Does God know the future?

[nancy]

Godrulz, and I can argue that open theism is something that you guys hashed up as well and is just twisting Biblical writing.

I can say that believing God is in time, corporate elect and everything else of open theism is hashed up to fit your theology. In fact, it goes against two thousand years of Christian teaching and will probably never catch on and die out.

 

[Clete]

knight planning something is providence not predestination.

I'm still not buying this, yet.

Let me ask a question.

Is it your belief that these so called providencial plans of God can, by any means, not come to pass or are they absolutely certain to happen just as God planned them?

If the latter then that's predestination. Destiny has been PRE determined, thus the term predestination.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

How could going One on One with me be like "ganging up"?

Or are you commenting on my the fact I have truth on my side?

I told you I don't know what One on One is. Is it something new at TOL? What are the rules? What topics are discussed?

 

[intro2faith]

I told you I don't know what One on One is. Is it something new at TOL? What are the rules? What topics are discussed?

One on one is just where you talk with someone else one on one. Other people can read the thread, but they can't post on it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I told you I don't know what One on One is. Is it something new at TOL? What are the rules? What topics are discussed?

That's why I gave you a link to the forum silly!

And in more detail.

One on Ones are a step down from a formal Battle Royale. Basically it's just a thread that we can discuss something One on One. I don't like them to last more than a week or so. You can respond as much as you like and we can keep the posts short and sweet.

 

[Z Man]

Z Man,

Knight is right. All of the verses that whomever you were quoting from used do not teach what you are saying they teach. What that person did was read Calvinism into those verses. If someone who was totally uninitiated in the Christian faith and simply read those passages they would not come away from them believe that God exists outside of time.

Anyone can say that for an answer! Anything you guys say from now on, I'll just say, "What you guys did was read the Open View doctrine into those verses."

There is nothing about Calvinism at all being read into those verses or being quoted from or anything. I simply posted verses straight out of the Bible from a website that put it all together and came to a conclusion based on what is said. The evidence is there; God is above time. It's all over the Bible.

The existence or removal of clocks does not make or remove time. It took time to make the Sun, Earth, Moon and stars and it would take time to destroy them and after they were gone there would be events that occured AFTERWARD (a reference to time). There just isn't anything here that says anything like God created time. He definately created things by which time is reconned but that is not the same thing.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe when the writers of the Bible were writing about God and Creation and other aspects of Him working 'in time', that that was the only way they knew how to express what was going on? How can someone who is trapped in time and has only experienced their whole life by the flow of time, explain and write on paper about a God who transcends time - who created time? The only way to explain the events that God has brought about is by placing them in a sequence of time. My post explained that earlier:

Time is not fatalistic or capricious, but, according to Scripture, under God's personal direction and control. Time began at creation and becomes THE AGENCY through which God continues to unveil his divine purpose for it.

 

[Z Man]

That's why I gave you a link to the forum silly!

And in more detail.

One on Ones are a step down from a formal Battle Royale. Basically it's just a thread that we can discuss something One on One. I don't like them to last more than a week or so. You can respond as much as you like and we can keep the posts short and sweet.

Oh. Well, it sounds cool. What would we discuss? TULIP?

 

[Clete]

Anyone can say that for an answer! Anything you guys say from now on, I'll just say, "What you guys did was read the Open View doctrine into those verses."

This is not so Z Man and you know it. The verses you quoted do not say on their own what you are sugggesting they say. If I ever quote a verse and am doing the same thing, I want for you to point it out to me so that I may correct my error. The Bible does not need my help to get its own point across.

There is nothing about Calvinism at all being read into those verses or being quoted from or anything.

I showed you specifically how it is being read into them. If you simply read them you would not get from them what you are suggesting.

I simply posted verses straight out of the Bible from a website that put it all together and came to a conclusion based on what is said. The evidence is there; God is above time. It's all over the Bible.

No you didn't simply quote the Bible verses, you told us what you think they say before you quoted them. Had you only quoted them your point would have completely lost, no one would have had a clue what you were saying, which is proof in itself that these verses do not teach what you say they do. The Bible doesn't need you help either Z Man.

