For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

[Jerry Shugart]

Post Acts, Paul preached the mystery of the gospel. This was a mystery hidden in God (not the prophets). This mystery was that the gospel included Gentiles who were not in the promises made to Abraham. The mystery of the gospel is the gospel of the grace of God.

So according to your ideas, the Apostle Paul did not preach the gospel of grace during the Acts period. If that is true then how do you explain the fact that Paul himself says in the book of Acts that he did preach the gospel of grace?:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24).​

The epistle to the Romans was written during the Acts period and it is clear to anyone with an open mind that Paul was indeed preaching the gospel of grace in that epistle.

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Just over two hundred years before O'Hair, what's his name's pet peeve, John Nelson Darby's writings indicate something similar - that it was only after all the information he had gathered [Induction] and then just as exhaustively studied out as to some common feature within all that information, some general rule of thumb he might then be able to rely on as a guide to his deductions, that the distinction between Israel and the Body practically leaped off the pages of Scripture at him.

John Nelson Darby said the following about the beginning of the present dispensation:

"Reference to the second chapter of Galatians will confirm and establish the point historically as to the present dispensation, where not only is the fact stated of Paul having the ministry of the Gentiles, as Peter of the circumcision; but it was actually agreed on their conference, consequent upon the grace given, that Paul and Barnabas should go to the uncircumcision; and James, and Cephas, and John should go to the circumcision. And so far was the apostle's mind under Judaizing influence, that it required a positive fresh revelation to induce him to go into company with a Gentile at all, and even after this he would not eat when certain came from James. In fact the Gentile dispensation, as a distinct thing, took its rise on the death of Stephen, the witness that the Jews resisted the Holy Ghost: as their fathers did, so did they" (Darby, The Apostasy of the Successive Dispensations).​

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/the...ritings-of-j-n-darby-ecclesiastical-1/la62195

This would indicate that Darby was a Mid-Acts dispensationalist. Sir Robert Anderson, who preached alongside Darby, is considered by many as the the father of systemized Mid Acts dispensationalism, did in fact speak of a dispensation beginning during the Mid Acts period of time:

"Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative belong to a different age. And such is in fact the case. A new dispensation had begun..." (Anderson, The Silence of God; Grand Rapids: The Silence of God, 1978, p.49).​

 

[Danoh]

So according to your ideas, the Apostle Paul did not preach the gospel of grace during the Acts period. If that is true then how do you explain the fact that Paul himself says in the book of Acts that he did preach the gospel of grace?:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24).​

The epistle to the Romans was written during the Acts period and it is clear to anyone with an open mind that Paul was indeed preaching the gospel of grace in that epistle.

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Their basic premise is off; because the information they are basing it on, is INCOMPLETE.

Paul's is a Mystery concerning the Cross work of Christ as to its redemption of men into the Body towards this Body's equally Mystery, purpose.

It is NOT Israel's redemption in the Cross. Paul was un-save-able under that aspect.

Israel's is the Blood as to THEIR New Covenant that said Blood would make possible; the subject of Prophecy - of their PROPHESIED Grace.

In this, information concerning the Blood is THEIR establishment truth in reverse, as they already knew the PURPOSE of their calling.

Theirs was but to believe Christ was/is their PROPHESIED Messiah, NOT that He died for their sins, as that is built into THEIR requirement - believe that He is/was the Christ.

Their Epistles THEN establish them in THEIR understanding of the Blood.

But the Blood itself concerns a Two-Fold Purpose - both aspects of which the Blood would make possible.

There is Israel's, and Gentile redemption under that nation, AS PROPHESIED.

And there is the Mystery's Redemption of Jew and Gentile - not of a nation corporately, nor of nations through Israel's overflow - but of individual Jew and Gentile [independent of Israel's Prophesied redemption] this side of Israel's Prophesied fall and Prophesied temporary setting aside.

The Wrath was headed AS PROPHESIED, BUT then God revealed "a Mystery..."

In this, the mystery in Romans 11:25 is that during Israel's Prophesied, temporary fall, God would do an UNPROPHESIED work among, and directly IN the Gentiles, INDEPENDENT OF that Prophesied aspect of His Two-Fold Purpose among the Gentiles THROUGH Israel's overflow.

In short, a work according to a Mystery.

Paul had wanted to share this with the Corinthians, for example, but they were caught up in "that's not for us" - 1 Cor. 1-3.

Fact is, there is a point in Acts 9 where Paul is saved, goes off to Arabia, learns the Mystery, then returns, there in Acts 9, to preach Christ in His Two-Fold aspect.

We know this, both from his additional info in Galatians 1 as to what happened in Acts 9, as well as from his constant reminder in Romans thru Philemon regarding all he had preached unto them during Acts.

All aspects of the Mystery are found throughout his thirteen epistles - including those he wrote during Acts.

By the time Paul reaches Romans 9, he has covered the basic frame of reference and or general rule of thumb that many of the very basics of both "the gospel of the Grace of God," and its Mystery "new creature" are all about.

