Does God Create Reprobates?

[nikolai_42]

You have swallowed the false Calvinist doctrine that men are sinners by their own free will.

Um....I don't think that's a Calvinist teaching - nor do I believe it myself. In fact, that's a fairly Arminian belief. But they do teach that fallen man naturally loves his sin - not that he just is caught up in something he doesn't want.

The Bible teaches no such thing. Men are sinners because Adam brought sin upon humanity, Romans 5:12.

We are all born into sin. We are all sinners without works. You can no more make yourself a sinner than you can make yourself righteous.

Just as a man is a sinner without works, so is he saved without works. "For as by one man's obedience many shall be MADE righteous" Romans 5:19.

Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God has reconciled the whole world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:19 so that now, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Nothing there to seriously disagree with...makes me more certain you are importing assumptions like it seems you did requiring God to equally offer salvation to the whole world.

 

[nikolai_42]

"Obliged" is needlessly philosophical and beside the point. The truth is that He has indeed offered it to all, as proven by the fact that He damns everyone who might have accepted His grace in Christ but decides not to.

Robert was arguing God being just - and His justice requiring all men to have the same opportunity for salvation. Thus, His justice (in that setup) obligates Him to do so. The verses I quoted in Romans above show ("What if God...") show that He is under no such obligation. Even if He has, indeed, offered it to all (in some sense), there is still nothing saying the offer is equally offered to all men. For some, it may be that God simply lets them hear the offer once and never again. For others, they may have decades of repeated opportunities. If the man who hears it once is not predisposed or prepared to hear it when he does, is God unjust for not letting him really grasp the importance of it? If he has ears but cannot hear, was his opportunity the same as that of the one who has been given many "offers" with far more efficacy? If the first man was never going to hear the gospel (spiritually) without having his eyes opened first (and God never does that), what does that say about the "offer"?

That, I think, is the point. God is dealing with unseen things about us that even we can't see (much of the time, I believe). The Calvinist has simply said that unless God does the work, no one will be saved. The conversions of men like the apostle Paul and the persistent infidelity of men who have been exposed to the gospel for a lifetime I think bear that out. It comes down to God opening the ears, the eyes and the heart and bringing a man to a place where he can do nothing but trust Christ. The Calvinist says he isn't saved before that happens. The non-Calvinist says the man has to make a choice. I don't think there is much of a choice at that point. I believe that anyone brought to that conviction and full awareness of utter moral and spiritual need (depravity) when shown the reality of salvation in Christ (alone) by faith (alone) is brought to trust in Him like a man falling off a cliff trusts in his parachute. Only someone who simply doesn't know the full implications of his situation would be so foolish as not to trust Him. They are forced to the conclusion so that there really is no choice. It is not a matter of choosing. Once they "see" and "hear", they have already been brought to that place of what we see as resignation in the disciples :

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:67-70

Men naturally resist the Spirit of God. It is only by His grace that they seek Him.

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:24-29

The Jews were "seeking", but they weren't His. By His own admission, Christ's "offer" to these Jews would have been ineffectual. The offer, then, is simply for the purpose of damning some unless God cannot know who is His and who isn't.

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert was arguing God being just - and His justice requiring all men to have the same opportunity for salvation. Thus, His justice (in that setup) obligates Him to do so. The verses I quoted in Romans above show ("What if God...") show that He is under no such obligation. Even if He has, indeed, offered it to all (in some sense), there is still nothing saying the offer is equally offered to all men. For some, it may be that God simply lets them hear the offer once and never again. For others, they may have decades of repeated opportunities. If the man who hears it once is not predisposed or prepared to hear it when he does, is God unjust for not letting him really grasp the importance of it? If he has ears but cannot hear, was his opportunity the same as that of the one who has been given many "offers" with far more efficacy? If the first man was never going to hear the gospel (spiritually) without having his eyes opened first (and God never does that), what does that say about the "offer"?

That, I think, is the point. God is dealing with unseen things about us that even we can't see (much of the time, I believe). The Calvinist has simply said that unless God does the work, no one will be saved. The conversions of men like the apostle Paul and the persistent infidelity of men who have been exposed to the gospel for a lifetime I think bear that out. It comes down to God opening the ears, the eyes and the heart and bringing a man to a place where he can do nothing but trust Christ. The Calvinist says he isn't saved before that happens. The non-Calvinist says the man has to make a choice. I don't think there is much of a choice at that point. I believe that anyone brought to that conviction and full awareness of utter moral and spiritual need (depravity) when shown the reality of salvation in Christ (alone) by faith (alone) is brought to trust in Him like a man falling off a cliff trusts in his parachute. Only someone who simply doesn't know the full implications of his situation would be so foolish as not to trust Him. They are forced to the conclusion so that there really is no choice. It is not a matter of choosing. Once they "see" and "hear", they have already been brought to that place of what we see as resignation in the disciples :

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:67-70

Men naturally resist the Spirit of God. It is only by His grace that they seek Him.

