Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?

Lon

Well-known member
John 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Who dwells in a temple then?

Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is WITHIN you."

John 4:24 "God is SPIRIT, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Luke 24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

In Luke 24:39 Christ says he is NOT a spirit.
:nono: This is you 'surmising/guessing.' I asked you to tell me what just the scripture said. Do you see what you are doing to yourself AND trying to do to me? Are you this arrogant? You are giving me and preaching to me 'your' thoughts. Do you see this?

This is not about arrogance. This is about truth and the kingdom of God. I pray we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. May we all see the truth and may God correct us of our errors. If I am wrong may God correct me.
That would be wonderful. The church has 'corrected' these.

Here, I'll even go a step further: I held to a heresy when I came to TOL about Christ and loving people corrected me concerning it. I held to Kenosis heresy without knowing it was heretical. I am well-studied and it took a bit for them to convince explain the error, but they used scripture. I prayed and listened.

I pray you will be corrected on TOL as I have been. It is important that we listen to scripture, listen to correction, and act accordingly.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
John 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Who dwells in a temple then?

The temple, tabernacle, earthly house, tent are all terms used for our body. When we are saved, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit because He dwells in us. Jesus was merely talking about his body being raised in three days. We all have a body (temple) (tent) (tabernacle) which houses our soul and spirit....who we are.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.​
 

achduke

Active member
:nono: This is you 'surmising/guessing.' I asked you to tell me what just the scripture said. Do you see what you are doing to yourself AND trying to do to me? Are you this arrogant? You are giving me and preaching to me 'your' thoughts. Do you see this?

Here is what Christ says about the temple.

Mat 23:21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.

Who dwells in the temple?

Why am I guessing or surmising?

Does not 2 plus 2 equal four?

This is logic.

Who dwells in Christ? Who does the work?

Joh 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Here is what Christ says about the temple.

Mat 23:21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.

Who dwells in the temple?

Why am I guessing or surmising?

Does not 2 plus 2 equal four?

This is logic.

Who dwells in Christ? Who does the work?

Joh 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

Then God is Christ's temple, too. And we are Christ's temple and He is our temple. :kookoo:


You are simply confused and don't want to admit it.
 

achduke

Active member
Then God is Christ's temple, too. And we are Christ's temple and He is our temple. :kookoo:


You are simply confused and don't want to admit it.

2Co 5:19 that is, that God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Is God spirit?

Does God have flesh and bones?

Is Christ spirit?

Does Christ have flesh and bones?

God dwells in Christ. He is the firstfruits. He is the temple. When you see Christ you are talking to God. They are together as one.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Why am I guessing or surmising?

Does not 2 plus 2 equal four?
I 'surmise' yes. Don't you get to check my work? What if I keep getting this answer different (wrong) than everyone else? This particular is also simplistic but there are better examples of why something is right or wrong.

For instance:
What is the missing number?
2=6
3=12
4=20
5=30
6=42
9= ?
The answer depends on if you are following patterns or using algebra. Generally, algebra is the acceptable answer because it answers most questions best. Some people come up with a clever pattern answer but it is generally an incorrect answer because it doesn't apply to needed application.


This is logic.
Both the pattern and the algebraic answer above are logical. This doesn't mean one isn't wrong.

Who dwells in Christ? Who does the work?
I already told you. GloryDaze is correct that you didn't listen.

Joh 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
You skipped a LOT of verses from chapter 2 to get to this 'logical' assumption. I'm not telling you it is illogical. I'm telling you it is wrong and you HAD to skip a LOT of verses to try and apply an unrelated one. Why? Because, for some odd reason, this is the way you and a few other Arians/Unitarians think. You are less than 1% of the religious population (Mormons are about 2%). You and I both KNOW they are wrong. You may not like majority and think you smarter or more intelligent, but I'm not finding you listen well to those trying to teach you something. I generally find those who don't listen aren't the bright ones. It is a very troubling trend among Arians/Unitarians. There is something about you guys that makes you 'wrong' but has you unable to see it. A lot of 'narrow path' scriptures seem to readily jump to your mind but if less than 1% of all Christians aren't on that road, then Christ failed. You guys are a conundrum and very cultic in mentality on that point. At some point, you have to consider that Christ didn't fail and that your severe minority (not just a minority) is incredibly cultic in thinking. Again, I hope that you will listen but it 'looks' like you might be one of the arrogant Arian/Unitarian few :(
 

Lon

Well-known member
God does not say he is a temple. Christ does say he is a temple.
And the conclusion "isn't" given in scripture. This is you 1) making up your own word problem and 2) providing the extra-biblical assumption/answer to your made-up word problem.

Where is the verse that says Jesus was indwelled by His Father OTHER than He saying He is in the Father and the Father is in Him "equivocally - equally."