I could not see this either. Til I saw the further distinction - that the distinction is NOT between Law and Grace, BUT between Israel's Prophesied Grace "UNDER the Law...BY faith" and the Body's Mystery Grace 'WITHOUT the Law...through faith," Romans 3's summarized in verse. 3:30:

"Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

The same Two-Fold thought the Apostle Paul relates to those he had taught it to VERY early in his ministry -Galatians 6:

15. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Both are found "in Christ Jesus" - a redemptive term that is, nevertheless, different, Dispensationally.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Their basic premise is off; because the information they are basing it on, is INCOMPLETE.

What is INCOMPLETE is your response to what I wrote. Are you asserting that Paul did not preach the gospel of grace during the Acts period?

After all, my answer was in response to what SaultoPaul said here:

Post Acts, Paul preached the mystery of the gospel. This was a mystery hidden in God (not the prophets). This mystery was that the gospel included Gentiles who were not in the promises made to Abraham. The mystery of the gospel is the gospel of the grace of God.

If you want to quote me then address what I actually said. Thanks!

 

[Danoh]

What is INCOMPLETE is your response to what I wrote. Are you asserting that Paul did not preach the gospel of grace during the Acts period?

After all, my answer was in response to what SaultoPaul said here:



If you want to quote me then address what I actually said. Thanks!

Lol, I said "their basic premise," not yours - as to this...

Here, in plain English is my understanding - Paul knew the Mystery of Romans thru Philemon - all of it - in Acts 9 - that his "gospel of the Grace of God" was based on.

In this, Greek or no Greek, Romans 11:26's "scripture's of the
prophets" is a reference to Paul's writings in the sense of the word "prophet" is used in Scripture - God's spokesperson.

Exodus 7, for example:

1. And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
2. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

1 Corinthians 13:

2. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

2 Samuel 2:

1. And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There
were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.

7. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8. And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto
thee such and such things.

1 Corinthians 14:

29. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

36. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Who wrote the following "Scripture of a prophet" as a prophet of God prophesying/speaking it in the Spirit's stead-

Ephesians 1:

1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Timothy 4:

1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Lol, I said "their basic premise," not yours

Why do you continue to change the subject?

I was addressing what SaultoPaul said here:

Post Acts, Paul preached the mystery of the gospel. This was a mystery hidden in God (not the prophets). This mystery was that the gospel included Gentiles who were not in the promises made to Abraham. The mystery of the gospel is the gospel of the grace of God.

According to him the gospel of grace was not preached intil after the Acts time period was over. But I gave proof that it was preached in the epistle to the Romans and that epistle was written during the Acts period.

Do you agree with him or with me?

 

[patrick jane]

Why do you continue to change the subject?

I was addressing what SaultoPaul said here:



According to him the gospel of grace was not preached intil after the Acts time perio A.D.d was over. But I gave proof that it was preached in the epistle to the Romans and that epistle was written during the Acts period.

Do you agree with him or with me?

just casually observing here, but i don't think STP necessarily said Paul didn't preach the gospel of Grace in Acts. imo, you jumped to that conclusion and now you're pumping your chest by 'giving proof' in Romans ? then asking folks to choose who to agree with. IMO, Paul began his gospel after Damascus - The Acts 9:15 KJV -

as a sidebar, Galatians was written from Antioch in approximately 49 A.D., prior to the Jerusalem council. Acts was not written by Paul, but Luke - between 63-70 A.D, - Romans 57 A.D. -



Galatians 1:1 KJV - Galatians 1:6 KJV - Galatians 1:7 KJV -


Galatians 1:8-9 KJV -


Galatians 1:16 KJV -

Galatians 1:17 KJV -

Galatians 1:18-19 KJV -

Galatians 2:2 KJV

Galatians 2:7-8 KJV -

i'm confident that STP agrees with the apostle Paul - atrol:

 

[Tambora]

But the Blood itself concerns a Two-Fold Purpose - both aspects of which the Blood would make possible.

There is Israel's, and Gentile redemption under that nation, AS PROPHESIED.

And there is the Mystery's Redemption of Jew and Gentile - not of a nation corporately, nor of nations through Israel's overflow - but of individual Jew and Gentile [independent of Israel's Prophesied redemption] this side of Israel's Prophesied fall and Prophesied temporary setting aside.

The Wrath was headed AS PROPHESIED, BUT then God revealed "a Mystery..."

In this, the mystery in Romans 11:25 is that during Israel's Prophesied, temporary fall, God would do an UNPROPHESIED work among, and directly IN the Gentiles, INDEPENDENT OF that Prophesied aspect of His Two-Fold Purpose among the Gentiles THROUGH Israel's overflow.

In short, a work according to a Mystery.

That's how I view it as well.

According to prophesy, Gentiles could join with the exalted nation of Israel.
According to the mystery, Gentiles and Jews alike could join the BOC through the fall of Israel.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

just casually observing here, but i don't think STP necessarily said Paul didn't preach the gospel of Grace in Acts.

Here is what he said:

Post Acts, Paul preached the mystery of the gospel. This was a mystery hidden in God (not the prophets). This mystery was that the gospel included Gentiles who were not in the promises made to Abraham. The mystery of the gospel is the gospel of the grace of God.