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:24-29

The Jews were "seeking", but they weren't His. By His own admission, Christ's "offer" to these Jews would have been ineffectual. The offer, then, is simply for the purpose of damning some unless God cannot know who is His and who isn't.

The twelve were especially chosen by Christ to take the Gospel to the world. They were like prophets.

It is not correct teaching to say that we are in the same boat with the apostles. They were special.

All scripture is for us, but not all scripture is to us. Much of what Jesus said to the apostles was for them and not for us.

Same thing with Jesus encounter with the unbelieving Pharisees. They didn't know who he really was. Many that participated in the crucifixon of Christ were saved on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:36.

 

[musterion]

The verses I quoted in Romans above show ("What if God...") show that He is under no such obligation.

If you're referring to Romans 9, no. That's just part of Paul's sub-treatise which anticipates the obvious question any Jew or knowledgeable proselyte was certain to ask after reading the first eight chapters: "But what about Israel?"

 

[nikolai_42]

The twelve were especially chosen by Christ to take the Gospel to the world. They were like prophets.

It is not correct teaching to say that we are in the same boat with the apostles. They were special.

All scripture is for us, but not all scripture is to us. Much of what Jesus said to the apostles was for them and not for us.

You've just contradicted yourself. Is all scripture for us or not?

Same thing with Jesus encounter with the unbelieving Pharisees. They didn't know who he really was. Many that participated in the crucifixon of Christ were saved on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:36.

So we should read John 3:16 as universally applicable but John 10:25-29 as only spoken of in the context of ancient Israel?

And don't forget there's a huge camel to swallow if everyone is supposed to be the same to God but you then say Israel is elect. Even if not, you seem to be very close to espousing a dispensational creed...

 

[nikolai_42]

If you're referring to Romans 9, no. That's just part of Paul's sub-treatise which anticipates the obvious question any Jew or knowledgeable proselyte was certain to ask after reading the first eight chapters: "But what about Israel?"

I don't see Paul making that distinction in this chapter. That is, his comments are not confined to Israel (after the flesh) here.

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:22-24

And verse 6 famously says they are not all Israel that are of Israel with verse 8 defining Israel as children of the promise. That selectivity is used to illustrate the point - "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy..."

 

[beloved57]

Does God Create Reprobates?

Yes, God made some people for the purpose of being born to be destroyed as beasts 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Only their destruction is everlasting 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Thats why they were born into this world by the will of God !

 

[Shasta]

Yes, God made some people for the purpose of being born to be destroyed as beasts 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Only their destruction is everlasting 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Thats why they were born into this world by the will of God !

The word “made” used by the King James in 2 Peter 2:12 gives the false impression that God shaped and designed these people for the purpose of destroying them. However, the Greek word translated “made” is γεγεννημένα gegennenemena which means “having been born.”

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-12.htm

This is reflected in virtually all other translations, for example:

English Standard Version
But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,

New American Standard Bible
But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

So their character is a consequence of birth followed by a process of corruption. Since all men are born devoid of the Spirit of God (i.e., spiritually dead) God need not do anything to prepare us for destruction. We are already prepared. In fact, the term “creatures of instinct” means that their character is determined by unrestrained natural drives and instincts (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:7)

We also have to consider what KIND of animal Peter referring to in this analogy. The term translated "brute (or unreasoning) beasts" means a wild animal (theria) as opposed to than a domesticated one.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/2-peter/2-peter-2-12.html

Also, since Peter is primarily talking about false teachers the image would be one of a predator who was engaged killing and eating sheep. When such an animal is finally caught the only thing that would be done with them in that culture would be to destroy them.

Though the end of the road for such a person is certain destruction this does not necessarily mean the individual will not turn and repent. Paul was a persecutor of the Church and an enemy of the cross but he repented. We are all born of the flesh and "the child born of the flesh" tends to persecute the "child of promise." Nevertheless many enemies of the gospel have repented.

