Does God Create Reprobates?

beloved57 · Oct 27, 2015

musterion said:
Exactl right. Christ died for all, without exception.

Invalid comment not supported by scripture!

Bright Raven · Oct 27, 2015

beloved57 said:
Yes, to damn them for their sins, they are made Vessels of Wrath and their lives are lived being fitted for destruction, according to Gods Purpose Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

John 3:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Ask Mr. Religion · Oct 27, 2015

musterion said:
Not cooperated, obeyed (2 Thess 1:8). Obeyed whom? God, Whose gift of salvation is not in any sense or degree of ourselves (Eph 2:8-9).

Yet you insist on a straw man that makes us out, even if only potentially, to boast that we have cooperated in our own salvation, while in reality we find the thought abhorrent and, in any case, Scripture totally precludes it.

But once again, all of this is simply a dodge on your part to avoid the problem of unelected reprobates being damned specifically for their unbelief, which makes God out to be a liar.

Rhetorical flimflammery.

Obey, cooperate, distinctions without a difference to provide the rationalization in hopes of escaping the plain fact that you were somehow more discerning, more wiser, more willing, than your neighbor.

You have already plainly stated you possessed the ability to choose right or wrong at the moment you so chose. The rest of your reasoning belies the actual fact you are straining unsuccessfully to avoid.

Doing something independent of the Spirit is what synergism amounts to in the end because when one ask the synergist why one person believes the gospel and not the other, the answer is never, "it is grace that made the one to differ from the other". For such an answer lands the synergist on the horns of a dilemma in explaining why he or she gets this grace and the other does not. No answer is possible for the one who thinks he or she possesses some ability to choose (or "obey") without admitting what they strive mightily to quitclaim.

Rather the plain fact is that the synergist's answer always points to some virtue (humility perhaps) that one unregenerate person has and another does not. So technically, it is not synergism but human monergism. Ultimately this theology looks to something one person does that another (the unbeliever) does not have the capacity to do. And thus the danger of synergistic theology which ultimately leads to "God, when you extended your grace to all men some did not make use of it, BUT I DID." :AMR:

No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit, and no one can believe the gospel unless God grants it. Now why do you suppose God grants you something and not your neighbor? Try to formulate a reason that escapes making God to be a debtor. There is but one answer: Considering zero perceived merit in what you would do or say, God set His preferences upon you (i.e., loved you) before you were even born from eternity.

But then to say in response that God loved all mankind in this same savingly efficacious manner is to declare Him impotent at best, a liar at worst, for not all are saved. To then go on to say, "well, not all obeyed, cooperated, etc., and God is not forcing anyone" is to say that God's saving preferences upon those that He loved before time is at the mercy of these objects of His love, to which God must repay for their obedience, cooperation, etc. God is not wringing His hands hoping for those that He has set His sights upon to come around to His way of thinking. God is not restricting His sovereignty to preserve your precious libertarian free will and thereby making Himself contingently liable to your fickle decisions.

When God decides to save someone do you honestly in your heart of hearts think you can do anything to thwart Him? I hope your answer will be "of course not". This then begs the ultimate question you and others are dancing around, "Why you, and not your neighbor?" There is but one answer to the question that maximally glorifies God: God specifically chose you and not your neighbor.

AMR

Robert Pate · Oct 28, 2015

Ask Mr. Religion said:
Rhetorical flimflammery.

Obey, cooperate, distinctions without a difference to provide the rationalization in hopes of escaping the plain fact that you were somehow more discerning, more wiser, more willing, than your neighbor.

You have already plainly stated you possessed the ability to choose right or wrong at the moment you so chose. The rest of your reasoning belies the actual fact you are straining unsuccessfully to avoid.

Doing something independent of the Spirit is what synergism amounts to in the end because when one ask the synergist why one person believes the gospel and not the other, the answer is never, "it is grace that made the one to differ from the other". For such an answer lands the synergist on the horns of a dilemma in explaining why he or she gets this grace and the other does not. No answer is possible for the one who thinks he or she possesses some ability to choose (or "obey") without admitting what they strive mightily to quitclaim.

