Eliminating Dispensationalism

[Jacob]

Here is another simple example:

What does dispensationalism say about the following statement?

Matthew 15:24 ASV
24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Do the dispensationalists walk in this Testimony of the Master quoted above? Or do they subvert this statement by saying that it was not spoken to them? If they subvert this statement by placing it in an imaginary concocted separate "dispensation", far away from themselves, then they are not "in Messiah" because they do not walk according to his Testimony but rather subvert it with their false doctrine of a separate "age of grace" which they have carved out for themselves in order to escape the Testimony of the Messiah. And yet the statement above was made to a Canaanite woman of Tyre and she was no doubt eventually grafted into Israel by faith, (Matthew 15:28). The statement from Matthew 15:24 is never going to pass away if one truly believes all of the Testimony of the Master, (Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31).

Shalom.

Interesting.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[beameup]

Shalom.
I am a follower of or adherent to Judaism.
It is not fun to continue thinking on that which is false.

Shalom.

Jacob

There is no Judaism. Judaism ceased to exist when the Temple was destroyed and all Jews were banished from Israel by the Romans.

This present time is often referred to as the "Church Age", where all are saved the same way, regardless of blood-line.
This present age is also referred to as "the Times of the Gentiles", where Israel currently is NOT a part of God's plan.

 

[jshugart]

Shalom.

I used to be a Christian. I am a righteous convert, having been a Gentile. I am a follower or adherent to or of Judaism. I am of Israel, a Jew, Jewish, a proselyte and a convert. I read, study, observe, and teach Torah. As a Christian I believed Jesus, Yeshua, to be the Messiah, the Son of God. As a Jew, I believe Yeshua to be the Messiah, the Son of God. In Judaism we have the expectation of the coming Messiah, and then that Yeshua is that Messiah. Because of God's commands I am Orthodox. I do not mix meat and dairy.

Shalom.

Jacob

Okay, now I understand, thank you for explaining it to me.

I was a Messianic Christian for 7-8 years.

Have you looked at what the Jews teach, and why they say Jesus could not be the Messiah? I only ask, because I only recently looked into what the Jews have to say on the matter, and it wasn't anything like I had assumed.

 

[Jacob]

There is no Judaism. Judaism ceased to exist when the Temple was destroyed and all Jews were banished from Israel by the Romans.

This present time is often referred to as the "Church Age", where all are saved the same way, regardless of blood-line.
This present age is also referred to as "the Times of the Gentiles", where Israel currently is NOT a part of God's plan.

Shalom.

No. You are wrong. I disagree with you. Salvation is of the Jews, and it is in Judaism that we had the expectation of the coming Messiah.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

Okay, now I understand, thank you for explaining it to me.

I was a Messianic Christian for 7-8 years.

Have you looked at what the Jews teach, and why they say Jesus could not be the Messiah? I only ask, because I only recently looked into what the Jews have to say on the matter, and it wasn't anything like I had assumed.

Shalom.

I believe that Yeshua is the expected promised Messiah of Judaism.

Do you believe that the nation of Israel is the Messiah? I do not believe this to be the case.

I am of Israel. I believe Yeshua to be the Messiah.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[jshugart]

Shalom.
I believe that Yeshua is the expected promised Messiah of Judaism.

I used to believe that myself.

Do you believe that the nation of Israel is the Messiah? I do not believe this to be the case.

No, I do not.

I am of Israel.

So am I.

I believe Yeshua to be the Messiah.

I did myself, until I dug into the Jewish position.


Shalom

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I do know what it means to be in Christ Jesus.

I do observe Torah, as a Jew, the 613 Commandments of Torah are for every Jew, though some are for me personally. I do not know how many commandments there are in the Prophets and the Writings. I do also accept Matthew through Revelation which has 1050 Commandments for me to observe.

Do you follow what those in Moses' seat say to do? The Lord Jesus told His disciples this:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not" (Mt.23:1-3).​

 

[tetelestai]

Dispensationalism is a recognition of the Old and New Covenants

Er, no.

Dispensationalism conflates the OC and the NC. Dispensationalism takes OC passages that were fulfilled, and applies them to the yet future.

The alternative to dispensationalism is Replacement Theology. Do you know the meaning of "replacement theology"?

You are a noahide type... Messianic Jew.

Dispensationalism understands your stance. Replacement Theology? Um... you are not respected by Replacement Theology.

You're correct.

The NC has replaced the OC.

In the NC, those who have faith in Christ Jesus are the Israel of God. Those who have faith in Christ Jesus are the children of Abraham.

Darby Followers (Dispensationalists) disagree, Darby Followers still look to the flesh. Darby Followers claim God still has a plan for the Jews.

 

[glorydaz]

And when were you ever "under the schoolmaster"? Paul uses that term to speak of the Torah as if a crossing guard to bring us safely to Messiah. If therefore you have never been "under the Law" then how can you truly know what it means to be "in Messiah"? for the Torah is the schoolmaster or crossing guard to bring us to Messiah. How much time did you spend "under the Law" before coming to be "in Messiah"? In fact you appear to be mixing terms in a way that is really unrelated because "in Messiah" no doubt means WALKING IN HIS FULL TESTIMONY, (found in the Gospel accounts), which Testimony he paid for with his own blood at Golgotha, (and therefore his Testimony is equivalent to his blood).