Before we are born of the Spirit and our lives reflect the characteristics of an enemy of God. After presenting a list of such characteristics - sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness - Paul goes on to say, “Such WERE some of YOU” (2 Corinthians 6:10-11). We too had characteristics that marked us for destruction and hopefully we have truly repented and believed in Jesus.

2 Peter 2:12 when examined closely does not serve the purpose for which you have tried to use it. It does NOT prove that men are raised in God’s slaughterhouse for the sole purpose of being destroyed, (something which somehow is supposed to glorify God). If that were the case then there would be no reason for God to weep crocodile tears over those He has predestined to be destroyed (Matthew 23:37). In fact, since the non-elect are already "fitted for destruction" that final end, or even the contemplation of it should be an occasion for rejoicing as it marks the completion of God's purpose for them. In fact, though, God does not rejoice. He acts as if He does not want it to happen. He says clearly that He would rather people turn to Him than for them to die in their sins (Ezekiel 33:11).

 

[beloved57]

The word “made” used by the King James in 2 Peter 2:12 gives the false impression that God shaped and designed these people for the purpose of destroying them. However, the Greek word translated “made” is γεγεννημένα gegennenemena which means “having been born.”

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-12.htm

This is reflected in virtually all other translations, for example:

English Standard Version
But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,

New American Standard Bible
But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

So their character is a consequence of birth followed by a process of corruption. Since all men are born devoid of the Spirit of God (i.e., spiritually dead) God need not do anything to prepare us for destruction. We are already prepared.

The term “creatures of instinct” means that their character is determined by unrestrained natural drives and instincts (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:7)

We also have to consider what KIND of animal Peter referring to in this analogy. The term translated "brute (or unreasoning) beasts" means a wild animal (theria) as opposed to than a domesticated one.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/2-peter/2-peter-2-12.html

Also, since Peter is primarily talking about false teachers the image would be one of a predator who was engaged killing and eating sheep. When such an animal is finally caught the only thing that would be done with them in that culture would be to destroy them.

Though the end of the road for such a person is certain destruction this does not necessarily the individual will not turn and repent. Paul was a persecutor of the Church and an enemy of the cross but he repented. We are all born of the flesh and "the child born of the flesh" tends to persecute the "child of promise." Nevertheless many enemies of the gospel have repented.

Before we are born of the Spirit and our lives reflect the characteristics of an enemy of God. After presenting a list of such characteristics - sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness - Paul goes on to say, “Such WERE some of YOU” (2 Corinthians 6:10-11). We too had characteristics that marked us for destruction and hopefully we have truly repented and believed in Jesus.

2 Peter 2:12 when examined closely does not serve the purpose for which you have tried to use it. It does NOT prove that men are raised in God’s slaughterhouse for the sole purpose of being destroyed, (something which somehow is supposed to glorify God). If that were the case then there would be no reason for God to weep crocodile tears over those He has predestined to be destroyed (Matthew 23:37). In fact, since the non-elect are already "fitted for destruction" that final end, or even the contemplation of it should be an occasion for rejoicing as it marks the completion of God's purpose for them. In fact, though, God does rejoice. He acts as if He does not want it to happen. He says clearly that He would rather people turn to Him than for them to die in their sins (Ezekiel 33:11).

They were born to be taken and be destroyed! Men by nature are but beast a wise man wrote Ecc 3:18 !

 

[Shasta]

They were born to be taken and be destroyed! Men by nature are but beast a wise man wrote Ecc 3:18 !

ALL men are naturally born before they are spiritually born. In that state they are sometimes compared to animals because they possess the life of the body and spirit (in common with animals) but not the eternal life of the spirit. Despite that fact, God loves us and wants us all to be saved.

Jesus went to the cross specifically so that He could offer His life to anyone who believes including the worst of sinners. The value of His sacrifice was so great that it was sufficient to purchase redemption for all of mankind. In practice, however, it is efficacious for only the minority who believe.

"we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10).

"All people" means all mankind" not just the elect. We know this because the next phrase says He is the savior ESPECIALLY (particularly or specifically) to "those who believe" Those are the people who actually believe and receive eternal life.

If your view is true then this world for most people is intended to be a holding pen where God keeps people like livestock constrained by deterministic reprobation until the time comes for them to enter His slaughterhouse and endure eternal torment. All I can say is you and your God must certainly be haters of mankind.

 

[beloved57]

ALL men are naturally born before they are spiritually born. In that state they are sometimes compared to animals because they possess the life of the body and spirit (in common with animals) but not the eternal life of the spirit. Despite that fact, God loves us and wants us all to be saved.

