not in the promises made to Abraham. The mystery of the gospel is the gospel of the grace of God.

The twain formed the one new man.
Thanks STP.
Always a pleasure studying with you.

The question that would naturally arise is:
Were there two separate mysteries that Paul preached?
*a Kingdom gospel that could be found by searching the OT​
*a Body gospel that could not be found by searching the OT​

If so, then both Acts 17 and Acts 26 cannot be the Body gospel being preached.
For in Acts 17 it is stated that all he preached can be verified by the OT. So that cannot be the Body gospel that was kept secret.
And in Acts 26 it is stated that he "continued to this day" preaching none other than what Moses and the prophets foretold.
Again, that cannot be the Body gospel that was kept secret.


Right?
 

SaulToPaul 2

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So that cannot be the Body gospel that was kept secret.
And in Acts 26 it is stated that he "continued to this day" preaching none other than what Moses and the prophets foretold.
Again, that cannot be the Body gospel that was kept secret
.


Right?

He did preach what Moses said would come, according to the mystery of Christ. :)

So, yes, Paul preached several mysteries. During Acts, he could use the OT to prove that what he was preaching wasn't against the prophets. This was important since he preached to Jews and Greeks in the synagogues, predominantly.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
To clarify, both of these are "body" gospels.

1. Mystery of Christ- during Acts- hidden in the scriptures- Gospel of Christ
2. Mystery of the gospel- post Acts, hidden in God- Gospel of Grace of God

It is just that the audience and reach is expanded with Paul's second sending to "far hence" Gentiles.
 

Tambora

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Rolling along nicely!

To clarify, both of these are "body" gospels.

1. Mystery of Christ- during Acts- hidden in the scriptures- Gospel of Christ
2. Mystery of the gospel- post Acts, hidden in God- Gospel of Grace of God
Just to make it clear for our listening audience ......
Could both 1. & 2. be found in the OT?

It is just that the audience and reach is expanded with Paul's second sending to "far hence" Gentiles.
So, it's the exact same message that is continually preached by Paul, but he took it first to the Jews?



BTW, some of these questions are coming from my son (LoneStar).
He has not yet been approved to post in this forum, and this is a subject he is most interested in.
He will check again when he gets off work to see if he can post in here yet. Says he put in his join request a few days ago.
I would like him to see others responses, and not just depend on me for answers.
So as soon as he can post in here, I'm going to be silent for a time in this thread and let him take over the conversation.

Sometimes one can state the same thing, but in a different way, that is more comprehensible to some.
So thanks, STP, for taking the time to step in!
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Tam :wave2:

It helps me to think of it this way. The parts that make up the gospel of Christ, 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV) can be found scattered throughout the scriptures of the prophets. And, the fact that Jews and some Gentiles would be blessed with hearing it was in the prophets. But, not until it was revealed to Paul was it put together into a unit. Then, Paul could look back into the OT and show his hearers that it was promised to them. So, the gospel of Christ is the mystery of Christ, and it's parts and audience could be found in the OT.

Now onto the gospel of the grace of God which is the mystery of the gospel. It was not hidden in the OT, but rather hidden in God. The parts of this gospel are the same, but the audience includes Gentiles who could not look back into the OT and see their salvation. It includes Gentiles who were the cursed of Gen 12:1-3 (KJV).

So, during Acts you have Jews and Gentiles that Paul could use the OT to reach and save. Post Acts, you have Gentiles that were reached and saved in spite of what the OT said about them. These two groups are saved into the same Body and formed the one new man.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
:BRAVO: Great stuff, Brother SaulToPaul! Thank you for making all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery! :BRAVO:
 

Danoh

New member
Bitten By the Mid-Acts Love Bug :)

Bitten By the Mid-Acts Love Bug :)

Following up with the fact that Paul was not teaching the mystery to the Bereans in Acts 17:11, due to the fact that Paul says they can find what he teaches by studying the OT scriptures.

Then we have Paul in Acts 26:
Acts 26:22 KJV
(22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:​

This is in contrast to preaching the mystery that was hidden.

I love exploring these differences between us who are Mid-Acts/Acts 9.

Just love it!

Even more so when we explore how we arrived at our conclusions and their resulting assertions!

The way I learned how to study these issues out, does not lead me to your above quoted assertion, Tambora.

What I see in your how is that you applied deduction instead of induction first.

In fact, that is exactly what our opposition consistently does; which is why they believe what they are seeing is correct; that we're the one's off our rocker.

Deduction too soon, for example, had kept J.C. O'Hair stuck for some time between the rock and the hard place that are Acts 2 and Acts 28.

He'd come to see that Acts 2 was too soon in one's deductions as to the Body's beginning, but at the same time, and for a time, he had been unsure, if Acts 28 was too late as to said beginning.

It was not until he stopped comparing the passages towards deducing from them a conclusion he could live with, and instead began to apply much a more inductive approach to his studies prior to attempting to deduce a conclusion that he was at last able to see a Mid-Acts beginning for the Body.

And that moment - that is our moment too.

Just over two hundred years before O'Hair, what's his name's pet peeve, John Nelson Darby's writings indicate something similar - that it was only after all the information he had gathered [Induction] and then just as exhaustively studied out as to some common feature within all that information, some general rule of thumb he might then be able to rely on as a guide to his deductions, that the distinction between Israel and the Body practically leaped off the pages of Scripture at him.

While some three hundred years before that, Martin Luther related a same kind of a moment; in which that distinction that leaped up out of the Scripture at him exploded into the raging fire that had been that brief moment of brightness that had so lit up all Europe with its glorious light - "the just shall live BY FAITH!"

I just love that - that's us - that's that same moment that each of us within Mid-Acts have also experienced; that all those naysayers out there have not; for their disinterest in the Book they assert is Sola Scriptura.

In this I have no doubt that we have not been alone out of all those billions of people that have come and gone since our beloved Apostle penned his last known words - The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen - 2 Timothy 4:22.

That moment in those men is our actual history all the way back to when Saul of Tarsus was forced to note his own first distinction - note, sis - note our actual history that only we can understand between us throughout the world wherever Mid-Acts is rejoiced in, for that wondrous first time in common to each and every one of us:

Paul's Acts 9 Distinction - Acts 26

8. Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
9. I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10. Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11. And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

Here it comes, Saul, that moment we share with you!

12. Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13. At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

That's right brother, we shut up our notions, and we ask!

15. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the
which I will appear unto thee;
17. Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Hunh - say what - BUT - nevertheless, what was his/our attitude - why are we in the pickle we are in with everyone?

19. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20. But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

And boy oh boy does that cause tribulation to rejoice in!

21. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

That trouble-maker, how dare he be our pattern as to following the Living Word on these things, lol.

Anyway, that's my heart. That's - Our - heart.

In the next segment I'll return to the subject I pulled a Richard Jordan on - went off after a rabbit on, in my excitement over the mutual faith both of you and me, lol
 
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