Does God know the future?
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I think the problem is because of providence, does God know things to come are necessary.
Some things are necessary some things are contingent.
The things that are of necessity will occur that way while things that are contingent will unfold to God's plan by contingency or proximation to the goal because God's mind and end goals can never be frustrated.
Some things are necessary some things are contingent.
The things that are of necessity will occur that way while things that are contingent will unfold to God's plan by contingency or proximation to the goal because God's mind and end goals can never be frustrated.
So God doesn't force anything on us, but works through our nature to obtain his goals. Remember that the will is appetitive. We are drawn towards something we desire.
So God will draw us towards our goals no matter which infinite ways we choose that particular path.
Mind you God will also give us the choice of following the wrong desire as well such as money or dope etc.
So God will draw us towards our goals no matter which infinite ways we choose that particular path.
Mind you God will also give us the choice of following the wrong desire as well such as money or dope etc.
Lovejoy said:
An Open future means our prayers and evangelism can change the course of history. A closed future can breed antinomianism, fatalism, and apathy. Historically, hyper-Calvinism lead to a decline in fervent prayer and persuasive evangelism/revivals. An emphasis on free will, responsibility, and potential to impact destinies led to explosive Church growth.
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Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God "predestined" us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no free will). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God's foreknowledge. See, for example, 1Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God." The terms "predestination" and "the elect" alway refer to God's knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two tyes of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.
1Pet.1:1-2 - teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.
Rom. 8:29-30 - Paul also wries that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but perservering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.
1Cor. 15:49 - Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the ressurection, when we shall bear the image of man in heaven. These are the people who are predestined to gory.
Rev. 3:5 - Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace not to glory).
Eph 1:5; 1Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that god determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our free will.
Ezek 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our free will, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God does not also predetermine certain people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace needed to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.
2 Peter 3:9 - God is forebearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentence. God's wills all to be saved., but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God's grace.
Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the father that any should perish, but he has given us free will to choose.
1Tim. 2:4, 2Pet. 3:9, James 1:13 - 14, 1 Cor. 10:13.
All these verses speak of predestination.
1Pet.1:1-2 - teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.
Rom. 8:29-30 - Paul also wries that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but perservering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.
1Cor. 15:49 - Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the ressurection, when we shall bear the image of man in heaven. These are the people who are predestined to gory.
Rev. 3:5 - Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace not to glory).
Eph 1:5; 1Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that god determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our free will.
Ezek 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our free will, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God does not also predetermine certain people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace needed to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.
2 Peter 3:9 - God is forebearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentence. God's wills all to be saved., but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God's grace.
Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the father that any should perish, but he has given us free will to choose.
1Tim. 2:4, 2Pet. 3:9, James 1:13 - 14, 1 Cor. 10:13.
All these verses speak of predestination.
A Greek word study on predestination and foreknowledge is in order (see "God's Strategy in Human History").
One must distinguish corporate election from individual predestination. God does the former, not the latter.
Catholic, Calvinistic, or Arminian presuppositions are a filter for the verses we share in common. Our preconceived ideas may cloud sound exegesis.
One must distinguish corporate election from individual predestination. God does the former, not the latter.
Catholic, Calvinistic, or Arminian presuppositions are a filter for the verses we share in common. Our preconceived ideas may cloud sound exegesis.
I simply said predestination means to know or declare God's foreknowledge in advance.
It contradicts saying God has no forknowledge of the future.
Calvanists hardly share things in common with Catholics.
Are you sure you views are not the view that is filtering?
It contradicts saying God has no forknowledge of the future.
Calvanists hardly share things in common with Catholics.
Are you sure you views are not the view that is filtering?
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Does predestination lead to foreknowledge, or does foreknowledge lead to predestination?
i.e. Does God declare something He intends to bring to pass by His ability leading to a prior knowledge (Is. 46; 48)...or...
Does God someone see and know the future, so He declares or predestines things based on foreknowledge, not ability?
The biblical view is that God predestines and foreknows some things based on His intentions and ability, while other things are open and unsettled.
i.e. Does God declare something He intends to bring to pass by His ability leading to a prior knowledge (Is. 46; 48)...or...
Does God someone see and know the future, so He declares or predestines things based on foreknowledge, not ability?
The biblical view is that God predestines and foreknows some things based on His intentions and ability, while other things are open and unsettled.
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Okay, I see you guys have been posting like crazy while I've been gone. I'm way short on time so if someone could tell me in a nutshell what I've missed, I'd be very grateful. Also, if there is a specific question or post that someone is wanting me to respond to, can you point it out or repeat the question? Otherwise, I won't be able to get back into this until sometime after work. There's too much to read and not enough time to read it!
Thanks!
Clete
Thanks!
