Originally posted by aharvey
It's a work in progress. My first response to Morphy gives you some of what I've found. Reviewing the history of the dispute has been most enlightening. I think it's no accident that most of the current YEC arguments involve things like abiogenesis, information theory, the Big Bang, and the second law of thermodynamics. All of these are irrelevant or at best peripheral to evolutionary theory per se, and all are therefore likely to be outside the areas of expertise of practicing biologists.
Of course, there is also the irreducible complexity class of arguments, which includes the "wow! look how complex cells/genes are!" This entire class of arguments is based on some faulty premises, and, unexpectedly, a healthy dose of appeal to emotion.
In general I have not had good luck getting positive evidence for a young earth creationist view of the world, only arguments against evolution. I have also had little success getting YECs to even provide a logical YEC-based explanation for the few interesting situations I've presented. Brother Willi's post is typical: "it is the way it was meant to be." This may be true, but it's not very useful.
I have also learned that my colleagues are pretty uninformed about the YEC world, even those that work here in the Bible Belt. They tend to be harshly dismissive, but have often never tried to have a reasonable discussion with Creationists. Although I don't get the impression that I've reached many minds here, I do think my level of understanding is far greater than it was last summer.
By the way, it's worth repeating that when I talk about "reaching minds," I don't mean "convert to heathen evolutionism." I take my TOL signature very seriously. If I have a goal besides expanding my own knowledge base, it's that I want people to think more deeply about what they say, what they believe. My goal is not to convert anyone to an Old-earth, evolution-based worldview. My goal is to be able to intelligently discuss, compare, and contrast the assumptions, models, predictions, evidence, and implications of these different world views.
Information theory is foundational to evo, and thus most relevant to current evo theory. I'll admit it isn't important to biologists, but that will come in time. It's math, not biology.
Abiogenesis is used most because it is the biggest hurdle to get over for evo to start. Why evo's claim that abiogenesis is outside of evo theory is an indictment of the theory. But post-protocell arguments are valid against evo, too.
The Big Bang… I don't argue that one, but even other evo-believing scientists dispute the claims of that idea, so I figure I'll wait until they have more solid information on the subject.
The SLoT is a very fundamental principle, and although its effects can easily be seen and explained, the mechanics are very complicated; so lay people can see how it works, and through experience intuit how it will be a difficult for evo to explain away, but they cannot explain the mechanics of it. It's too bad. But we (mankind) will eventually get a theory that will show that not only is going from primitive protocell to a more complex cell an uphill reaction (even more uphill if you talk non-life to life reaction), but the energy claimed to do it will cause more harm than good. I'm a layperson, I can't tell you how. Call it a prediction of YEC.
Irreducible complexity is largely an appeal not to emotion, but more toward common sense. It isn't an emotional appeal to see a watch on a beach and assume it was made by somebody. And the same faulty premise argument can be made for that watch situation; but it won't convince most people – and they will be right, not you. But it isn't a hard science by a longshot, like math. I'll grant you that.
So all the things I mentioned don't prove creation, but they are an argument against evo. I think that's what should be focused on. Even if we don't prove creation, please please please use some common sense and at least say, "Well then, we just don't know how we got here" and leave it at that. Because as science progresses we are getting to the point where evo is becoming not just doubtful, but absurd.
Which brings up Strat's post:
The problem is that the trust in the bible does not usually start at whether evo is true or not. There are other sure things, like coherency, historical consistency, and human nature, that are the beginnings to trust in the bible. Then afterward, the bible and science line up on most things. There are some things it doesn't line up on, like radiometric dating. And other things it doesn't explain, like the flood. But these things don't dispute the validity of the bible, but the bible doesn't explain them or we don't understand them yet. Also, what we don't understand is not completely unknowable, but we have conflicting information currently, and we will have to study the situation more to understand.Originally posted by Stratnerd
To me the primary difference between creationists and scientists is epistemology. Creationists believe that revelation via diety to man is a superior episteme. That is, what is written in the people is absolute Truth. All you need to do is visit AIG or CRC and read their statement of faith to see this. Science, on the other hand, believes that inference, though fallible, is a superior episteme. Revelation doesn't play any role since science seeks to be objective in data gathering and interpretation.
Creationists beef with evolution has nothing do with evidence for creation. In fact, evidence is irrelevent to the creationists position since revelation is their source not inference. This is why creationists create and seek conflicts with evolution like information theory and why they have a difficult time creating a comprehensive theory. The other difficultly is that any creationist theory is likely to conflict with the world. Why? Because the world, via inference, looks to be several billion years old and whose inhabitatants appear to have evolved from each other.
And again, forget the evidence for creation. At least admit that evo is scientifically impossible. Don't agree to the illogical just because of some internal need to explain how we got here. Just be content that we exist, realize that evo doesn't affect your life and move on.
My point is that not only is evo not consistent, it isn't even reasonable.Originally posted by Morphy
My point is: creationists should accept evolution as consistent theory. Otherwise they discourage many people from Christianity. If you consider evolution to be a false theory I hope you have something better to offer instead. Otherwise it is you who will be considered as morons. And I don't want people to think Christians are morons... Every creationist should put it in mind. In medieval ages Catholic church persecuted those who fought the Earth was a globe. Fortunately popes have admitted they were wrong. Hadn't they done it Catholic church would be extinct by now.
And, no, nothing else better needs to replace it to understand that evo isn't a valid scientific theory.
And one more thing, you claim the Catholic Church argued for a flat earth in medieval times. What are you talking about? Can you point me to some info that backs up that claim?
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Edited to attribute quote to correct person
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