For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

[Jerry Shugart]

But what about eph 2:12? Paul said we (Gentiles) were once alienated from the covenants buy now we aren't?

Let us look at the verse and the one which follows:

"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ" (Eph.2:12-13).

In past times those outside of Israel were "far off" due to the fact that they did not particilate in the covenants which brought the Israelites "near" to God. But now Gentiles are "made nigh" by the flood of Christ and that happen by faith alone. Paul says that the blessing is "in Christ Jesus" and that is referring to the Body of Christ.

We are identified or baptized into the Lord Jesus' death when we are baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13):

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Ro.6:3-4).

All of this happens when a person believes the gospel and all this is made possible by the blood of Christ.

How do the covenants to Abraham come into play?

We receive the promise of the Abrahamaic covenant by being in Christ, in the Body of Christ:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ" (Gal.3:16).

We can also see that the promise comes to Gentiles through Jesus Christ and the blessing is received by faith:

"That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith" (Gal.3:14).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus spoke of divine righteousness often. So what. He also told Israel to do all that the pharisee says to do and observe, and to endure to the end or they will not be saved.

So if you are right then no one would be saved until they endured to the end, and that would not happen until the end of a faithful life. But how do you explain the fact that the Lord Jesus told a Jewish woman that she was already saved?:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven...And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

We have already seen that the Lord Jesus told the Jews that whosoever believed possessed eternal life. And here is what is said about those who believe and possess eternal life:

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:15-16).

And just because a person is keeping the law does not mean that their salvation is based on works. Peter made it plain that the Jew's salvation was based on grace and if it is of grace then it is not of works:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).

 

[chatmaggot]

:shocked: I think I need a book. A big one, with small words.

Bob Enyart's The Plot is pretty big. And the words are quite small too!

 

[heir]

:shocked: I think I need a book. A big one, with small words. I am starting to wonder if I really want to go down this rabbit hole.

You already have the only book you need if you have a King James Bible. If you want to understand something Paul wanted to make all men see, the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, take the time. You just might find out where exactly you fit in to God's plan.

Ephesians 3:8-12 KJV Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

 

[Nick M]

Bump for McGyver.

Explain Romans 11:11. What makes Israel jealous, and why would it do so.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Explain Romans 11:11. What makes Israel jealous, and why would it do so.

According to prophecy the Gentiles were to be brought into the knowledge of God by the agency of the nation of Israel:

"I will make an everlasting covenant with them. And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed" (Isa.61:8-9).

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).

However, due to the unbelief on national Israel she was temporarily set aside as God's agent to bring in the Gentiles and was replaced by Paul. That explains the following verse:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:11-12).

 

[Nick M]

You didn't answer the question, neither did guyver. Why would grace make Israel jealous? There are two reasons.

1. They must keep the law while Gentiles do not
2. Gentiles had to bless Israel to approach God, and were not out of the loop (Acts 10)

There is no reason they would otherwise be jealous. Just like a parent buying a new car for a child, and the other child gets an old used car. One child would be jealous.

So if you are right then no one would be saved until they endured to the end, and that would not happen until the end of a faithful life. But how do you explain the fact that the Lord Jesus told a Jewish woman that she was already saved?

God answered that one through Paul in Romans. He has mercy on whom he has mercy. He gave it to David, as everybody knows. And took it from Saul his rival. That has nothing to do with Israel as a nation, who must keep the law and endure tribulation. And doing it still won't save them, and I never said it would. But if they do not keep it, he will not wash them clean. As a nation, for their earthly inheritance.

You just discount 95% of what Jesus said for one verse that you don't understand. He who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You didn't answer the question, neither did guyver. Why would grace make Israel jealous?

The verse says nothing about grace making Israel jealous:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:11-12).

According to prophecy it is to be the nation of Israel who will be God's agent to bring the Gentiles the knowledge of God and all the blessings which come through that knowledge. They had been temporarily set aside of this agency and Paul was appointed in their place.

Therefore they would see Paul bringing the Gentiles many blessings by doing the job they should have been doing and that would naturally lead to jealousy.

There is no reason they would otherwise be jealous. Just like a parent buying a new car for a child, and the other child gets an old used car. One child would be jealous.

Why would anyone be jealous in regard to beinmg saved by grace, especially since both the Jews and the Gentiles were saved by grace? Peter made this fact plain, saying:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).

You just discount 95% of what Jesus said for one verse that you don't understand. He who endures to the end shall be saved.

By the context we can see that the reference to "salvation" is in regard "deliverance" from persecution:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake...But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt.24:9,13).

This is speaking about deliverance from a "physical" death. Those who endure to the end of the great tribulation will be delivered from "physical" death:

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem...And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (Zech.12:8-9).