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe when the writers of the Bible were writing about God and Creation and other aspects of Him working 'in time', that that was the only way they knew how to express what was going on? How can someone who is trapped in time and has only experienced their whole life by the flow of time, explain and write on paper about a God who transcends time - who created time?

How about this...

"The Father in heaven, who created time does not exist within and is not restricted within the confines of time."

That was easy!

The only way to explain the events that God has brought about is by placing them in a sequence of time.

Which is only that much more evidence that He exists within time.

My post explained that earlier:

Time is not fatalistic or capricious, but, according to Scripture, under God's personal direction and control. Time began at creation and becomes THE AGENCY through which God continues to unveil his divine purpose for it.

Great! Where does it say anything about this in the Bible? If you are able to so clearly articulate the subject why do suppose that God would have such a hard time getting the idea across in the Bible? Why would God be forced to render every thing He ever did in the context of time if you are not forced to do so? Why?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Great! Where does it say anything about this in the Bible?

I posted a whole slew of verses! Didn't you read them?

If you are able to so clearly articulate the subject why do suppose that God would have such a hard time getting the idea across in the Bible?

It's not that He had a hard time getting the idea across in the Bible; it's just that we have a hard time understanding it!

Why would God be forced to render every thing He ever did in the context of time if you are not forced to do so? Why?

Because it's the only way we can understand it. We live in time; He has to make it make sense for us.

 

[godrulz]

How can God be the Alpha AND Omega, at the same time?

Revelation 1:8 (past, present, future)

Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End, First and Last are titles for God/Jesus (Revelation; Isaiah). They are not timeless expressions. He is the One with no beginning and no end. He is from everlasting to everlasting. There is no need to read timelessness or 'eternal now' into this title (preconceived theology vs explicit).

 

[godrulz]

Godrulz, and I can argue that open theism is something that you guys hashed up as well and is just twisting Biblical writing.

I can say that believing God is in time, corporate elect and everything else of open theism is hashed up to fit your theology. In fact, it goes against two thousand years of Christian teaching and will probably never catch on and die out.

Corporate election is not a cornerstone teaching of Open Theism. A variety of authors have recognized the group analogies used of Israel and the Church. Individualism is a modern disease.

 

[drbrumley]

“There was a time when Time did not exist, and after some time, Time began.” This is an illogical theory, because events have to be separating in order to change the initial situation. As such, Time must have always existed. It must be eternal in the same sense as the First Cause must be Eternal. Neither can have a beginning. Things can change, but Time must continue on forever, as the simple separation of events. Even if all events were to cease, Time would be the measure of how long it has been since they ceased.

ZMan, in case you missed it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Oh. Well, it sounds cool. What would we discuss? TULIP?

I will set it up later today or sometime tomorrow, OK?

We can discuss this topic and the scripture you think I should be addressing.

 

[Johnny]

Even if all events were to cease, Time would be the measure of how long it has been since they ceased.

And how would you measure that?

 

[godrulz]

And how would you measure that?

The measure of time varies, especially when the universe was created (sun, moon, stars). The fundamental essence of time (sequence/duration/succession) has been an aspect of the triune God forever. God is love. Love is not limiting God. God experiences duration. This does not limit God, but affirms that He is personal since will, intellect, and emotions require succession to be real. Listening to a Symphony in an 'eternal now' moment would be cacophony (harsh, discordant).

 

[Johnny]

What are you talking about? I asked how one would measure time if all events ceased.

You've presented a good argument that God acts in time, but that does not mean He is bound by time. Why can't he jump forward or backwards in time?

 

[drbrumley]

What are you talking about? I asked how one would measure time if all events ceased.

You've presented a good argument that God acts in time, but that does not mean He is bound by time. Why can't he jump forward or backwards in time?

The question is why does He have to? There is no need for God to go back in time. He already knows the PAST perfectly!

 

[godrulz]

What are you talking about? I asked how one would measure time if all events ceased.