It is my studied opinion, it doesn't exist. You really are an entrenched. You should have seen a light-bulb moment a long time ago when we started talking about this. You must have seen the writing on the wall. Why are you stubborn about this? You remind me of a kid who screams out in class the answer no matter what answer they have and will not let it go or believe they can possibly have been wrong...not until the teacher reads the answers from the front of the class. God will do that one day but are you really so arrogant as to not listen to people that are better at language than you? Are you really so prideful that 99.6% of the Christian populations' answer against yours carries no weight to you at all???

:idunno: Arians and Unitarians perplex me with this kind of thinking. It is incredibly ego-inflating imho.
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
Slice it, dice it any way you want.

No! The Trinity of Christianity is an after thought, speculation, conjecture.....but based on the revelation of the fact that the One God has delegated powers and authorities in at least one subordinate deity, indistinguishably unified with the will of the I AM. God the Son incarnate in the flesh on earth and lived a God revealing life as had been foreseen by the seers of old. Jesus never gave a sermon or explanation about the Trinity.

Finite man can discuss the philosophy of the Trinity, Triunity and even Triodities, but it's not really understandable in an absolute sense. We can speculate and try to envision these relationships but that's about it. The unity of the deities is a matter of faith.

In my religion Christ Michael, aka Jesus, is not the second person of the Trinity, he is a Son of the Trinity, a creation of the Father and Son. The creator Sons are the Fathers of their respective creations.

To have seen Jesus was to have seen the Father, that is the closest man can get to seeing the Father, we will pass through the Sons administration in rout to the Father after this life.
 

achduke

Active member
And the conclusion "isn't" given in scripture. This is you 1) making up your own word problem and 2) providing the extra-biblical assumption/answer to your made-up word problem.

Where is the verse that says Jesus was indwelled by His Father OTHER than He saying He is in the Father and the Father is in Him "equivocally - equally."

It is my studied opinion, it doesn't exist. You really are an entrenched. You should have seen a light-bulb moment a long time ago when we started talking about this. You must have seen the writing on the wall. Why are you stubborn about this? You remind me of a kid who screams out in class the answer no matter what answer they have and will not let it go or believe they can possibly have been wrong...not until the teacher reads the answers from the front of the class. God will do that one day but are you really so arrogant as to not listen to people that are better at language than you? Are you really so prideful that 99.6% of the Christian populations' answer against yours carries no weight to you at all???

:idunno: Arians and Unitarians perplex me with this kind of thinking. It is incredibly ego-inflating imho.

Hi Lon,

I appreciate all your answers. I see we differ and that difference will not be resolved anytime soon. Although I do not believe in the definition of the trinity what this really breaks down to is the nature of God which I believe the trinity does not answer. In any case back to the topic on hand.

"Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?" Which is really saving are you saved or do you have salvation?

I believe you do NOT have to believe the trinity to be a christian. I see most trinitarians would disagree with this. I differ in that I believe that many trinitarians and others that believe Jesus is the son of God will have salvation.
 

achduke

Active member
Read John 3:16 as it gives us proof indeed and beyond. Jesus IS God Incarnate!

Hi JPPT1974,

That is not proof. It says that God gave his only begotten Son. Was Isaac also Abraham? Abraham offered up his son.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
 

Dan Emanuel

Active member
"Because its not taught in Scripture." Its also not taught in Scripture exactly who Caesar Augustus is (Luke 2:1 KJV), though he is mentioned (Matthew 28:19 KJV, 2 Corinthians 13:14 KJV, 1 Peter 1:2 KJV), but that doesn't stop us from knowing who he is.


Daniel
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
The question is not wether the word is there or not. The question is, is the concept taught in scripture?
If the actual word or phrase is not there, then anyone anytime and anywhere can say anything at all about any "concept" whatsoever that is "seen" and thus can be "taught."
 

genuineoriginal

New member
You KNOW the church at large is, has been, and continues to be triune.
Yes.

Further, we believe scripture demands it.
That is the problem.
It is the church that demands it, not scripture.

It really doesn't look like you are championing Christ to the rest of us. It really doesn't. You look like you are championing yourself.
It would be easy to just ignore scripture and go with the flow to avoid being contentious, but I am arguing for what actually taught by scripture and what is not actually taught by scripture.

When it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity, Protestants throw out Sola Scriptura.
The question is why do you do that?

"I" (ego self-interest) am not on an Arian/Unitarian website challenging them at every opportunity. You chose to be here and fight with triune believers. Think about that. You Arians/Unitarians are in desperate need of self-introspection and humility before Christ and His Body.
What makes you assume (wrongly) that I am an Arian/Unitarian?

You are not able to see that the scripture plainly teaches that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God.
You are not able to see that the only reason people dispute the doctrine of the Trinity is because the scripture does not teach the Trinity.

The Roman Catholic Church explains where the doctrine of the Trinity comes from, and it is not the Bible.

