Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?

Ask Mr. Religion

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Given that God is not a liar and has clearly laid out the fact of the Triune Godhead, and that it is God that is doing the saving of His children, it is impossible for there to be a person so regenerated by God that denies the Trinity. This would in effect be a house divided.

All Christians are Trinitarians.
All non-Trinitarians are not Christians.

AMR
 

CherubRam

New member
Given that God is not a liar and has clearly laid out the fact of the Triune Godhead, and that it is God that is doing the saving of His children, it is impossible for there to be a person so regenerated by God that denies the Trinity. This would in effect be a house divided.

All Christians are Trinitarians.
All non-Trinitarians are not Christians.

AMR
Let us see some scripture that supports that? Where does God say He is a Trinity. As for the word "Godhead," that is a recent man made term. It is not biblical.
 

CherubRam

New member
Those involved in Philosophy were the Gnostics, they introduced the Sunday Sabbath, Trinitarianism, Hell, Messiah worship, authority of the Pope; the titles, Father, Lord, Rabbi, Teacher, Master.

There were two different groups of Gnostic's during the first centuries AD.

The first group of Gnostic's were opposed to Christianity.
The other group of Gnostic's were not opposed, and joined Pagan notions to Christianity.

The Gnostic Christians believed in Sunday Sabbath, authority of the Pope, and Trinitarianism, while the Judaizing Christians were opposed to such things as Catholicism [Universalism.]

1 Tim 6:20
"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called."

The "oppositions of science falsely so called." is the opposition to Jewish and Pagan Gnosticism.

Science is "gnosis" in the Greek.

Philosophy and Gnosticism is the "profane and vain babblings" the Congregations had to combat.

Albert Pike, a high prophet of Freemasonry, spoke on the origin of Trinitarianism. In his secret book "Morals and Dogma" he says of the Kabbalist "Jews were the direct precursors of Gnosticism," their Kabbalist doctrine is derived from their captivity while in Babylon.

Philo of Alexandria was a Jew who played a key role in the development of the Trinitarian theory. Pike says, he was a Kabbalist "a initiate of the mysteries."

Philo introduced the idea of a trinity to the Hellenistic Jews of Alexandria.
Philo did not equate the three members of his trinity. He wrote that “the middle person of the three,” was Yahweh, the Father of the Universe, who is uncreated and unbegotten. God, the Father of the Universe was accompanied by two “body-guards”: the creative power and the royal power. God being greater than them. These ideas of Philo made a great impact on Christianity.

Trinity
In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases came from Plato, through the teachings of Valentinus. Valentinus is quoted as teaching that God is three, three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:

These men also taught three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. It was believed he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but he was discovered to have taken this from Hermes and Plato.

Valentinus (also spelled Valentinius) (c.100 - c.160) was known as a early Christian Gnostic Theologian.

It should be noted that Nag Hammadi library Sethian text such as Trimorphic Protennoia identify Gnosticism as also professing Father, Son and feminine wisdom Sophia or as Professor John D Turner denotes, God the Father, Sophia the Mother, and Logos the Son.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."

Have you ever studied about Pagan trinities during the days of Abraham?

The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine
by Cher-El L. Hagensick


http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The Origin of the Trinity.htm

This link has been tested.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Given that God is not a liar and has clearly laid out the fact of the Triune Godhead, and that it is God that is doing the saving of His children, it is impossible for there to be a person so regenerated by God that denies the Trinity. This would in effect be a house divided.

All Christians are Trinitarians.
All non-Trinitarians are not Christians.

AMR

Let us see some scripture that supports that? Where does God say He is a Trinity. As for the word "Godhead," that is a recent man made term. It is not biblical.

Q. E. D.

By my post above, a non-Trinitarian is obligated to declare all Trinitarians as non-believers as the Scripture cannot support a contradiction. Either God and His special revelation—Scripture—teaches the Godhead is Triune or the Godhead is not. So believing a lie is not believing the truth of Scripture. Those that believe (i.e., faith - knowledge, assent, trust) the truth of Scripture are Christians, those that believe anything else are not Christians.

Giving a "Christian" pass to this or that person under the guise that they are merely "confused" is effectively claiming that the God who saves and is saving has a divided house on matters essential to the faith.

AMR
 

CherubRam

New member
Q. E. D.

By my post above, a non-Trinitarian is obligated to declare all Trinitarians as non-believers as the Scripture cannot support a contradiction. Either God and His special revelation—Scripture—teaches the Godhead is Triune or the Godhead is not. So believing a lie is not believing the truth of Scripture. Those that believe (i.e., faith - knowledge, assent, trust) the truth of Scripture are Christians, those that believe anything else are not Christians.

Giving a "Christian" pass to this or that person under the guise that they are merely "confused" is effectively claiming that the God who saves and is saving has a divided house on matters essential to the faith.

AMR

I asked for proof and you came here empty handed.

Adding to scriptures and joining Paganism to God does not make a biblical truth.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
In other words, you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Why am I not surprised?

That is a very strange conclusion.

Are you saying you have to know scripture, inside and out, forward and backwards, perfectly, as perfectly as the author, God, knows scripture before you can be a Christian?

Well, that would take all the wisdom of God to know God's words perfectly through and through.

That would take more than a life time of learning, of very, very hard work to achieve that.