You've presented a good argument that God acts in time, but that does not mean He is bound by time. Why can't he jump forward or backwards in time?

One can measure time in numerous ways. Time is not space or a place to visit. You are thinking of Michael J. Fox in "Back to the Future". The past is fixed. It has already happened. It is a mere memory. It is unchangeable and unvisitable in reality. One can recall it, recreate it, ponder it, but one cannot go there and visit it. It is not that He is bound in time, since time is not a little line or cubby hole. It is merely the concept of duration/succession/sequence. The past, present, and future are distinguishable by God. He is not in an 'eternal now' moment. If He was, creation, incarnation, Second Coming actually happen simultaneously. This is nonsense. His revelation was progressive over years, not timelessness (whatever that means).

Likewise, the future is not a place to visit. It is not there yet. It is merely potential in the mind of God. This is why prayer and choices of free moral agents can change the future. The future is not fixed (except what God has settled by His intention to eventually bring it to pass e.g. First/Second Coming). God does not need to go into the future. He can project all possible futures and is able to deal with any contingencies because He is creatively omnicompetent. He can 'go' to the future in His mind, but He does not actually know or experience it since it is not there in reality. Do not confuse space with time. Only the present is actual.

This common sense view of time is how we all live and function. It does not contradict Scripture, but does contradict uncritically accepted philosophical views of what eternity must mean. Endless duration is a superior understanding of eternity vs timelessness (see research on A and B theories of time).

If I shoot my cat in the head, can I go back into the past and change this event? Can God?

If the Superbowl in 20 years is not played yet, can I see or know it without causing it? Can God? Can we blur the distinction between past, present, and future and make any sense of it? You wrongly assume that the past or future is identical to the present. They are not (this is self-evident in the Bible and real life).

 

[Clete]

I posted a whole slew of verses! Didn't you read them?

We've been over that. Your verses do not say anything about the creation of time or God's existence outside of time.

It's not that He had a hard time getting the idea across in the Bible; it's just that we have a hard time understanding it!

How it is hard to understand? Is Augustine smarter than God? He was able to articulate the idea dozens of very easily understandable ways, none of which are remotely Biblical.

Because it's the only way we can understand it. We live in time; He has to make it make sense for us.

But we do understand it! If we couldn't understand it, you and I couldn't be having this discussion. What's there to not understand? I mean the idea it self-contradictory and irrational but so is a lot of stuff they do and say on Star Trek. That doesn't mean it's difficult to imagine or to understand.

Further more, this entire argument of yours is built upon the concession that you have made implicitly that the Bible does not directly speak about God being outside of time and that every passage is written as though God experiences time the same way we do. You must therefore,by your own argument, go outside the Bible to get this idea about God existing outside of time. As far as I'm concerned you've defeated your own position.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

We've been over that. Your verses do not say anything about the creation of time or God's existence outside of time.


How it is hard to understand? Is Augustine smarter than God? He was able to articulate the idea dozens of very easily understandable ways, none of which are remotely Biblical.


But we do understand it! If we couldn't understand it, you and I couldn't be having this discussion. What's there to not understand? I mean the idea it self-contradictory and irrational but so is a lot of stuff they do and say on Star Trek. That doesn't mean it's difficult to imagine or to understand.

Further more, this entire argument of yours is built upon the concession that you have made implicitly that the Bible does not directly speak about God being outside of time and that every passage is written as though God experiences time the same way we do. You must therefore,by your own argument, go outside the Bible to get this idea about God existing outside of time. As far as I'm concerned you've defeated your own position.

Resting in Him,
Clete

The Scriptures speak for themselves. When I read them, I see what I see, and I guess you see what you want to see. I'm not interested in people's guesses about how God and time relate; that's why I posted Scriptures. Of course the Bible isn't forthcoming about God being in or out of time, but from the verses I did gather together in my previous posts, it clearly indicates to me that God is sovereign over time, and He is by no means limited by it, or cannot perceive the future or whatever.

Oh well, to each his own.