_____
The Blessed Trinity
. . .
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together.
. . .
The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Constitution, "De fide. cath.", iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message. Through analogies and types we can form a representative concept expressive of what is revealed, but we cannot attain that fuller knowledge which supposes that the various elements of the concept are clearly grasped and their reciprocal compatibility manifest. As regards the vindication of a mystery, the office of the natural reason is solely to show that it contains no intrinsic impossibility, that any objection urged against it on Reason. "Expressions such as these are undoubtedly the score that it violates the laws of thought is invalid. More than this it cannot do.

The Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these.
. . .
The transition to the Latin theology of the Trinity was the work of St. Augustine. Western theologians have never departed from the main lines which he laid down, although in the Golden Age of Scholasticism his system was developed, its details completed, and its terminology perfected.

It received its final and classical form from St. Thomas Aquinas. But it is necessary first to indicate in what consisted the transition effected by St. Augustine. This may be summed up in three points:
  • He views the Divine Nature as prior to the Personalities. Deus is for him not God the Father, but the Trinity. This was a step of the first importance, safeguarding as it did alike the unity of God and the equality of the Persons in a manner which the Greek system could never do. As we have seen, one at least of the Greeks, Didymus, had adopted this standpoint and it is possible that Augustine may have derived this method of viewing the mystery from him. But to make it the basis for the whole treatment of the doctrine was the work of Augustine's genius.
  • He insists that every external operation of God is due to the whole Trinity, and cannot be attributed to one Person alone, save by appropriation (see HOLY GHOST). The Greek Fathers had, as we have seen, been led to affirm that the action (energeia) of the Three Persons was one, and one alone. But the doctrine of appropriation was unknown to them, and thus the value of this conclusion was obscured by a traditional theology implying the distinct activities of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
  • By indicating the analogy between the two processions within the Godhead and the internal acts of thought and will in the human mind (On the Trinity IX.3.3 and X.11.17), he became the founder of the psychological theory of the Trinity, which, with a very few exceptions, was accepted by every subsequent Latin writer.
. . .
_____​
 

genuineoriginal

New member
You are rationalizing. That means 1) "You" and 2) justifying a belief you hold by supporting it with what you want to support it with, regardless if it says what God is saying in those passages.
That is a typical method used by people that refuse to acknowledge that the scriptures do not teach the Trinity.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Yes.


That is the problem.
It is the church that demands it, not scripture.


It would be easy to just ignore scripture and go with the flow to avoid being contentious, but I am arguing for what actually taught by scripture and what is not actually taught by scripture.

When it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity, Protestants throw out Sola Scriptura.
The question is why do you do that?


What makes you assume (wrongly) that I am an Arian/Unitarian?

You are not able to see that the scripture plainly teaches that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God.
You are not able to see that the only reason people dispute the doctrine of the Trinity is because the scripture does not teach the Trinity.

The Roman Catholic Church explains where the doctrine of the Trinity comes from, and it is not the Bible.

_____
The Blessed Trinity
. . .
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together.
. . .
The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Constitution, "De fide. cath.", iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message. Through analogies and types we can form a representative concept expressive of what is revealed, but we cannot attain that fuller knowledge which supposes that the various elements of the concept are clearly grasped and their reciprocal compatibility manifest. As regards the vindication of a mystery, the office of the natural reason is solely to show that it contains no intrinsic impossibility, that any objection urged against it on Reason. "Expressions such as these are undoubtedly the score that it violates the laws of thought is invalid. More than this it cannot do.

The Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these.
. . .
The transition to the Latin theology of the Trinity was the work of St. Augustine. Western theologians have never departed from the main lines which he laid down, although in the Golden Age of Scholasticism his system was developed, its details completed, and its terminology perfected.

It received its final and classical form from St. Thomas Aquinas. But it is necessary first to indicate in what consisted the transition effected by St. Augustine. This may be summed up in three points:
  • He views the Divine Nature as prior to the Personalities. Deus is for him not God the Father, but the Trinity. This was a step of the first importance, safeguarding as it did alike the unity of God and the equality of the Persons in a manner which the Greek system could never do. As we have seen, one at least of the Greeks, Didymus, had adopted this standpoint and it is possible that Augustine may have derived this method of viewing the mystery from him. But to make it the basis for the whole treatment of the doctrine was the work of Augustine's genius.
  • He insists that every external operation of God is due to the whole Trinity, and cannot be attributed to one Person alone, save by appropriation (see HOLY GHOST). The Greek Fathers had, as we have seen, been led to affirm that the action (energeia) of the Three Persons was one, and one alone. But the doctrine of appropriation was unknown to them, and thus the value of this conclusion was obscured by a traditional theology implying the distinct activities of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
  • By indicating the analogy between the two processions within the Godhead and the internal acts of thought and will in the human mind (On the Trinity IX.3.3 and X.11.17), he became the founder of the psychological theory of the Trinity, which, with a very few exceptions, was accepted by every subsequent Latin writer.
. . .
_____​

You are not Catholic either for they do not believe in Sola Scriptura. So what does that make you since you are neither Protestant nor Catholic. What are you. I'm AOG. It is easy to say, only a denomination.
 
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