Yes and the word teaches he has a God just like us-John 20:17, Rev 3:12
Eternal suffering is not Literal
- Thread starter kjw47
- Start date
Yes and the word teaches he has a God just like us-John 20:17, Rev 3:12
Well it's a good start that you let your ignorance inform your ignorance... I suppose.
I proved my words with the bible. God doesnt contradict himself, proving symbolism in the NT about about a literal eternal suffering, as well this teaching in the NT about it--A place where the worm dieth not.( Mark 9:44) No worm can survive in a hot firey place proving it is symbolism.
Yes, He has a God, His Father...and our Father, if we are "in" His Son: if we have been reborn of God's seed.
I know your position. Like I said, you're not the first Jehovah's Witness to come onto this site spouting that He's proven most of Christianity wrong.
Notice how you avoided responding directly to any of what I had said?
Yes, that tends to happen on a debate/discussion forum.
Doesn't make you right.
You sure did. JWs are cultists, by definition.
*That's
*God's
What, you mean like what He says about people who make prophecies that don't come to pass? Like how the founders of your cult did?
Yup, typical taking things out of context.
To be honest, I have no idea where you're getting this number from (not that I care).
But I recommend you read @Clete's thread on what constitutes the gospel, in other words, what someone must believe to be saved.
Link here:
ECT - The Gospel Proper
The question, "What is the Gospel?" has come up a few times in various recent conversations I've had both here on TOL and elsewhere and I've been somewhat surprised by the degree of confusion that exists around what seems like ought to be a simple thing. Of course the confusion surrounding all...
theologyonline.com
People believe what they want to believe.
What you seem to fail to recognize is that however many different beliefs there are in Christianity (which doesn't include Jehovah's Witnesses), ALL of them accept the Christ was God. ALL of them recognize Him as Lord and Savior. You want unity, start there, by accepting Him as your Lord and Savior, for He alone is God and Savior.
You repeating yourself doesn't make what you say true.
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ” - John 20:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John20:17&version=NKJV
Nope. This verse doesn't deny that God is triune. Next!
He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. - Revelation 3:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation3:12&version=NKJV
Nope. Yet another verse that doesn't deny that God is triune.
No, I don't see what you're saying is in scripture.. And your paradigm of beliefs blinds you from seeing the truth of scripture.
All of the verses you have presented so far do not deny that God is triune.
If anything, they affirm that God is true!
I believe what the Bible says about Jesus, not just what Jesus Himself said, for they are in agreement.
Why do you assume I don't follow the real Jesus?
Why do you assume the Jesus you promote is the real one, and thus, the one to follow?
Anyone can prove their position using scripture. What matters is if scripture actually says what you are trying to prove. In your case, it doesn't, which means no matter how many times you copy and past prooftext after prooftext, you'll still be wrong.
Correct.
If eternal suffering is only symbolism, then eternal life must also be symbolism.
There are plenty of creatures (particularly microscopic creatures) that are thermophiles, meaning, they thrive in very hot locations.
The Bible often uses symbolic language to describe real places and things.
You need to read what Jesus is quoting, to understand what he's saying:
“And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” - Isaiah 66:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah66:24&version=NKJV
And all know 100% God does not have a God.
There, all can see i showed you Gods view of a cult and you throw it away because it proves your house divided will not stand. Whats better being wrong and gaining truth or living in lies by throwing Gods truths away? We all know the JW,s are hated. Jesus said that his followers would be hated because they hated him first. Him and the truth he brought which exposes them. He exposed Gods own chosen scholars of the day while he was here. They hated him for it. They sent him to his death rather than seeing truth out of their haughty hearts.
No, you haven't.
I can't throw away what wasn't given to me.
*What's
The only one throwing anything away is you.
I don't hate JW's, and I daresay no one else here does either. I love them enough to tell them that their beliefs are wrong, and they need to repent.
Don't get full of yourself. You aren't a follower of Christ.
You have no idea what he taught, do you?
It's a lot different than what you proclaim.
They (Israel) hated Him because He was God, because they had turned away from God.
They crucified Him because, like most people who hate God, they would rather kill God than repent.
Spoken like a true cultist! (REALLY! That isn't a joke!)
Are you asking or pondering this question? (The latter would be advisable.)
As well they should be!
JWs are a cult as big as Dallas! Don't believe me? Try to leave! Just try pretending leave and see what happens!
I hate Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton. Does that make then JWs too?
Probably not....
Psalms 139:21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.
They hated Jesus because He claimed to be God and a bunch of people were buying it!
It was His raising Lazarus from the dead that was the final straw. After that, it was no longer deniable that He was who He claimed to be and so they decided that He has to die.
John 11:43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”
45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. 46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. 48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”
49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
53 Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death.
Clete
Well, unless God the Son becomes a human being and submits Himself to obedience to God the Father - even unto death.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”
6 As He also says in another place:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;
7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
Maybe develop a better analogy.