Rather the plain fact is that the synergist's answer always points to some virtue (humility perhaps) that one unregenerate person has and another does not. So technically, it is not synergism but human monergism. Ultimately this theology looks to something one person does that another (the unbeliever) does not have the capacity to do. And thus the danger of synergistic theology which ultimately leads to "God, when you extended your grace to all men some did not make use of it, BUT I DID." :AMR:

No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit, and no one can believe the gospel unless God grants it. Now why do you suppose God grants you something and not your neighbor? Try to formulate a reason that escapes making God to be a debtor. There is but one answer: Considering zero perceived merit in what you would do or say, God set His preferences upon you (i.e., loved you) before you were even born from eternity.

But then to say in response that God loved all mankind in this same savingly efficacious manner is to declare Him impotent at best, a liar at worst, for not all are saved. To then go on to say, "well, not all obeyed, cooperated, etc., and God is not forcing anyone" is to say that God's saving preferences upon those that He loved before time is at the mercy of these objects of His love, to which God must repay for their obedience, cooperation, etc. God is not wringing His hands hoping for those that He has set His sights upon to come around to His way of thinking. God is not restricting His sovereignty to preserve your precious libertarian free will and thereby making Himself contingently liable to your fickle decisions.

When God decides to save someone do you honestly in your heart of hearts think you can do anything to thwart Him? I hope your answer will be "of course not". This then begs the ultimate question you and others are dancing around, "Why you, and not your neighbor?" There is but one answer to the question that maximally glorifies God: God specifically chose you and not your neighbor.

AMR

Jesus told the disciples to go into ALL OF THE WORLD and preach the Gospel. He didn't say go into the world and preach the Gospel to the elect. He said, "Go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" meaning to everyone.

If God so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, John 3:16. Then it makes sense that he would provide salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ. If he did not make salvation available for all he would not be just. 'Choose this day whom you will serve" The choice is ours. We can chose to be saved or we can chose not to be saved.

musterion · Oct 28, 2015

Robert Pate said:
Jesus told the disciples to go into ALL OF THE WORLD and preach the Gospel. He didn't say go into the world and preach the Gospel to the elect. He said, "Go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" meaning to everyone.

If God so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, John 3:16. Then it makes sense that he would provide salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ. If he did not make salvation available for all he would not be just. 'Choose this day whom you will serve" The choice is ours. We can chose to be saved or we can chose not to be saved.

Yeah but see, Pate, only the elect need to decide this day who they're going to serve.

Wait, no they don't. The elect have been eternally preordained to irresistibly choose God sooner or later without having any choice in the matter. So he clearly wasn't talking to the elect.

So it must be the reprobates who have to choose this day whom they're going to serve.

No, that won't work either: they will never be called and enabled to serve God, so Christ can't be talking about them.

Well, that can only mean Christ is talking to everyone, elect and reprobate alike, each of whom has the choice of choosing this day whom he will serve.

No, sorry, that won't work either. No one has the free will to choose that without God's enabling, so Christ clearly could not have meant they actually have a choice to make, as that would be a lie.

I guess this means we can just check the whole Bible if Calvinism is true because the words of Christ can't logically apply to anybody.

beloved57 · Oct 28, 2015

Robert Pate said:
Jesus told the disciples to go into ALL OF THE WORLD and preach the Gospel. He didn't say go into the world and preach the Gospel to the elect. He said, "Go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" meaning to everyone.

If God so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, John 3:16. Then it makes sense that he would provide salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ. If he did not make salvation available for all he would not be just. 'Choose this day whom you will serve" The choice is ours. We can chose to be saved or we can chose not to be saved.

Invalid comments not supported by scripture!

nikolai_42 · Oct 28, 2015

musterion said:
Yeah but see, Pate, only the elect need to decide this day who they're going to serve.

Wait, no they don't. The elect have been eternally preordained to irresistibly choose God sooner or later without having any choice in the matter. So he clearly wasn't talking to the elect.

So it must be the reprobates who have to choose this day whom they're going to serve.

No, that won't work either: they will never be called and enabled to serve God, so Christ can't be talking about them.

Well, that can only mean Christ is talking to everyone, elect and reprobate alike, each of whom has the choice of choosing this day whom he will serve.

No, sorry, that won't work either. No one has the free will to choose that without God's enabling, so Christ clearly could not have meant they actually have a choice to make, as that would be a lie.