Clete
nancy said:
Foreknowledge means God knows the future. Predestination is one way He can know the future since He decrees and brings it to pass. God brings the first and second coming of Christ to pass by His ability. He thus knows that these events will happen. He is in full control of them. He does not predestine every mundane and moral detail surrounding these events. The things He does not predestine are free choices precluding exhaustive foreknowledge. He correctly knows certainties/actualities differently than possibilities/probabilities.
God predestines that all those who come in repentant faith and trust Christ will be saved and then predestines that they be conformed to His image. He predestines that the corporate Body of Christ will rule and reign with Him. He does not predestine which individuals will be saved or not, or which believer will mature or not. Free will comes into play at the individual level.
Unlike Calvinism, God does not decree and predestine exhaustively/meticulously. Some things are predestined; some things are not (future free will moral contingencies).
An omnicompetent God does not need to predestine/decree/foreknow every detail of the universe to be sovereign. It is also apparent that His intentions/will/grace/desires can be resisted or thwarted at an individual level. The Fall, Hell, and the Holocaust are evidence of this.
You mean IF predestination is true then God would know the future.nancy said:
This is not true at all. Let's say you decide that you want to buy a car and proceed to go to the car dealership and discuss with a salesman all the things you want in a car and how much money you want to spend. Let's also say that this salesman wants you to spend a whole lot more money for the car than you have indicated that you want to spend. If, at the end of the day, you now own the car and only paid the amount which you wanted to pay for it in the beginning, did you remove the salesmens free will in order to make this happen?
No, you didn't! How is it possible that you can accomplish something without the removal of people's free will and God cannot? Could you explain that to me, because I thought that God was more powerful than you, I thought that God was wiser than we are. Am I wrong or must you concede that God is capable of getting things done which He wants done without having to remove anyone's free will?
Resting in Him,
Clete
We've already covered this. You are confusing predestination with predeterminism. I've already showed you what the word means in the Greek.
I've already told you that God's plans cannot be frustrated. So things that are necessary like Christ's second coming happen necessarily, but contingency happens by contingency, that is approximation to the goals God has for us.
The passages I pointed out already explains free will in terms of Scripture.
I think we've taken this argument as far as we can. Calvinist believe in predeterminism not predestination.
Good Luck!
I've already told you that God's plans cannot be frustrated. So things that are necessary like Christ's second coming happen necessarily, but contingency happens by contingency, that is approximation to the goals God has for us.
The passages I pointed out already explains free will in terms of Scripture.
I think we've taken this argument as far as we can. Calvinist believe in predeterminism not predestination.
Good Luck!
philosophizer
New member
If God is the Creator of the universe, how can there be any difference between "seeing" the future and "causing" it? Did He not create the future too?
You have not shown any such thing, not from what I've read. Perhaps you could point out the post where you did more than simply declare what you beleive.nancy said:
Saying it doesn't make it so Nancy. Just because you claim the predestination and predeterminism are two different thing doesn't mean they are. You don't get to remake the english language to suit your needs. Words have meaning and ideas have consequences and you can't simply talk them away. Predestination and determinism are practically synonimous in this context. And even if they weren't, Calvinism DEFINATELY teaches PREDESTINATION. Do you really think that we are all so stupid? Even if someone here doesn't know the first thing about Calvinism, all it would take is about thirty seconds of searching on the internet to find about four dozen web sites about Calvinism, all of which will tell you that God predestined everything from before time began.
Resting in Him,
Clete
philosophizer
New member
Clete said:
I agree. But if God is "seeing" the future, then it has to exist, at least to God. And if it exists, then He created it. So the question I was asking is, from God's perspective, what's the difference between "seeing" and "causing"? Is there one?
One final note. Saying God will let something come to pass is saying he will cause it to pass.
It says explicitly in Scripture that God has foreknowledge "predestination." If God knows somethings that will happen in the future, then there is no reason to believe God doesn't know everything perfectly. Knowing is not causing.
We are not going to have a full understanding of predestination as you are trying to view the way God knows with how humans know. Besides, Scripture is SUPERNATURAL revelation from God. God reveals himself to us. Natural human reason cannot fully grasp it.
It says explicitly in Scripture that God has foreknowledge "predestination." If God knows somethings that will happen in the future, then there is no reason to believe God doesn't know everything perfectly. Knowing is not causing.
We are not going to have a full understanding of predestination as you are trying to view the way God knows with how humans know. Besides, Scripture is SUPERNATURAL revelation from God. God reveals himself to us. Natural human reason cannot fully grasp it.
I see. So you're saying that if God sees the future then it exist and if it exists God must have created it and if He created it then He must have caused it. Yes! That follows! To create something is to cause it. Brilliant. So no matter how you slice it, if God knows the future, He is responsible for it and we are not.philosophizer said:
Nice! :thumb:
Resting in Him,
Clete