For Keypurr

[Elia]

Did Jacob wrestle with God?

Bs"d

No, he did not.

It is absurd to think that God couldn't conquer Jacob.

Jacob wrestled with an angel.

The word used in the text is "elohiem", which can mean "God", but it can also mean "idol", "judge", "mighty man" or "leader".

 

[keypurr]

So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:30 NKJV)
​

Did Jacob wrestle with God?

No, I believe Christ when he said no man has seen God. So Jacob might have been misinformed by the agent he wrestled with.

 

[jamie]

No, I believe Christ when he said no man has seen God. So Jacob might have been misinformed by the agent he wrestled with.

And the Holy Spirit might have been misinformed when he inspired Moses, right?

Did Moses speak with God face to face?

So the LORD (YHVH) spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. (Exodus 33:11 NKJV)​

 

[intojoy]

For keyper?
You're not a keeper but a caper headed for a hell bagel

 

[keypurr]

Bs"d

I totally discarded the box I'm in. I shredded it.

I'm raised as a trinitarian Christian in a Christian family.

Then I saw the light.

First thing to go was the trinity, that's a no-brainer.

Then I realised that the Christian messiah hadn't fulfilled the messianic prophecies, and out he went.

Please take note of the fact that I asked for some proof that your messiah was the messiah, and that nor you, nor anybody else, can give me any.

What else is there to talk about?


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

I guess then I have misjudged you. But do not put yourself in another box.

 

[keypurr]

Bs"d

Look here my friend and your eyes will be opened:

Psalm 110:1; "The Lord says to my lord: Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."

This Psalm is most likely written by an officer in David's army. It says here; The Lord, (in Hebrew Y-H-W-H) says to my lord, (in the sense of master). This is literally translated: Y-H-W-H says to my master: etc. This applies to David, just like the next verse, "The Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your foes." This is what King David did, God made his enemies a footstool to him, and he ruled from Zion (Jerusalem). Verse 5 and 6: "The Lord is at your right hand, He will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses." King David slaughtered many of his enemies, as written in this Psalm, but all these things that were never done by Jesus. Therefore it makes no sense to say that this applies to Jesus and not to king David.

-----Here is the explanation of the great Jewish sage from the Middle Ages, rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, a.k.a. the Ramban:

King David was the composer who wrote the Psalms with the aid of the holy spirit. He composed them for the purpose of having them sung before the altar of God. He himself did not sing them, nor was he permitted to do so, for that function was forbidden to him by law of the Torah. (Deuteronomy 18:6-7) Insted, he gave the Psalms to the Levites, so that they would sing them. This is clearly written in the book of I Chronicles 16:7 Therefore, King David perforce expressed the psalm in the language appropriate for utterance by the Levites. Thus, if King David had said; "The Eternal said to me", the levites repeating these words would be uttering falsehood. Instead, it is proper for the Levite to say in the Temple: "The Eternal saith unto my lord: (that is to King David) Sit thou at My right hand." The purport of the term 'sitting' is to state that the Creator, blessed be He, will protect him during his lifetime and that He will save him and cause him to prevail over his enemies. So it was, for he lifted up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time. This is the right hand of God. It is also written of David: "And Your right hand has holden me up." Psalm 18:36. It is similarly written: "The right hand of the Almighty does valiantly. The right hand of the Eternal is exalted." Psalm 118:15 Regarding Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, it is written: "He caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses." Isaiah 63:12 And Moses said at the fall of pharaoh: "Thy right hand, O Eternal, dashes the enemy in pieces." Exodus 15:6


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

I disagree with rabbi Moshe ben Nachman.

 

[Elia]

I guess then I have misjudged you. But do not put yourself in another box.

Bs"d

The point is, nobody here can bring me any proof that he really was the messiah.

Not you, not anybody else.

He didn't even come close.

He didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies. On top of that, his claim that he must be honoured like God has two billion Christians worshipping him, which is idolatry.

And then the way in which the NT tries to proof he is the messiah, that is a bad joke. For examples see here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/nt-prophecies

It is so obvious that it is a set up, that you wonder why there are people who keep on believing in it.

And that is why I discarded him as the messiah.

I only serve the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

And the Holy Spirit might have been misinformed when he inspired Moses, right?

Did Moses speak with God face to face?

So the LORD (YHVH) spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. (Exodus 33:11 NKJV)​

Bs'd

So the expression "face to face" means something else than you thought.