I guess this means we can just check the whole Bible if Calvinism is true because the words of Christ can't logically apply to anybody.

This sounds kind of anachronistic - to me, at least. Or maybe anachronistic isn't the word. Confusing eternal and temporal states. Remember, Christ spoke of His sheep as His - that they would not follow another. But He also said that if one of His sheep does stray He would go after it. These sheep are sheep and that's all they've ever been -- TO HIM. So we are left with two vantage points that cannot speak of the same things the same way. One's life to God is set and fixed even before it happens. He inhabits eternity. There is no temporal unknown to Him. To man, he simply cannot make the same assertions BASED ONLY ON HIS LIMITED UNDERSTANDING. So when we have a Sovereign God making statements that speak of choice and other statements that speak of predestination, it isn't right to look at the eternal in terms of the temporal. We are forced to look at it from the temporal view, but we have to recognize that that temporality is a limitation. The eternal is the lens through which we view the temporal. And since we aren't able to do that naturally, we need to take those eternal statements God gives as (in a sense) more true than the temporal. That is, they are fuller - not in part, but complete expressions of reality. But as temporal beings, we can only properly and directly relate to uncertainty (because that is where God has placed us). But in Him, all His promises are yea and amen. They are certain even though not yet seen in time.

It seems to me that Calvinism attempts to frame things from God's perspective and Arminianism from man's.

False Prophet · Oct 28, 2015

They choose to deny God. So God gives them over to retro-bate minds, because they reject the knowledge of the truth so as to be saved; God sends over them a deluding influence, so that they will believe a lie.
But since the beginning of the world those things have been easy to understand by what God has made. So people have no excuse for the bad things they do. 21 They knew God, but they did not give glory to God or thank him. Their thinking became useless. Their foolish minds were filled with darkness. 22 They said they were wise, but they became fools. 23 They traded the glory of God who lives forever for the worship of idols made to look like earthly people, birds, animals, and snakes.

24 Because they did these things, God left them and let them go their sinful way, wanting only to do evil. As a result, they became full of sexual sin, using their bodies wrongly with each other. 25 They traded the truth of God for a lie. They worshiped and served what had been created instead of the God who created those things, who should be praised forever. Amen.
Ro 1 NCV

Robert Pate · Oct 28, 2015

musterion said:
Yeah but see, Pate, only the elect need to decide this day who they're going to serve.

Wait, no they don't. The elect have been eternally preordained to irresistibly choose God sooner or later without having any choice in the matter. So he clearly wasn't talking to the elect.

So it must be the reprobates who have to choose this day whom they're going to serve.

No, that won't work either: they will never be called and enabled to serve God, so Christ can't be talking about them.

Well, that can only mean Christ is talking to everyone, elect and reprobate alike, each of whom has the choice of choosing this day whom he will serve.

No, sorry, that won't work either. No one has the free will to choose that without God's enabling, so Christ clearly could not have meant they actually have a choice to make, as that would be a lie.

I guess this means we can just check the whole Bible if Calvinism is true because the words of Christ can't logically apply to anybody.

Yea, might as well throw the Bible in the trash.

beloved57 · Oct 28, 2015

Robert Pate said:
Yea, might as well throw the Bible in the trash.

Same goes for you!

Robert Pate · Oct 28, 2015

beloved57 said:
Same goes for you!

Calvinism makes a sham out of the Bible.

beloved57 · Oct 28, 2015

Robert Pate said:
Calvinism makes a sham out of the Bible.

As stated above Calvinism is the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ!

musterion · Oct 28, 2015

beloved57 said:
Same goes for you!

You reported me for calling you an idiot and now you say Pate is trash.

beloved57 · Oct 28, 2015

musterion said:
You reported me for calling you an idiot and now you say Pate is trash.

You are now lying on me, I never called pate trash, pate stated to someone that they may as well throw their bible in the trash, and I posted that he should also do the same throw his in the trash ! So you made a false accusation just now and should apologize !

musterion · Oct 28, 2015

Ask Mr. Religion said:
Rhetorical flimflammery.

Obey, cooperate, distinctions without a difference

Paul warns that all who do not obey the Gospel are damned (2 Thess 1:8).

Do you believe that?

Because that is ALL that I did...I obeyed it.

How does one obey it? By just believing it. Sola fide, ever heard of it?

The Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation, not whether one thinks God must give the faith through which a sinner is saved or whether one believes He's given that capacity (and responsibility!) to all, whether they believe or not.

So tell the truth: what is the reason you really think obeying the Gospel somehow amounts to helping Christ save ourselves whenever a non-Calvinist does it? Is it that you're doctrinally much closer to B57 than you want to admit: that faith in TULIP is how one knows and proves salvation, not in having believed the Gospel? Is that why I cannot recall you ever rebuking B57?

Ask Mr. Religion · Oct 28, 2015

Robert Pate said:
Jesus told the disciples to go into ALL OF THE WORLD and preach the Gospel. He didn't say go into the world and preach the Gospel to the elect. He said, "Go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" meaning to everyone.

And how do you see me disagreeing? The Commission is the means by which God's children are ordinarily brought into the Kingdom, for no one knows who the elect are, but God. Preaching the Good News is the means to which God's ends are made reality.

The rest of your post is but the same mistaken view of what world means in many places and what "It is finished" means as relates to the atonement of Our Lord.

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion · Oct 28, 2015

musterion said:
Paul warns that all who do not obey the Gospel are damned (2 Thess 1:8).

Do you believe that?

Sure I do. I also believe that before I was re-born, I possessed zero ability to obey. Do you believe that?

Likely you do not, as you have been clear to cling to some sort of ability to choose wisely so that you can actually obey. Catch that last bit? Obedience follows the will; the mind choosing. No one obeys if they do not want to obey. Obedience is not some autonomic nerve function, like breathing, requiring no actual thought. Even when forced to obey at gunpoint, the obedience springs from a will to not endure something worse. So you need to find another tactic in hopes to escape the plain fact that you chose wisely and your neighbor did not.

I have been clear about this time and again. Let me try once more. It is my position that Scripture is perspicuous in its teachings that those not born-again (i.e., the unregenerate elect or the reprobate) are haters of God and not able (have no ability) to do anything pleasing to God, for they are in darkness and choose all that they do in life according to the darkness in which they dwell. Even the dropping of a coin in the beggar's cup or walking the old lady across the road is performed by these haters of God for selfish motives.

musterion said:
Is that why I cannot recall you ever rebuking B57?

1Mind1Spirit · Oct 28, 2015

Ask Mr. Religion said:
And how do you see me disagreeing? The Commission is the means by which God's children are ordinarily brought into the Kingdom, for no one knows who the elect are, but God. Preaching the Good News is the means to which God's ends are made reality.

The rest of your post is but the same mistaken view of what world means in many places and what "It is finished" means as relates to the atonement of Our Lord.

AMR

Yes and he will rewind and do it again..... and again.........

beloved57 · Oct 29, 2015

musterion said:
Paul warns that all who do not obey the Gospel are damned (2 Thess 1:8).

Do you believe that?

Because that is ALL that I did...I obeyed it.

How does one obey it? By just believing it. Sola fide, ever heard of it?

The Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation, not whether one thinks God must give the faith through which a sinner is saved or whether one believes He's given that capacity (and responsibility!) to all, whether they believe or not.

So tell the truth: what is the reason you really think obeying the Gospel somehow amounts to helping Christ save ourselves whenever a non-Calvinist does it? Is it that you're doctrinally much closer to B57 than you want to admit: that faith in TULIP is how one knows and proves salvation, not in having believed the Gospel? Is that why I cannot recall you ever rebuking B57?

Those Christ lived and died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 even while they don't believe or obey the Gospel!

Robert Pate · Oct 29, 2015

Ask Mr. Religion said:
And how do you see me disagreeing? The Commission is the means by which God's children are ordinarily brought into the Kingdom, for no one knows who the elect are, but God. Preaching the Good News is the means to which God's ends are made reality.

The rest of your post is but the same mistaken view of what world means in many places and what "It is finished" means as relates to the atonement of Our Lord.

AMR

If Jesus said, "Go into all of the world and preach the Gospel" then the whole world must be the elect. God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4.

If God has determined that only "Some Certain Persons" will hear the Gospel and believe then you have an unjust God.

What Jesus meant when he said... "It is finished" He meant that he had provided salvation for the whole world, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Does God Create Reprobates?

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