ECT Does the book of James contradict Paul's epistles? How?

[Arsenios]

I am familiar with the concept of gnosis, although I do not understand why that is pertinent to my post.

Its relevance is because it is the root of the third word you use in your next sentence:

Oh, I know...

Know = gno(w) They are the same word... And in Hebrew idiomatics of the time, and even today, it is used to mean the conjugal union of a man and his wife...

So that when you say "I KNOW" you are speaking not of words, but of BEING ONE WITH what you claim to know... And in this case, it can only mean that you have had the experience of knowing God's speaking to YOU first hand...

And the problem with that is your "proof", which means that you do NOT know God's speaking with you, but you only know the CONCEPTS ABOUT that knowing that are written in the Bible... And these concepts mean one thing to a Muslim, another to a Presbyterian, another to a Jehova's Witness, and another to an LDS... Each according to their teachings and traditions... Just as is your own...

Because you said: I KNOW HOW GOD ...

I KNOW HOW GOD communicated to Moses and others on many occasions.

To say this, you either have to BE God, or be someone with whom God communicated, because if you only know what you have read in the Bible, then you only know ABOUT the communication, and you do NOT KNOW the communication itself... Just as you KNOW your own wife, but do not have the same KNOWLEDGE of another man's wife - At least I pray so! You may know a lot about her, but you do not KNOW her...

And then you go on to say:

The Lord spoke to them.

And you then cite many passages which say exactly that...

Exodus 4:1-17;6:1-2;7:14;12:1 etc.....

I Samuel 3:11

II Kings 7:4-5

Job 40:1

Isaiah 8:1

And if that fulisade did not render me onto the canvas, you offer more:

Need more? See Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc.....

So you say the Lord SPOKE to them, and indeed He did, and indeed Scripture faithfully records that He did...

The question is this: "HOW did the Lord speak to them?"
Because you said YOU KNOW HOW...

And from your words, you seem to imagine that he spoke to them as one speaks to one's companion, in words that can be heard... But if you read the account of Paul's meeting of the Lord on the Road to Damascus, you will see that Paul "heard" but that the others did NOT hear, so that the "hearing" was not in the ears of Paul, but in his mind... The others heard no words at all...

And this is true of all the Prophets...

ONLY THEY THEMSELVES can "HEAR" the words of God... And what they are hearing is NOT audible, and we cannot say exactly what it was that they heard, except that they tell us that God "spoke" to them... And no one else knows what that "spoke" means...

You are right, of course... God can clearly speak noetically with great verbal precision to the nous of a person... And He can "speak" in a large variety of additional ways as well... He can even materialize in a room, as He did with the 11, and speak audibly so that anyone in the room can hear Him... He can speak through an angel who may or may not appear... He can give dreams and visions... He can do combinations of any and all these...

And we cannot tell from Scripture HOW God spoke to His holy ones... We just know that with only a few exceptions, it was not an ORAL communication mouth to ear...

When God spoke to Noah, it was a Spiritual, and not a Physical, event... And YOU do NOT KNOW HOW that event transpired... You do not know how God communicated to men outside His Incarnation and Resurrection...

Nor do I...

But AFTER His Resurrection, God speaks to us in the flesh of His Holy Ones in His Holy Body, the Ekklesia of God... And has been doing so for 2000 years now... But in order for THAT to happen, one must first be as Paul was, a called Apostle of the Risen Christ... And you remember that he said such men were "Last, as appointed unto death, in all (manner of worldly) straits..."

Knowing God IS Life eternal...

It is not conceptual, but ontological...

Divine ascent, from Glory to Glory, is not conceptual...

It is real...

Words come later... And only describe what they cannot define...

Arsenios

 

[oatmeal]

Its relevance is because it is the root of the third word you use in your next sentence:



Know = gno(w) They are the same word... And in Hebrew idiomatics of the time, and even today, it is used to mean the conjugal union of a man and his wife...

So that when you say "I KNOW" you are speaking not of words, but of BEING ONE WITH what you claim to know... And in this case, it can only mean that you have had the experience of knowing God's speaking to YOU first hand...