God spoke face to face with all Israel: And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. 2 Y-H-W-H our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 Y-H-W-H did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive. 4 Y-H-W-H talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire. I stood between Y-H-W-H and you at that time, to declare to you the word of Y-H-W-H; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up the mountain.
So God spoke to Israel face to face, but Moses was in between, and: "You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire."

And they didn't see any form or shape: "You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire."
Deut 4:15

So "face to face" is a metaphor, not to be taken literal, because, of course, God not being flesh and blood, has no face.

So don't lead yourself astray by interpreting an expression the wrong way.

And like I said above, the word "elohiem", used for the angel with whom Jacob wrestled, is also used for judges, leaders, mighty men; it just does not always mean "God".

Also Moses is called an "elohiem" in Ex 4:16 and 7:1, so forget about Jacob fighting with God, just because your faulty translation says so.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

I disagree with rabbi Moshe ben Nachman.

Bs"d

Still it is a fact that (some) of the Psalms were written to be sung in the Temple.

And it is a fact that therefore they had to be written in the third person, otherwise it would sound wrong when the Levites were singing it in the Temple.

Also, you read too much in it. It simply says: "Y-H-W-H said to my lord: ... " And "my lord", in the Hebrew "adonai", refers obviously to king David.

So no matter how you read it, it is not speaking about God having a god, or anything like that.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

I guess then I have misjudged you. But do not put yourself in another box.

Bs"d

Did it ever occur to you that you are in the box of "He MUST be the messiah, no matter what!"?

 

[jamie]

The point is, nobody here can bring me any proof that he really was the messiah.

Each person must prove to himself or herself what is true. A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.

No one is requiring you to believe Jesus is the King of Israel under the Most High. Believe what you choose to believe and allow others to believe what they choose to believe.

 

[jamie]

So "face to face" is a metaphor, not to be taken literal, because, of course, God not being flesh and blood, has no face.

Does God have a finger?

And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God. (Exodus 31:18 NKJV)

Then the LORD delivered to me two tablets of stone written with the finger of God, and on them were all the words which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly. (Deuteronomy 9:10 NKJV)​

Is the finger of God a Metaphor? Are the two tablets a metaphor? Was the ark of the covenant a metaphor?

God is an interdimensional being. Heaven is not a prison from which God cannot escape.

 

[RBBI]

For keyper?
You're not a keeper but a caper headed for a hell bagel

And I think you're speaking way above your pay grade, and forgetting by the same measure you mete out, the same is measured unto you. Peace

 

[RBBI]

Bs"d

Still it is a fact that (some) of the Psalms were written to be sung in the Temple.

And it is a fact that therefore they had to be written in the third person, otherwise it would sound wrong when the Levites were singing it in the Temple.

Also, you read too much in it. It simply says: "Y-H-W-H said to my lord: ... " And "my lord", in the Hebrew "adonai", refers obviously to king David.

So no matter how you read it, it is not speaking about God having a god, or anything like that.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

It's a very convenient "save" by the Rabbi, but who then was David speaking of when he wrote them? Himself? Then it should have said, "then YHWH said unto ME", but alas, it didn't, because David was prophesying in song. The psalms clearly say, "a psalm of DAVID" at the top, so no need for the Levites to further clarify by changing the wording, because it was not their psalm as was pointed out at the beginning, so they weren't uttering a falsehood.

As for why He didn't fulfill all of the prophesies YET, it should be obvious. Not all was to be fulfilled in His first appearance.

Israel was His son to begin with, but lacking the Spirit, "he" couldn't keep the commandments and do the works of the Spirit, and so became as an Ismael, a work of the flesh. And so another Son was needed, this one endued with the Spirit from on high, who WOULD keep the commandments and statutes and WOULD do the works of the Spirit and not the flesh, because His very nature IS SPIRIT, as the Father is Spirit and every Seed must bear fruit after it's own kind.

If ANY man think he standeth, take care lest he fall. Peace

 

[Elia]

It's a very convenient "save" by the Rabbi, but who then was David speaking of when he wrote them? Himself? Then it should have said, "then YHWH said unto ME",

Bs"d

I repeat:

King David was the composer who wrote the Psalms with the aid of the holy spirit. He composed them for the purpose of having them sung before the altar of God. He himself did not sing them, nor was he permitted to do so, for that function was forbidden to him by law of the Torah. (Deuteronomy 18:6-7) Insted, he gave the Psalms to the Levites, so that they would sing them. This is clearly written in the book of I Chronicles 16:7 Therefore, King David perforce expressed the psalm in the language appropriate for utterance by the Levites. Thus, if King David had said; "The Eternal said to me", the levites repeating these words would be uttering falsehood. Instead, it is proper for the Levite to say in the Temple: "The Eternal saith unto my lord: (that is to King David) Sit thou at My right hand."

but alas, it didn't, because David was prophesying in song. The psalms clearly say, "a psalm of DAVID" at the top,

That it says in your translation. In the Hebrew it says: "A Psalm FOR David".

So it is also possible it is written by somebody else for David.

As for why He didn't fulfill all of the prophesies YET, it should be obvious. Not all was to be fulfilled in His first appearance.

So we agree on the fact that the messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled.

Why believe in a messiah who didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[keypurr]

And the Holy Spirit might have been misinformed when he inspired Moses, right?

Did Moses speak with God face to face?

So the LORD (YHVH) spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. (Exodus 33:11 NKJV)​

Moses was a man, no man has seen God except the son of man who decended from heaven.

Knowing this, you need to see that God used agents, angles to make himself known to man. God is a spirit. So is his son.

 

[keypurr]

Bs"d

The point is, nobody here can bring me any proof that he really was the messiah.

Not you, not anybody else.

He didn't even come close.

He didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies. On top of that, his claim that he must be honoured like God has two billion Christians worshipping him, which is idolatry.

And then the way in which the NT tries to proof he is the messiah, that is a bad joke. For examples see here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/nt-prophecies

It is so obvious that it is a set up, that you wonder why there are people who keep on believing in it.

And that is why I discarded him as the messiah.

I only serve the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

The book of Daniel tells you when he would come friend.
He came right on time.

 

[keypurr]

Bs"d

Still it is a fact that (some) of the Psalms were written to be sung in the Temple.

And it is a fact that therefore they had to be written in the third person, otherwise it would sound wrong when the Levites were singing it in the Temple.

Also, you read too much in it. It simply says: "Y-H-W-H said to my lord: ... " And "my lord", in the Hebrew "adonai", refers obviously to king David.

So no matter how you read it, it is not speaking about God having a god, or anything like that.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

I think adonai refers to the spiritual son, the express image, Christ.

 

[jamie]

Moses was a man, no man has seen God except the son of man who decended from heaven.

Bingo! It was the Son of Man who spoke with Moses and who led Jacob's people out of Egypt.

Paul said, "And all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ"
(1 Corinthians 10:4 NKJV)

Christ is also referred to as YHVH in the Hebrew Bible.

 

[RBBI]

Bs"d

I repeat:

King David was the composer who wrote the Psalms with the aid of the holy spirit. He composed them for the purpose of having them sung before the altar of God. He himself did not sing them, nor was he permitted to do so, for that function was forbidden to him by law of the Torah. (Deuteronomy 18:6-7) Insted, he gave the Psalms to the Levites, so that they would sing them. This is clearly written in the book of I Chronicles 16:7 Therefore, King David perforce expressed the psalm in the language appropriate for utterance by the Levites. Thus, if King David had said; "The Eternal said to me", the levites repeating these words would be uttering falsehood. Instead, it is proper for the Levite to say in the Temple: "The Eternal saith unto my lord: (that is to King David) Sit thou at My right hand."



That it says in your translation. In the Hebrew it says: "A Psalm FOR David".

So it is also possible it is written by somebody else for David.



So we agree on the fact that the messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled.

Why believe in a messiah who didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

That still doesn't change anything. If the Spirit helped, then it was PROPHESIED, and the Spirit wouldn't have a problem with saying the former because the L-rd YHWH DID say unto David's L-rd what was recorded, and David or whoever was simply repeating what was said. When the Spirit came on Saul, he prophesied too.

Which is why Yeshua asked the question He did, pointing out that it was impossible for the flesh man of him to be both David's L-ord and son.

And again, because they were never going to be fulfilled all at once, AND because He is MY Messiah. And you are never going to find Him until you stop looking without and look within. Humble yourself to ask Him yourself to show you if He is the Messiah of Y'srael. If you're ONLY seeking after truth, it shouldn't be a problem for you. Peace