Even if someone loves you, preventing them from leaving is still vary bad. Duh.
I like this part.
I am unable to not understand this.
Too much of an extreme here? If I were trapped in a palatial mansion, it would not be that bad especially compared to being trapped in a dank bunker. In reality men and women in marriage make concessions balancing matters of the heart and economics. Not an ideal, but often true.
Old fashioned, outdated thinking.
Before conception then!!!
Right.
OK, back to the OP.
What do you say happens to the wicked upon their deaths?
That is, on the day of judgement?
The analogy is just fine.
It's your inability to draw the right connections from it that is the problem.
Exactly my point.
Thus, God isn't going to keep those who hate Him for eternity in heaven. That would be wrong, not to mention harmful to those who DO love Him who are in Heaven. It would turn Heaven into Hell.
God cannot force people to love Him, even if He wanted to. Forcing people who hate Him to live with Him in Heaven will only make them hate Him even more.
The double negative is intentional.
Men (referring to mankind) have free will. If one does not have the ability to choose otherwise, then that will is not free. Thus, if God does not allow someone to leave His presence, then He is like the first man in my analogy. I just said, and you just agreed, that love must be freely given. If the man in the analogy does not allow the woman to love him freely, in other words, without coercion, then even if she forms a bond with him, it's not love, it's what we call "Stockholm Syndrome."
You (like kjw47 and others) reject the idea of hell because you think that God wouldn't torture people for eternity, and you're right, but that's not what the Bible says God is going to do. It says that they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, where there will be eternal torment, not torture. God isn't poking them with a hot iron or whipping them with chains. Their torment isn't physical, it's psychological. Here in this life, we as human beings still have access to our Creator, and by God sending His Son to die for us, He made it possible, just as Adam and Eve did, to have a relationship with Him, so that we may live with Him forever. Those who die in their rebellion against Him will be cut off from being able to form a relationship with Him. Being separated from one's Creator is by its very nature a breaking of something that was never intended to be broken.
And that fact will be in their mind for the rest of eternity, "what could have been," will be forever out of their reach. It will burn in their minds like fire and brimstone, the smoke of their torment rising forever and ever. The thought will be an undying worm in their mind, an unquenchable fire. The gloom of darkness will surround them for eternity, Yet, given the choice between that, and living with God for the rest of eternity, they would prefer the former, not because it's not appealing, but because they hate God.
It's a sad state to be in. Therefore, repent, and turn to God, so that you don't have to experience that torment of knowing you will never again be able to interact with the One who made you. If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
If you were trapped there with someone you didn't like, your hatred would only grow, both for the person, and for the place itself. You would eventually despise the luxury, come to hate the walls that trap you, preventing your escape, and seek to leave. Remember, love cannot be forced or coerced. It must be freely given.
Even the perfect Garden of Eden, the place where God placed man and his wife, had a way out, called the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Supra.
I'm not talking about marriage here.
Jesus' words are still true and relevant to this very day, and will be forever.
A person doesn't exist before conception.
7djengo7
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Here, once again, you're using your extra-Biblical phrase, "have a God," without telling us what (if anything) you mean by it.
God is God, and you say "God does not have a God," so, since God is love, do you also want to say "God does not have love"? Also, since God is a Spirit, do you want to say "God does not have a Spirit"?
Is God Godless?
Back in the 30,s and 40,s clergys told their flocks to tar and feather JW,s--they did just that because they lack Jesus' love he taught.
Jesus has a God-God does not have a God= simple reality
I showed you how God views religion, backing my words from his word. Jesus is with 1 single religion( 1 Cor 1:10) unified in love, peace and Gods 1 truth. God never had more than a single religion. There is no need for more than 1.
Even the Israelites knew the Messiah was not God, but has a God-Psalm 45:7--see the word partners at the end of that= angels.
Heb 1:3-4-- The only reason Jesus is better than the angels is because God gave him a name above theirs.
Dan 7:13-15--Ancient of Days = YHWH(Jehovah) one like the son of man= a created being was given a kingship= Jesus.
Jesus answered that--Enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road that leads off into life, FEW are the ones finding it. For MANY have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to destruction.)= eternal destruction.
Jesus has a God-John 20:17, Rev 3:12--his real followers believe him over errors. His real teachers teach that fact as well- Coll 1:3, 1Cor 15:24-28, Eph 1:13,17--1Peter 1:3--Even the psalmist knows its fact-Psalm 45:7---God does not have a God.
7djengo7
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You already said that. What are you trying to accomplish by mindlessly repeating yourself?
So far, you've not told us what (if anything) you mean by your extra-Biblical phrase, "have a God"/"has a God". If you actually mean something by it, then why can't you tell us what you mean by it?
Ok, and what's your point?
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Repeating yourself isn't going to change that.