That is a lot of hard work to simply become a Christian.

Is your salvation dependent on the accomplishments of Jesus Christ, God's grace to you

or is your salvation dependent on your works and your works alone?

Who died for you? Did you die for your own sins?

Or did Jesus Christ die for your sins?

How many verses does a person have to know perfectly in order to become a Christian?

a. all of them

b. your favorite verses

c. none of them, they just have to do Romans 10:9 to receive salvation

do you know the difference between receiving salvation and doing what God wants you to do with it?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Luke 1:35

And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.”

Question 1: How many persons are seen in this verse?


None.

God is not a "person" per the English definition.
The Holy Spirit is not an individuated hypostasis (nor is the Son).
And the Son is yet to be born as the Incarnate Logos.

Threeness is not automatically a Trinity according to the fallacious historical formulaic.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Q. E. D.

By my post above, a non-Trinitarian is obligated to declare all Trinitarians as non-believers as the Scripture cannot support a contradiction. Either God and His special revelation—Scripture—teaches the Godhead is Triune or the Godhead is not. So believing a lie is not believing the truth of Scripture. Those that believe (i.e., faith - knowledge, assent, trust) the truth of Scripture are Christians, those that believe anything else are not Christians.

The real problem with this "analysis" is that many conceptualize the alleged "persons" as "beings" or "manifestations" and have no idea what their actual professed doctrine IS.

For most, their nominal understanding is just a short semi-descriptive sentence with a handful of English terms they redefine in their own ignorant minds. A good many are functional Tritheists or Modalists, with the occasional Arian or Unitarian/Adoptionist tossed in.

I was lost for 28 years as a professing Trinitarian, and it was because of the modern dilutions of the doctrine.

So... Since I deny the erroneous orthodox Multi-Hypostatic Uni-Phenomenal Trinity while professing all that I do... am I a non-Christian by your presented standard?

Seeing as how, in my personal experience, the vast majority of professing Protestant Trinitarians AREN'T, your standard is quite a scathing impugnment of most modern Christians' salvation.

Giving a "Christian" pass to this or that person under the guise that they are merely "confused" is effectively claiming that the God who saves and is saving has a divided house on matters essential to the faith.

AMR

So... Since so few could thoroughly recite, recount, and outline details such as fontal plenitude/innascibility, paternity/filiation, spiration/procession, and other minutiae, then they likely aren't saved.

How simple can a misunderstood profession of the Trinity be? Can someone just regurgitate a sentence including three "persons" and that's the criteria?

Or can someone examine and oppose the paradoxes of the deepest Scholastic delineations and be led of the Spirit that there are omissions and inclusions that are misplaced, etc.?

Wouldn't it be more fitting if the threshold were a bit farther back? Deity of Christ, perhaps? To insist on a Trinity that is widely minimalized, hybridized, misrepresented, and misunderstood is naive.

By that standard, I was saved when lost and now lost when saved. Unacceptable.

I'd say anyone who considers the alleged three "persons" to have eternal individuated centers of sentient volitional consciousness is a Tritheist; and that cast net gathers most professing Trinitarians.
 
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Ben Masada

New member
Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?

No, all you need is to believe that Jesus was Christ. That's what makes of a believer a Christian.
 

iamaberean

New member
The Trinity is the same God that the Jew's worshiped in the Old Testament.
Daniel

And how many scriptures do you have to mark out to come to that conclusion.

I find 1,479 scriptures where LORD and God are used, that means Jehovah God. They worshiped only one God and his name is Jehovah.

Ask a Jew and they will tell you there are many gods, but only one Jehovah.
 

Ben Masada

New member
The Oneness of Hashem.

The Oneness of Hashem.

The Trinity is the same God that the Jew's worshiped in the Old Testament.


Daniel

That's a lie with the intent to vandalize the Jewish Faith. To us, the Oneness of HaShem is absolute.

The Absolute Oneness of God

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.
 

Dan Emanuel

Active member
And how many scriptures do you have to mark out to come to that conclusion...
Plenty if your accepting the New Testament. The scriptural support for the Trinity in the Old Testament is less clear of course, which is only natural, since the Trinity had not yet become a man.
... I find 1,479 scriptures where LORD and God are used, that means Jehovah God. They worshiped only one God and his name is Jehovah.

Ask a Jew and they will tell you there are many gods, but only one Jehovah.
Jehovah God is the Trinity. The Trinity is Jehovah God. Numbers 6:24-26 KJV


Daniel
 

Dan Emanuel

Active member
That's a lie with the intent to vandalize the Jewish Faith...
Relax. Every religion with competing claim's has to call every other religions contradictory claim's a lie. If you thought it was true, you'd be a Christian. So all your saying is, "I'm not a Christian."

Unless you believe in Jesus as creature's believe in there Creator.
...To us, the Oneness of HaShem is absolute...
Same with the Trinity.
...The Absolute Oneness of God

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"...
The Trinity is absolutely unique.
...Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity...
Huge straw man since the Trinity is 1 God.
...Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.
The Trinity is not corporeal.


Daniel
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
You have to believe in Jesus.

What makes you think I don't?

Jesus says He is Son of God and Savior of the world. I believe it.

Why do you trin people add your own qualification for salvation even though Jesus did not?

It sounds more like you are putting the word into Jesus' mouth.

How arrogant of you, people.
 
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