Does God know the future?
- Thread starter intro2faith
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intro2faith
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Let's say there is a meteor that is headed directly for Earth. We know that it is going to hit Earth. It hasn't hit yet, but we know it will. Does the fact that we know it's going to hit MAKE it hit?
That is a hypothetical situation, but in essence, it is the same thing with God. Just because He knows that something is going to happen, does not mean that He MAKES it happen, and we have no free will because of it.
That is a hypothetical situation, but in essence, it is the same thing with God. Just because He knows that something is going to happen, does not mean that He MAKES it happen, and we have no free will because of it.
Maybe you forgot to put the crystals in your time machine?kmoney said:
Party pooper!godrulz said:
A meteor is not a freewill agent.intro2faith said:
Therefore your analogy is fatally flawed.
Sorry, but I will not take anyone seriously who is willing to rape scripture the way you just did simply to make a point. :vomit:Quasar1011 said:
The verse you referenced does not say time will stop! Yet that God is not going to wait any longer in other words God is saying "time is up!"
Which is why other translations accurately translate the verse....
NKJV Revelation 10:6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer,
ASV Revelation 10:6 and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be delay no longer:
intro2faith
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Knight said:
Ok, let us say a HUMAN is falling down to Earth
Just because we know he will hit the Earth(yikes) does that mean we made it happen?
Quasar1011
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I quoted the King James there. The Bible version I like to study from, is the NIV. And the NIV pretty much says what you just said.Knight said:
However, I didn't say what you said I said. Let me re-post it:
Quasar1011 said:
I didn't say "time will stop", in the sense that there will be no cause and effect, or nothing happening. I simply said that the reckoning of time will have to change. We know it will have to change, because of Revelation 21:23
"The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."
Now, that doesn't say there will be no sun, nor moon, but that they are no longer needed for their original purposes. One of those purposes was light. But another was timekeeping.
Kindly refrain from using words like raping scripture, when you do not read my post closely enough, thank you.
Quasar1011
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deardelmar said:
Because God has the ability to move backwards in time. We know this from Scripture.
Chapters 40-48 of the book of Ezekiel, describe the future. In these passages, a "man" tells Ezekiel key things about what is to come. Here is the intorduction, from Ezekiel 40:2-4:
In visions of God he took me to the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, on whose south side were some buildings that looked like a city. He took me there, and I saw a man whose appearance was like bronze; he was standing in the gateway with a linen cord and a measuring rod in his hand. The man said to me, "Son of man, look with your eyes and hear with your ears and pay attention to everything I am going to show you, for that is why you have been brought here. Tell the house of Israel everything you see."
Chief among the information the man told to Ezekiel, was the dimensions of the temple. Now, in chapter 11 of the book of Revelation, the Apostle John wrote,
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
Did Ezekiel see John, measuring the temple? While both of these passages are introduced as visions, the element of time travel cannot be discounted. In 2nd Corinthians chapter 12, the Apostle Paul wrote,
I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
Now, if this was a vision, why did Paul say the man was "caught up to paradise"? Why did Paul not know whether or not this happened "in the body or apart from the body"? Could it be that a vision is God allowing our spirits to travel through time, while our bodies remain on Earth?
Ezekiel said the man he saw had an appearance "like bronze". That is not noteworthy in itself. Certainly, if Ezekiel had seen Jesus, there would have been a more emphatic description of "the man". But since John's vision occurred while on exile on the Isle of Patmos- a place with ample sunshine- it is no wonder that, if the man Ezekiel saw was the Apostle John, that he would have a bronzed appearance. If this were true, perhaps John travelled even in body to the future and back.
Now, if Ezekiel and John were both allowed to witness nearly the same future events, is there any other record of it? Maybe! It is possible that the prophet Daniel saw them both as well! In Daniel chapters 10-12, a vision was given to him. From the description of the "man" who gave Daniel the vision, it was Christ.