Jesus went to the cross specifically so that He could offer His life to anyone who believes including the worst of sinners. The value of His sacrifice was so great that it was sufficient to purchase redemption for all of mankind. In practice, however, it is efficacious for only the minority who believe.

"we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10).

"All people" means all mankind" not just the elect. We know this because the next phrase says He is the savior ESPECIALLY (particularly or specifically) to "those who believe" Those are the people who actually believe and receive eternal life.

If your view is true then this world for most people is intended to be a holding pen where God keeps people like livestock constrained by deterministic reprobation until the time comes for them to enter His slaughterhouse and endure eternal torment. All I can say is you and your God must certainly be haters of mankind.

Your problem is that you don't and can't believe the scriptures! And you are blashpeming the True God!

 

[Shasta]

Your problem is that you don't and can't believe the scriptures! And you are blashpeming the True God!

You never answer when scriptures are presented to you. Instead, you repeat your dogmas as if mere repetition were persuasive. You might as well say a series of "Hail Calvins" on your predestinarian rosary. It would be as persuasive.

In my last two posts I argued that your idea that God makes people for the sole purpose of destroying them is not only unscriptural but abominable. It is an affront to both the love and justice of God.

When you implied that God made people to be fitting recipients of judgement. I replied that 2 Peter 2:12 uses the word "born" not made. This shows that the false teachers Peter was talking about came to be the way they were (prepared for judgement) by the circumstances of their birth followed by a willful pattern of choices that led to deeper corruption. However, even this did not mean that their status was unchangeable as you assumed it was.

Second, you cited scriptures showing how man can behave as beasts. Well the world of men is in desperate condition. Fallen men (including believers before they are converted) are alienated from the life of God through sin. In his natural state men lack spiritual life but ONLY the life of God can help him transcend the conditions of his birth...but that is precisely why Jesus came (John 10:10).

I cited 1 Timothy 4:10 which declares that Christ is the savior of all men (in that He died for all) though the cross is only effectual to those who believe.

Regarding this you said nothing.

You have called me a blasphemer but it is you who have portrayed God as bringing people into existence, denying them saving grace and then pre-determining that they should go to the eternal fires of hell. According to you the majority of humanity is born for slaughter. You have twisted scriptures in such a way as to nullify God's love for mankind. God, like Allah, only loves that small part of humanity that loves Him.

 

[beloved57]

You never answer when scriptures are presented to you. Instead, you repeat your dogmas as if mere repetition were persuasive. You might as well say a series of "Hail Calvins" on your predestinarian rosary. It would be as persuasive.

In my last two posts I argued that your idea that God makes people for the sole purpose of destroying them is not only unscriptural but abominable. It is an affront to both the love and justice of God.

When you implied that God made people to be fitting recipients of judgement. I replied that 2 Peter 2:12 uses the word "born" not made. This shows that the false teachers Peter was talking about came to be the way they were (prepared for judgement) by the circumstances of their birth followed by a willful pattern of choices that led to deeper corruption. However, even this did not mean that their status was unchangeable as you assumed it was.

Second, you cited scriptures showing how man can behave as beasts. Well the world of men is in desperate condition. Fallen men (including believers before they are converted) are alienated from the life of God through sin. In his natural state men lack spiritual life but ONLY the life of God can help him transcend the conditions of his birth...but that is precisely why Jesus came (John 10:10).

I cited 1 Timothy 4:10 which declares that Christ is the savior of all men (in that He died for all) though the cross is only effectual to those who believe.

Regarding this you said nothing.

You have called me a blasphemer but it is you who have portrayed God as bringing people into existence, denying them saving grace and then pre-determining that they should go to the eternal fires of hell. According to you the majority of humanity is born for slaughter. You have twisted scriptures in such a way as to nullify God's love for mankind. God, like Allah, only loves that small part of humanity that loves Him.

You are responsible for the scriptures you quote, not me, I am not your flunky! The scripture i quote I take responsibility for them, not the scriptures you quote!

 

[daqq]

They were born to be taken and be destroyed! Men by nature are but beast a wise man wrote Ecc 3:18 !