And the problem with that is your "proof", which means that you do NOT know God's speaking with you, but you only know the CONCEPTS ABOUT that knowing that are written in the Bible... And these concepts mean one thing to a Muslim, another to a Presbyterian, another to a Jehova's Witness, and another to an LDS... Each according to their teachings and traditions... Just as is your own...

Because you said: I KNOW HOW GOD ...



To say this, you either have to BE God, or be someone with whom God communicated, because if you only know what you have read in the Bible, then you only know ABOUT the communication, and you do NOT KNOW the communication itself... Just as you KNOW your own wife, but do not have the same KNOWLEDGE of another man's wife - At least I pray so! You may know a lot about her, but you do not KNOW her...

And then you go on to say:



And you then cite many passages which say exactly that...



And if that fulisade did not render me onto the canvas, you offer more:



So you say the Lord SPOKE to them, and indeed He did, and indeed Scripture faithfully records that He did...

The question is this: "HOW did the Lord speak to them?"
Because you said YOU KNOW HOW...

And from your words, you seem to imagine that he spoke to them as one speaks to one's companion, in words that can be heard... But if you read the account of Paul's meeting of the Lord on the Road to Damascus, you will see that Paul "heard" but that the others did NOT hear, so that the "hearing" was not in the ears of Paul, but in his mind... The others heard no words at all...

And this is true of all the Prophets...

ONLY THEY THEMSELVES can "HEAR" the words of God... And what they are hearing is NOT audible, and we cannot say exactly what it was that they heard, except that they tell us that God "spoke" to them... And no one else knows what that "spoke" means...

You are right, of course... God can clearly speak noetically with great verbal precision to the nous of a person... And He can "speak" in a large variety of additional ways as well... He can even materialize in a room, as He did with the 11, and speak audibly so that anyone in the room can hear Him... He can speak through an angel who may or may not appear... He can give dreams and visions... He can do combinations of any and all these...

And we cannot tell from Scripture HOW God spoke to His holy ones... We just know that with only a few exceptions, it was not an ORAL communication mouth to ear...

When God spoke to Noah, it was a Spiritual, and not a Physical, event... And YOU do NOT KNOW HOW that event transpired... You do not know how God communicated to men outside His Incarnation and Resurrection...

Nor do I...

But AFTER His Resurrection, God speaks to us in the flesh of His Holy Ones in His Holy Body, the Ekklesia of God... And has been doing so for 2000 years now... But in order for THAT to happen, one must first be as Paul was, a called Apostle of the Risen Christ... And you remember that he said such men were "Last, as appointed unto death, in all (manner of worldly) straits..."

Knowing God IS Life eternal...

It is not conceptual, but ontological...

Divine ascent, from Glory to Glory, is not conceptual...

It is real...

Words come later... And only describe what they cannot define...

Arsenios

The post of mine that you replied to had only one sentence in it, and it did not contain the word "know".

Therefore you introduced the subject of knowing. I am still curious why you introduced that.

by the way, if you read my post carefully, you will find you are failing to quote me and seem to want me to continue to address subjects that I did not address.

My statement was meddled with, your "copy" of my statement is:


"I KNOW HOW GOD communicated to Moses and others on many occasions."

whereas, my actual statement is:

"Oh, I know how God communicated to Moses and others on many occasions."

Which was followed with:

"The Lord spoke to them."

After which I provided a very short list of scriptural references which illustrated statement

So I will rephrase for your clarity.

One of the ways that God communicated to believers is that God spoke to them.

There are other ways, but one of the ways God communicates with individuals is by speaking to them.

Why not read a few of those records and learn

God's spirit communicates with the spirit that God put upon some men and women in the OT and by the spirit that believers in this age of grace had been born again by or given. I John 4:13

As for the word gnosis, it may be used idiomatically, but its basic meaning is knowledge.

yes, God speaking to believers is spiritual not a physical event, although there are times that has occurred as well

 

[JosephR]

the 12 gathered around the Lord Christ Jesus and asked, Rabbi we know soon you will be gone from us, who will we look to for direction,leadership???

The Lord Jesus Christ replied, "To James the Just you will seek,and He will guide you"

 

[oatmeal]

the 12 gathered around the Lord Christ Jesus and asked, Rabbi we know soon you will be gone from us, who will we look to for direction,leadership???

The Lord Jesus Christ replied, "To James the Just you will seek,and He will guide you"

Well, thanks for your assessment of this post.