I don't believe that's the case...even though lots of people might think so. I've been under the schoolmaster from the day I was old enough to choose good over evil. Paul speaks of the LAW OF GOD...those same laws that are written in our conscience...right and wrong.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

Romans 2:14-15KJV For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )​

That "schoolmaster" which finds us GUILTY is what causes us to turn to Jesus Christ via faith. Even the Gentiles....."the world may become guilty before God".

Being in Christ is what Paul teaches concerning believers being members of the body of Christ...created IN HIM as new creatures.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

 

[Jacob]

I used to believe that myself.




No, I do not.




So am I.




I did myself, until I dug into the Jewish position.


Shalom

Shalom.

You are welcome to explain what you have learned if you think that it would benefit someone. At this point I have exhausted the subject with you. You said that you are of Israel. How so?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[glorydaz]

Shalom.

I do know what it means to be in Christ Jesus.

I do observe Torah, as a Jew, the 613 Commandments of Torah are for every Jew, though some are for me personally. I do not know how many commandments there are in the Prophets and the Writings. I do also accept Matthew through Revelation which has 1050 Commandments for me to observe.

Shalom.

Jacob

1050? And if you're guilty of one you are guilty of all. :nono:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.​

 

[Jacob]

Do you follow what those in Moses' seat say to do? The Lord Jesus told His disciples this:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not" (Mt.23:1-3).​

Shalom.

Yes.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[glorydaz]

Shalom.

You are welcome to explain what you have learned if you think that it would benefit someone. At this point I have exhausted the subject with you. You said that you are of Israel. How so?

Shalom.

Jacob

You get exhausted very easily....moving on from one subject to the next, but never coming to any conclusion.

You're lost and wandering around in the wilderness. That's sad since everything you seek is close at hand.

 

[glorydaz]

Shalom.

Yes.

Shalom.

Jacob

I'll bet you don't. You're fibbing to us. You don't even know what those 1050 laws are, do you?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes.

Where do you find the ones who you say you follow, the scribes and the Pharisees who sit in Moses' seat?:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not" (Mt.23:1-3).​

 

[Jacob]

1050? And if you're guilty of one you are guilty of all. :nono:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.​

Shalom.

Obedience to or observance of God's Law is not about guilt. If you are guilty you ought to repent and obey God's commands. Depending on what you have done you will need to do something according to the Law. There may be a sacrifice (without a temple for sacrifice you can pray) and if you have stolen anything you will have to make that right according to the Law. If a believer has offended you or sinned, forgive and follow the Biblical pattern (see Matthew 18:15-17).

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[tetelestai]

Shalom.

As I start this thread in the United States of America, where I live and where I am a citizen, it is Sheni, Ziv 12, day.

I am a Jew, of Israel, Jewish, as a proselyte and a convert. I used to be a Christian Dispensationalist. There are some things or views of premillenial dispensationalism that I did not find in scripture, that are still a part of my mind. They need to be cleared up. I was pretribulation rapture, by what I was taught. I do not accept a seven year tribulation preceding a millennium.

How do you replace false thoughts or ideas with that which is true? Is there a process for this? Can you exchange one thought for another?

I read, study, observe, and teach (others) Torah. I desire that others would know about God's commands. I accept the TaNaKh and Matthew through Revelation.

Shalom.

Jacob

Hmmmmm....So are you a Messianic Jew?

First off, Dispensationalism is a false teaching that didn't exist before John Nelson Darby invented it in 1830.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a "Jew" in the New Covenant. Those who have faith in Christ Jesus are the Israel of God. Those who have faith in Christ Jesus are the children of Abraham.

 

[beameup]

Shalom.

No. You are wrong. I disagree with you. Salvation is of the Jews, and it is in Judaism that we had the expectation of the coming Messiah.
Shalom. Jacob

According to Romans chapters 9,10,11 the Jews have been "cut off" from God.
There is no Temple, so it is impossible to obey Moses' Law, so no JUDAISM exists.
No wonder you are confused.

 

[Jacob]

You get exhausted very easily....moving on from one subject to the next, but never coming to any conclusion.

You're lost and wandering around in the wilderness. That's sad since everything you seek is close at hand.

Shalom.

To exhaust oneself is different from being exhausted, but I was realizing or recognizing after the fact that I have shared the points, all that I can, in answer, learning that what I have learned is not what he is talking about.

I am not lost or wanderingaround at all. I believe Yeshua to be the Messiah. It seems that he does not, and I do not know why.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[beameup]

Hmmmmm....So are you a Messianic Jew?

First off, Dispensationalism is a false teaching that didn't exist before John Nelson Darby invented it in 1830.

Dispensations are mentioned 3 times by the Apostle Paul. Perhaps you should read a New Testament.
As well, the concept is taught by the disciples of the disciples/apostles (Early Church Fathers).
You obviously are of Replacement Theology. Replacement Theology was created by the early Catholics.