Essentially your doctrine takes your own (first-born) vessel of spirit, that is, your own "old man" or "Esau man" nature, (with a mind of the flesh and fitted for destruction) and blames your old man nature on someone else, (a different lump of clay besides yourself). From the selfsame lump of clay come forth two vessels, (vessels of spirit) one vessel fitted for destruction and the other set for honor to the Father. And who are we to say against the Great Potter, "Why have you made me twain?" :chuckle:

 

[Truster]

REPROBATE: 1. Having lost all sense of duty; depraved. 2. Abandoned to punishment; condemned.

Scriptures concerning reprobates

"Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord has rejected them" Jeremiah 6:30.

"And even as they did not retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" Romans 1:28.

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth" 2 Timothy 3:8.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" Titus 1:16.

"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves, Know you not your selves how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:5.

"But I trust that you shall know that we are not reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:6.

"Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates" 2 Corinthians 13:7.

Statement from the "Canons of Dort" concerning reprobation. First Head article #15.

"Whom God out of his sovereign most just irreprehensible and unchangeable good pleasure, has decreed them to live in the common misery into which they have willfully plunged themselves, and not bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion, but permitting them in his just judgment to follow their own ways, at last, for the declaration of his justice, to condemn and punish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief but also for all of their other sins. And this is the decree of reprobation."

All that are born after Adam are sinners, Romans 5:12. We do not become sinners, we are born sinners, Psalm 51:5. It is not really our fault that we are sinners, its Adam and Eves fault. Sin is the natural condition of the fallen man. He is born a sinner and he dies a sinner.

In a very real sense we are all born as reprobates. Somewhere in our life some of us come to the reality that we are lost sinners in need of a savior. But not all.

God has not forsaken humanity as some are led to believe. Since the creation of the earth God's Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved, Hebrews 3:15. The call is often in the Gospel. On the day of Pentecost, they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and thousands came to know Christ as their savior, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

Does God create reprobates?

Of course not. That is not the nature and the character of God. Why would a God that gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world, create a person for the sole purpose of sending him to hell?

You might be better off to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him and his Son Jesus Christ with this false, unproven doctrine.

Men become reprobates by rejecting Christ and his Gospel. Many are religious reprobates. After awhile the Holy Spirit gives up on them and they become reprobates.

You are walking, talking, typing proof of the matter. He also gives them enough rope, in the form of religion to condemn, and hang themselves.

 

[beloved57]

Essentially your doctrine takes your own (first-born) vessel of spirit, that is, your own "old man" or "Esau man" nature, (with a mind of the flesh and fitted for destruction) and blames your old man nature on someone else, (a different lump of clay besides yourself). From the selfsame lump of clay come forth two vessels, (vessels of spirit) one vessel fitted for destruction and the other set for honor to the Father. And who are we to say against the Great Potter, "Why have you made me twain?" :chuckle:

They were made /born to be taken and be destroyed! That's scripture 2Peter 2:12 ! They never had a chance or opportunity to be saved!

 

[musterion]

I don't see Paul making that distinction in this chapter.

Okay.

 

[daqq]

They were made /born to be taken and be destroyed! That's scripture 2Peter 2:12 ! They never had a chance or opportunity to be saved!

Not every anthropos is a physical corporeal human being. Those from 2Peter 2:12 are the same from the epistle of Jude:

Jude 1:4
4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, even they who were of old time written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Despotes, (Ruler of the house) and Master of us, Messiah Yeshua.

This genos of anthropon-man-faced cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh. They are men having been WRITTEN from old time into this condemnation: they creep in unawares along side you while you are feasting in the Word so as to corrupt your doctrines. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perish in the gainsaying of Core. These are jagged rocks in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, (in the Word) feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; autumnal trees past the time of fruit bearing yet having born no fruit, TWICE DEAD, plucked up by the roots: raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, likewise prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Master comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Paul likewise speaks of these castaways but you all prefer to call them reprobates so that you may point the finger at others who are outside of yourselves, other human beings, when in reality these things concern devils and wild beasts, therion, (Daniel 7, Hosea 13, Revelation 13). Cut them off from your midst or they will kill you by and through your doctrines. The kingdom of Elohim is within you.

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes, God made some people for the purpose of being born to be destroyed as beasts 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Only their destruction is everlasting 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Thats why they were born into this world by the will of God !

You have this sick, twisted view of the nature and character of God which is held by unbelievers, NOT Christians.

It is not possible for you to be saved because of what you believe about God.

 

[beloved57]

You have this sick, twisted view of the nature and character of God which is held by unbelievers, NOT Christians.

It is not possible for you to be saved because of what you believe about God.

Your mind is enmity against God Rom 8:7-8!