The Lord Jesus Himself told the Jews that those who believe will not be judged and already possess eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

Those Jews who believed already possessed eternal life and here is what is said about them:

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:15-16).

 

[Nick M]

The verse says nothing about grace making Israel jealous:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:11-12).

I guess I have nothing else to cover with you, Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I guess I have nothing else to cover with you, Jerry.

Of course you enlarge certain words but at the same time you fail to address the fact that I never said that Israel would not be provoked to jealousy. Instead I was answering what you said here:

Why would grace make Israel jealous?

Here is my answer to that and instead of actually answering what I said you made it seem as if I was saying that Israel would not be provoked to jealousy:

"The verse says nothing about grace making Israel jealous:"

You certainly said nothing that proves that the Jews were not saved by grace and you just IGNORED what Peter said:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).

You also said nothing about what I said here:

By the context we can see that the reference to "salvation" is in regard "deliverance" from persecution:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake...But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt.24:9,13).

This is speaking about deliverance from a "physical" death. Those who endure to the end of the great tribulation will be delivered from "physical" death:

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem...And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (Zech.12:8-9).

The Lord Jesus Himself told the Jews that those who believe will not be judged and already possess eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

Those Jews who believed already possessed eternal life and here is what is said about them:

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:15-16).

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Please respect the opening posts request....

GO AWAY Let me start by asking that troublemakers and opposers who are already convinced of themselves please refrain from posting in this thread. I would appreciate it if people like godrulz, andyc, cistercian, and others with similar agendas stay away. I'll respectfully ask that the moderator(s) delete any posts by these people, as well as others that inappropriately challenge others and/or that simply want to oppose for the sake of opposing. godrulz et al, if you post I'll ignore it but report it, asking it to be deleted. Of course, I can't make forum rules, so I'm only expressing my desire.

If you are coming in this thread to cause trouble spare yourself the effort and don't.

 

[chickenman]

Thank you! :up:

 

[steko]

I find it curious that Matthew, Mark and Luke speak of the New Covenant/Testament in Jesus' blood, but John doesn't.

Do you have any comment on this, Randy?

 

[Nick M]

I find it curious that Matthew, Mark and Luke speak of the New Covenant/Testament in Jesus' blood, but John doesn't.

Do you have any comment on this, Randy?

Their sin as a nation would be blotted out.

 

[steko]

Their sin as a nation would be blotted out.

Yeah....I understand that and agree.

 

[Ktoyou]

Good advive here:

Please respect the opening posts request....

GO AWAY Let me start by asking that troublemakers and opposers who are already convinced of themselves please refrain from posting in this thread. I would appreciate it if people like godrulz, andyc, cistercian, and others with similar agendas stay away. I'll respectfully ask that the moderator(s) delete any posts by these people, as well as others that inappropriately challenge others and/or that simply want to oppose for the sake of opposing. godrulz et al, if you post I'll ignore it but report it, asking it to be deleted. Of course, I can't make forum rules, so I'm only expressing my desire.

If you are coming in this thread to cause trouble spare yourself the effort and don't.

This is a very good thread! Let''s keep it so.

 

[chickenman]

I find it curious that Matthew, Mark and Luke speak of the New Covenant/Testament in Jesus' blood, but John doesn't.

Do you have any comment on this, Randy?

Hi, steko.

Good question. I've never thought about it. Do you have any thoughts on it?

RA

 

[Pam Baldwin]

Originally Posted by steko
I find it curious that Matthew, Mark and Luke speak of the New Covenant/Testament in Jesus' blood, but John doesn't.

Do you have any comment on this, Randy?

Hi, steko.

Good question. I've never thought about it. Do you have any thoughts on it?

RA

Yes, good question steko. Never noticed that.

I did notice that John's Gospel is the only one in which the "Last Supper" is not talked about. And that in the other gospels' accounts of the Last Supper, it is where the (new) testament is mentioned, but only within the context of the Last Supper. Are there any other places it is mentioned in Matt, Mark or Luke?

 

[Nick M]

Yeah....I understand that and agree.

Matthew, Mark, and Luke are very much centered on Israel. But they also have a different angle to some degree. John is the furthest from it. Read that in commentary, so rulz should have to agree.

One of Lee Strobel's books. He wasn't anywhere near "MAD" in his book, it was just observed how much the 3 are alike, but with a little different angle. John goes into Isaiah 9, and how the messiah is called God, everlasting Father and all that, if he is from David. I think that is all there is to it.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Read that in commentary, so rulz should have to agree.

:chuckle:


Sorry, Randy.


Good stuff.