"On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of the finest gold around his waist. His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude. I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision;"
But Daniel later refers to 2 "others", meaning other men.
"Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?" (Daniel 12:5-6)
Now, if Daniel saw John and Ezekiel talking amongst themselves, while partaking in the vision of the future, this indicates that time travel is possible, if God allows it for His own wise purposes! And a God that could take both John and Ezekiel into the future, certainly took them back to their own time, once the vision was revealed.
Lastly, time is one of the 4 dimensions of the physical universe. I say physical, because string theory asserts there are perhaps 12 total dimensions in our universe. These would be spiritual dimensions where angels and demons dwell; in other words, Heaven and Hell. The same timeline would connect all of them. But, since God is not constrained within our 3 spatial dimensions, nor any number of spatial dimensions, He would not be constrained within any dimensions of time. For in First Kings 8:27, we read,
"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!"
Freewill does not give us superhuman powers.intro2faith said:Ok, let us say a HUMAN is falling down to Earth
Freewill doesn't give us the ability to swoop away from hitting the earth at the last second should we choose to. Gravity does not discriminate. :dead:
Therefore . . . your analogy is fatally flawed.
It makes no difference what version you use, the KJV is fine with me. That wasn't my point.Quasar1011 said:
My point is your raping the verse beyond its intended meaning to fit your theology.
The verse does not mean what you assert - not even close.
Hasan_ibn_Sabah
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Quasar1011 said:
I agree God is not constrained by anything, being the Creator of everything. I see the powers and dominions as being more a part of the physical part of the universe than the spiritual part, scriptures say that Satan is the God of this Cosmos, whereas Jesus says His Kingdom is not of this Cosmos.
What constrains the Almighty? , the human mind...we with our concepts try to fit God into those concepts, when it comes to that I agree with Wittgenstein that some things are better left unsaid.
intro2faith said:
This is a predictable cause-effect situation that is knowable. It still does not preclude God from using His free will and zapping the meteor at the last minute resulting in a different future/outcome that was possible, but not certain. The analogy is not relevant to future free will moral contingencies. The fact that your view relies on weak analogies shows that it does not have as much strength as suspected. The alternate view relies on common sense and straightforward revelation in Scripture.
intro2faith
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godrulz said:
So you're saying that God doesn't know my future any better than I do? Yikes, that's a scary thought!
intro2faith said:
I did not say that. He knows all the contingencies in my life perfectly; I do not. He knows my mind, heart, character, and circumstances better than I do. He knows every atom in my body, so may see cancer starting years before a doctor would. He may know my stocks or mutual funds are about to tank, which could affect my financial opportunities.
God is omnicompetent. His great ability, wisdom, power, love, knowledge, etc. makes Him able to creatively respond to any contingency. Sometimes eternity settles things out. He does not need to know the future nor micromanage things to providentially govern me. We can trust Him based on His character and attributes. Foreknowledge is not necessary to ensure my needs are met. A chessmaster does not have to see the outcome of a game to beat another player. Ability vs foreknowledge!
If you think He must know the future as certain rather than possible, you underestimate His ability/power/competence. Ability, not future exhaustive foreknowledge is the key to His sovereignty.
Obviously knowing everything about the past and present tells you much about the futureintro2faith said:
I don't think anyone is arguing that God can't know a lot of future events because he sees them coming. Exaustive foreknowledge is, however, a completely different thing.
Forget it introfaith. They cannot clue in that foreknowledge is not CAUSAL.
Besides, we might not know absolutely that something will happen in the future, but we can come pretty close.
We can know that a kid might have a free will choice to choose to open his/her gifts at Christmas or to leave them alone. It is not hard to guess what the free will choice will be.
Besides, we might not know absolutely that something will happen in the future, but we can come pretty close.
We can know that a kid might have a free will choice to choose to open his/her gifts at Christmas or to leave them alone. It is not hard to guess what the free will choice will be.