Do you read James or do you ignore its wisdom?

 

[JosephR]

Well, thanks for your assessment of this post.

Do you read James or do you ignore its wisdom?

to ignore James the Just is to ignore the Lord Christ Jesus.

 

[oatmeal]

to ignore James the Just is to ignore the Lord Christ Jesus.

Well said!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You are full of it.

According to you my testimony is a sham and satan fooled me

Until you learn to tell the truth you are on ignore

Anything to deny the truth in these verses you will do---


Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

LA

 

[Right Divider]

Anything to deny the truth in these verses you will do---


Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

LA

You should rename yourself: Wrong Divider.

You don't understand the difference between Gods two programs that He will eventually join into one.

Eph 1:9-12 KJV Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
​

 

[JosephR]

You should rename yourself: Wrong Divider.

You don't understand the difference between Gods two programs that He will eventually join into one.

Eph 1:9-12 KJV Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
​

nice list, thank you for thanking about me, im alive, well and doing fine

 

[JosephR]

nice list, thank you for thanking about me, im alive, well and doing fine

I almost got offended,,then I looked at the list, and I am damn proud to be among them

problem is sir...there is no line in the sand..

 

[Right Divider]

nice list, thank you for thanking about me, im alive, well and doing fine

What does your comment have to do with the post that you quoted?

And what ever happened to that proud profile picture of yours?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

to ignore James the Just is to ignore the Lord Christ Jesus.

James isn't ignored! None of the Bible ought to be ignored! Its just
that, certain books of the Bible are not speaking to the gentile
people's or the "Body of Christ." Certain books pertain to the
'House of Israel.' James is one of those!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

James isn't ignored! None of the Bible ought to be ignored! Its just
that, certain books of the Bible are not speaking to the gentile
people's or the "Body of Christ." Certain books pertain to the
'House of Israel.' James is one of those!

Only according to your man made religion.

James brethren are the Church which is His body, the House of Israel which both Peter and Paul were made members of.

Forgiveness of sins pertains to the House of Israel--

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Only according to your man made religion.

James brethren are the Church which is His body, the House of Israel which both Peter and Paul were made members of.

Forgiveness of sins pertains to the House of Israel--

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews is another book written to; the Hebrews! What's wrong
with you? Oh, now I remember what's wrong with you! You're
"wrong" that's what's wrong with you!!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Hebrews is another book written to; the Hebrews! What's wrong
with you? Oh, now I remember what's wrong with you! You're
"wrong" that's what's wrong with you!!

The book of Hebrews was written to believers of the new covenant.

God does not mind what flesh the believers came from, and after they come to Christ then they leave their fathers household and become members of Gods Household, the Israel of God.

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Psa 45:9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.
Psa 45:10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;
Psa 45:11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.

LA

 

[patrick jane]

You should rename yourself: Wrong Divider.

You don't understand the difference between Gods two programs that He will eventually join into one.

Eph 1:9-12 KJV Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
​

Amen. just another Scripture Eph - 1:10- that many just glance at while trying to hold on to their "original" understanding. - it's there - atrol:

 

[patrick jane]

Its relevance is because it is the root of the third word you use in your next sentence:



Know = gno(w) They are the same word... And in Hebrew idiomatics of the time, and even today, it is used to mean the conjugal union of a man and his wife...

So that when you say "I KNOW" you are speaking not of words, but of BEING ONE WITH what you claim to know... And in this case, it can only mean that you have had the experience of knowing God's speaking to YOU first hand...

And the problem with that is your "proof", which means that you do NOT know God's speaking with you, but you only know the CONCEPTS ABOUT that knowing that are written in the Bible... And these concepts mean one thing to a Muslim, another to a Presbyterian, another to a Jehova's Witness, and another to an LDS... Each according to their teachings and traditions... Just as is your own...

Because you said: I KNOW HOW GOD ...



To say this, you either have to BE God, or be someone with whom God communicated, because if you only know what you have read in the Bible, then you only know ABOUT the communication, and you do NOT KNOW the communication itself... Just as you KNOW your own wife, but do not have the same KNOWLEDGE of another man's wife - At least I pray so! You may know a lot about her, but you do not KNOW her...

And then you go on to say:



And you then cite many passages which say exactly that...