Here STP said that "post Acts" Paul preached the mystery of the gospel and that gospel is the gospel of grace.

If STP believes that Paul preached the gospel of grace during the Acts period then it would make no sense for him to say that "post Acts" Paul preached the gospel of grace.

 

[steko]

That's how I view it as well.

According to prophesy, Gentiles could join with the exalted nation of Israel.
According to the mystery, Gentiles and Jews alike could join the BOC through the fall of Israel.

Yep! Me, too!

 

[glorydaz]

That's how I view it as well.

According to prophesy, Gentiles could join with the exalted nation of Israel.
According to the mystery, Gentiles and Jews alike could join the BOC through the fall of Israel.

Do you think that explains what is being said here?

Acts 15

7-8 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9-10 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11-12 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.​

 

[glorydaz]

Tam :wave2:

It helps me to think of it this way. The parts that make up the gospel of Christ, 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV) can be found scattered throughout the scriptures of the prophets. And, the fact that Jews and some Gentiles would be blessed with hearing it was in the prophets. But, not until it was revealed to Paul was it put together into a unit. Then, Paul could look back into the OT and show his hearers that it was promised to them. So, the gospel of Christ is the mystery of Christ, and it's parts and audience could be found in the OT.

Now onto the gospel of the grace of God which is the mystery of the gospel. It was not hidden in the OT, but rather hidden in God. The parts of this gospel are the same, but the audience includes Gentiles who could not look back into the OT and see their salvation. It includes Gentiles who were the cursed of Gen 12:1-3 (KJV).

So, during Acts you have Jews and Gentiles that Paul could use the OT to reach and save. Post Acts, you have Gentiles that were reached and saved in spite of what the OT said about them. These two groups are saved into the same Body and formed the one new man.

Wow, I've never seen it so clearly presented. :first:

 

[Ktoyou]

If STP believes that Paul preached the gospel of grace during the Acts period then it would make no sense for him to say that "post Acts" Paul preached the gospel of grace.

\I do not understand what you mean? Paul preached the Gospel of Grace from mid-acts on. What is 'post acts'?

 

[patrick jane]

Tam :wave2:

It helps me to think of it this way. The parts that make up the gospel of Christ, 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV) can be found scattered throughout the scriptures of the prophets. And, the fact that Jews and some Gentiles would be blessed with hearing it was in the prophets. But, not until it was revealed to Paul was it put together into a unit. Then, Paul could look back into the OT and show his hearers that it was promised to them. So, the gospel of Christ is the mystery of Christ, and it's parts and audience could be found in the OT.

Now onto the gospel of the grace of God which is the mystery of the gospel. It was not hidden in the OT, but rather hidden in God. The parts of this gospel are the same, but the audience includes Gentiles who could not look back into the OT and see their salvation. It includes Gentiles who were the cursed of Gen 12:1-3 (KJV).

So, during Acts you have Jews and Gentiles that Paul could use the OT to reach and save. Post Acts, you have Gentiles that were reached and saved in spite of what the OT said about them. These two groups are saved into the same Body and formed the one new man.[/QUOTE

Hey ! - I was gonna say that . . i mean, that's what i meant to say. just kiddin' - awesome post brother, concise - atrol:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

\I do not understand what you mean? Paul preached the Gospel of Grace from mid-acts on. What is 'post acts'?

Yes, Paul did in fact preach the gospel of grace from Mid-Acts on.

It was STP who said that Paul preached that gospel post Acts (after Acts).

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, Paul did in fact preach the gospel of grace from Mid-Acts on.

It was STP who said that Paul preached that gospel post Acts (after Acts).

So you're claiming Paul did NOT preach the gospel of grace post Acts (after Acts)? Is that correct? That's why you're beating this particular horse?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you're claiming Paul did NOT preach the gospel of grace post Acts (after Acts)? Is that correct?

No, that is not what I am claiming. In fact, I just said the following:

Yes, Paul did in fact preach the gospel of grace from Mid-Acts on.​

From the beginning I was correcting STP when he said that Paul preached the gospel of grace Post Acts.

You really need to look at what was previously said on this thread because otherwise you will just confuse the issues under discussion.

 

[glorydaz]

No, that is not what I am claiming. In fact, I just said the following:

Yes, Paul did in fact preach the gospel of grace from Mid-Acts on.​

From the beginning I was correcting STP when he said that Paul preached the gospel of grace Post Acts.

You really need to look at what was previously said on this thread because otherwise you will just confuse the issues under discussion.

You really need to look at what you're saying he said and then you may see that you are, in fact, claiming what I said you were.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You really need to look at what you're saying he said and then you may see that you are, in fact, claiming what I said you were.

You have a problem understanding the most simple things. I said that Paul preached the gospel of grace from Mid-Acts on.

I did not say that Paul preached the gospel of grace from Mid-Acts until the end of Acts.

 

[glorydaz]

You have a problem understanding the most simple things. I said that Paul preached the gospel of grace from Mid-Acts on.

I did not say that Paul preached the gospel of grace from Mid-Acts until the end of Acts.

I thought what STP said was very simple, but you managed to twist it up pretty good. So who has the problem? :chuckle: