ECT "For He must reign until ..."

[elohiym]

1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

The Lord Jesus Christ is reigning now while His enemies are being put under His feet.

This discussion will be about how the Lord is reigning now.

Those who believe the Lord's reign is future are welcome to debate.

 

[elohiym]

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this."

That was accomplished before the cross.

 

[genuineoriginal]

1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

That begins at His coming 1 Corinthians 15:23

The Lord Jesus Christ is reigning now while His enemies are being put under His feet.

This discussion will be about how the Lord is reigning now.

Jesus has gone away to receive His kingdom.

Luke 19:12-15 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.​

When He receives His kingdom, He will return.

Those who believe the Lord's reign is future are welcome to debate.

Jesus receives the Kingdom when the seventh angel in Revelation sounds the trumpet.

Revelation 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.​

 

[Danoh]

Your post #3 GO, is a Dispensational Perspective.

While, your noting a distinction between your view on that and elohyim's IS a 2 Tim. 2:15 type of rightly dividing things or laying them out aright, in light of the word of truth.

"Cut" your assertion about 2 Tim. 2:15 how you might, you yourself cannot but end up having to "cut" things "straight," at times.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Your post #3 GO, is a Dispensational Perspective.

No, it is not.

I am a Historicist, not a Dispensationalist.

While, your noting a distinction between your view on that and elohyim's IS a 2 Tim. 2:15 type of rightly dividing things or laying them out aright, in light of the word of truth.

"Cut" your assertion about 2 Tim. 2:15 how you might, you yourself cannot but end up having to "cut" things "straight," at times.

I am "accurately handling the word of truth" (NASB), not cutting it up.

 

[elohiym]

1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

That begins at His coming 1 Corinthians 15:23

1 Corinthians 15:24 "then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.…

If he hands over the kingdom to the Father per verse 24, he must be reining until the end, not after the end.

Jesus has gone away to receive His kingdom.

Jesus received His kingdom and sits on the throne of David. He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, right?

"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it."

Forcing their way into an existing, spiritually present kingdom of God under the monarchy of Christ or Lord. He is presently the King of Kings, not will be. When His kingdom was established BEFORE the cross, it was established without end.

 

[elohiym]

Your post #3 GO, is a Dispensational Perspective.

Luke 16:16 is the true dispensational perspective.

 

[Danoh]

Luke 16:16 is the true dispensational perspective.

I sincerely doubt you and I understand that passage in the same sense.

 

[elohiym]

I sincerely doubt you and I understand that passage in the same sense.

I'm certain we don't.

 

[Danoh]

I'm certain we don't.

Lol - that's because Star Trek Voyager's Captain Janeway was my mom.

You'll recall she was the Captain who at last dusted the seemingly unbeatable Borg and good!

 

[elohiym]

Lol - that's because Star Trek Voyager's Captain Janeway was my mom.

My favorite captain. How dare you! I should report your post to the moderators but I don't believe they are geeky enough to do anything about it.

 

[Danoh]

My favorite captain. How dare you! I should report your post to the moderators but I don't believe they are geeky enough to do anything about it.

You'd be surprised how many thugs I knew who were into that show. Followed by their women, after Dana became more prominent, followed by the addition of 7 of 9.

Great contrast between Janeway's balanced sense of fair play and standing her ground and those other two's tendency towards being a bit domineering, lol.

 

[Danoh]

Luke 16:16 is the true dispensational perspective.

By the way; what did you mean by the above?

 

[genuineoriginal]

1 Corinthians 15:24 "then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.…

If he hands over the kingdom to the Father per verse 24, he must be reining until the end, not after the end.

His reign begins when He is given the kingdom at the seventh trumpet of Revelation.
The end of His reign is when death itself is destroyed 1 Corinthians 15:26, which happens after the 1,000 year reign Revelation 20:14

Jesus received His kingdom and sits on the throne of David.

No, He does not receive His kingdom until the seventh trumpet of Revelation.

He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, right?

Yes, in fulfillment of prophecy. Zechariah 9:9
He is the promised King, but has not been given His kingdom yet.
When He returns, He will deal harshly with His enemies that would not have Him reign over them. Luke 19:27

"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it."

Forcing their way into an existing, spiritually present kingdom of God

People are trying to become citizens of the kingdom of God.
This is a different kingdom than the one Jesus is given right before He returns.
The kingdoms He will rule over in 1 Corinthians 15 are the kingdoms of the nations that are given to Him at the seventh trumpet.

under the monarchy of Christ or Lord. He is presently the King of Kings, not will be. When His kingdom was established BEFORE the cross, it was established without end.

No, Jesus is not given the title of King of Kings, but will be given that title in His times 1 Timothy 6:15.
The time is His return Revelation 17:14 Revelation 19:16, and it is at that time that His kingdom will be established.

 

[elohiym]

By the way; what did you mean by the above?

The dispensations changed with the ministry of John the Baptist.

That was the start of the new covenant and the abrogation of the old.

 

[Danoh]

The dispensations changed with the ministry of John the Baptist.

That was the start of the new covenant and the abrogation of the old.

Are you saying the Kingdom Dispensation, Administration, Economy, or Stewardship (Luke 12:42,) with it's New Covenant, began at that point?

What do you do with a passage like...

Matthew 8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Or even one as late as...

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

 

[elohiym]

Are you saying the Kingdom Dispensation, Administration, Economy, or Stewardship (Luke 12:42,) with it's New Covenant, began at that point?

Yes, exactly.

What do you do with a passage like...

Matthew 8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Excellent passage to discuss on this point. Thank you for choosing it because I think it's going to help you see evidence for my position.

Jesus violated the letter of the Mosaic law when he touched and pronounced the leper clean, which is why he told the man to not tell anyone what happened. He told the man to go to the priest because the law required it, and doing so would allow the man back into Jewish society. What Jesus did as high priest of the new covenant is the best evidence that the laws of the old covenant, with a different priesthood, were vanishing away at that time (Heb 8:13).

Or even one as late as...

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Does the law lead them to Christ, as Paul taught? Galatians 3:24. It does. So let's consider Matthew 23:1-3 in light of that idea. If they obeyed what Moses wrote, and what the prophets wrote, they would believe the gospel. It was in the Torah that God said another prophet (Jesus) would arise and they should listen to him. It was in the law and prophets that the new covenant was revealed through the narrative, the rituals and the explicit commands and promises.

 

[elohiym]

His reign begins when He is given the kingdom at the seventh trumpet of Revelation.
The end of His reign is when death itself is destroyed 1 Corinthians 15:26, which happens after the 1,000 year reign Revelation 20:14

Why do you interpret the 1,000 years as literal?

He is the promised King, but has not been given His kingdom yet.
When He returns, He will deal harshly with His enemies that would not have Him reign over them. Luke 19:27

They rejected his reign when he allegedly wasn't reigning and has not been given His kingdom yet? Seems like a contradiction.

People are trying to become citizens of the kingdom of God.
This is a different kingdom than the one Jesus is given right before He returns.

There is only one Kingdom.

No, Jesus is not given the title of King of Kings, but will be given that title in His times 1 Timothy 6:15.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

That already happened. He has been reigning ever since.

 

[Danoh]

Re: your post # 17 "...which is why he told the man to not tell any one what had happened" ay, elohiym. Ok; if you say so.

Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

The other part; about the Law leading them to Christ how that was to have played out... well, you're only partly on solid ground on that one.

 

[fzappa13]

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this."

That was accomplished before the cross.

Nay, friend, that throne of David business is discussed at length in Ezekiel and it has yet to happen.