And if that fulisade did not render me onto the canvas, you offer more:



So you say the Lord SPOKE to them, and indeed He did, and indeed Scripture faithfully records that He did...

The question is this: "HOW did the Lord speak to them?"
Because you said YOU KNOW HOW...

And from your words, you seem to imagine that he spoke to them as one speaks to one's companion, in words that can be heard... But if you read the account of Paul's meeting of the Lord on the Road to Damascus, you will see that Paul "heard" but that the others did NOT hear, so that the "hearing" was not in the ears of Paul, but in his mind... The others heard no words at all...

And this is true of all the Prophets...

ONLY THEY THEMSELVES can "HEAR" the words of God... And what they are hearing is NOT audible, and we cannot say exactly what it was that they heard, except that they tell us that God "spoke" to them... And no one else knows what that "spoke" means...

You are right, of course... God can clearly speak noetically with great verbal precision to the nous of a person... And He can "speak" in a large variety of additional ways as well... He can even materialize in a room, as He did with the 11, and speak audibly so that anyone in the room can hear Him... He can speak through an angel who may or may not appear... He can give dreams and visions... He can do combinations of any and all these...

And we cannot tell from Scripture HOW God spoke to His holy ones... We just know that with only a few exceptions, it was not an ORAL communication mouth to ear...

When God spoke to Noah, it was a Spiritual, and not a Physical, event... And YOU do NOT KNOW HOW that event transpired... You do not know how God communicated to men outside His Incarnation and Resurrection...

Nor do I...

But AFTER His Resurrection, God speaks to us in the flesh of His Holy Ones in His Holy Body, the Ekklesia of God... And has been doing so for 2000 years now... But in order for THAT to happen, one must first be as Paul was, a called Apostle of the Risen Christ... And you remember that he said such men were "Last, as appointed unto death, in all (manner of worldly) straits..."

Knowing God IS Life eternal...

It is not conceptual, but ontological...

Divine ascent, from Glory to Glory, is not conceptual...

It is real...

Words come later... And only describe what they cannot define...

Arsenios

I know. amazing 2 words. implying no debate. it's over, because i know. i try not to use that phrase, but it's so tempting. because it can possibly end a debate or discussion. you know ? i know. when someone "knows" - it's too late - atrol:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Only according to your man made religion.

James brethren are the Church which is His body, the House of Israel which both Peter and Paul were made members of.

Forgiveness of sins pertains to the House of Israel--

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Arsenios]

The post of mine that you replied to had only one sentence in it,
and it did not contain the word "know".

My ... actual statement is:

"Oh, I know how God communicated to Moses and others on many occasions."

Which was followed with:

"The Lord spoke to them."

Well, now you know why the working title of my smash-hit in progress writing of my Autobiography of Old Age is:

"Blathering in My Drool"

So I will rephrase for your clarity.

Thank-you...

One of the ways that God communicated to believers is that God spoke to them.

There are other ways, but one of the ways God communicates with individuals is by speaking to them.

Why not read a few of those records and learn

My only point in this is that this God-"SPEAK"-ing is NOT AUDIBLE...

God's spirit communicates with the spirit that God put upon some men and women in the OT and by the spirit that believers in this age of grace had been born again by or given. I John 4:13

OK -

As for the word gnosis, it may be used idiomatically, but its basic meaning is knowledge.

Biblically, it carries the Hebraic idiom, which carries over to the Marriage of the Lamb, which is the relationship of the human soul to God that is eternal life. John 17:3

This relationship between God and man is described as a Mystery which is akin with marriage between a man and a woman, except infinitely more intimate, the joy and pleasure of which makes the nuptial joy of earthly marriages but a pale imitation...

It is no accident that KNOWING GOD is eternal life, and that the knowing is idiom for marital relations...

yes, God speaking to believers is spiritual not a physical event, although there are times that has occurred as well

I think we are kinda on the same page...

We assess gnosis differently...

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Hebrews is another book written to; the Hebrews!

So we must ignore everything Paul writes to the Hebrews?

Should I get out my scissors and cut out chapter 7 of Romans?

Romans 7:1 "For I am speaking to those KNOWING THE LAW..."

Or is Romans 7 relevant to us Gentiles?

Arsenios