Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Dan Emanuel
Active member
No, they are not, specifically. Schism is mentioned explicitly in text 817, and then text 818 begin's with "However," indicating an exception.
Daniel
glorydaz
Well-known member
You mean this one "throne" of God and the Lamb? "His" servants shall serve HIM....not them? Who is confused? :chuckle:
Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
achduke
Active member
When you are talking to Christ you are taking to God but that does not make him a trinity? God is inside of Christ. They are both inside of the same body. Christ has submitted to the will of God.He isn't but you are the one offering the confusion. The majority of Christianity reads, understand, embraces, and accepts that Jesus is God. If you read correctly, you'd discover your verse is lifted from the context of conflicting prophecies. This is typical abuse and problem I encounter with those who do not read according to proper English and language principles. It is rather haphazard and egocentrically selective. We have a number of such on TOL
In John 14, Philip was Jewish/Arian. He did not recognize the one-ness of Jesus with His Father. Philip believed that Jesus and God were two separate beings. I believe this in the sense that John 1:1 explains it: "...was with and was God." It is a strange dichotomy for finite man, but there it is, plain as day and as clear: "...was with AND was God." Both/And. To read it 'either/or' is a great damage to language, scripture, and God. It is, in fact, a lie against this very clear verse.
In keeping with this, Jesus responded to Philip, who at the time didn't get this:
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
I do not believe you can be an Arian/Unitarian without being corrected by this.
The question again is, "Can you be a Christian if you deny Christ as God in your life?"
Do you believe Christ is the temple?
The question was do you have to believe in the trinity? My answer is no. Is God inside of and dwells with Christ. My answer is yes. They will always be one. When you see Christ you will see God inside of him. When you talk to Christ, You will be taking to the Father who is inside of him. Christ is the temple(flesh/body). God is the spirit who dwells in the temple.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested IN the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Sure do...God the Creator....the Alpha and Omega. Check out the Revelation of Jesus Christ if you want to know what he looks like now.
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Revelations 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Revelations 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
glorydaz
Well-known member
This is a prime example of the natural man trying to understand Almighty God. The verse you quote doesn't match your description.
You'd do better to simply believe what the Bible tells you. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things were created by Him. John 1:1-3 He became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1:14
achduke
Active member
The Word/Logos dwells inside of Christ. Do you deny that Jesus is the temple?
Lon
Well-known member
Yes. Brush up on heretical lists and you'll know which ones you adhere to because you adhere to several.
Lon
Well-known member
Not as you understand that, no. The incarnation is an incredibly important doctrine that we dare not play loose and fast with it. Because of that, I have a LOT of respect for those who have waded through the problems and worked very hard to create what we may acceptably believe about scripture and in this case, about the nature of Christ.
For this question, I am saying "no" to the listed heresies that pertain to Christ's nature. It would benefit us both if you looked it over but I can be specific about which heresies I think you are embracing and ask you specifically about them if you like (I have done some of that leg work and know which heresies you likely embrace so it may not be as much work for me as you reading it over).
And that we are His temple, etc. This is NOT however, a license to wax eloquent and loose. We only state what scripture states NOT our summations of "what we think that means." Whatever I tell you will be a reiteration of scripture AND trying to tie all scriptures together in a meaningful cohesive way. The list of heresies is given because each of these ideas leave out/reject portions of scripture and revelation and/or supersede them. Heresy ALWAYS amounts to men's guesses and 'logic.' You can often be 'logical' and yet be wrong. It 'looks' logically right, but is wrong. That is why half the class gets some algebra problems wrong. On this particular, these heresies are barely even registered on percentages as 'wrong' answers. That means not many of us are making those rookie mistakes. When it comes to God, 1) we must agree with those working on this and 2) that we'd better not be cocky when we come up with a bad answer. I am VERY trepadacious when proffering a doctrine different than any/everybody else. It is sad when those holding to these heresies flout them as if they are excellent or praiseworthy
I didn't say "yes" or "no" but rather warned of the danger because rewriting or editing God is extremely dangerous. I try to simply reiterate what He says as clearly as I can. I believe He clearly is God.
But your 'assumption' is that this means indwelled Christ, which is one of the listed heresies. You should read that list and at least appreciate why the rest of the church (many many of us) said that is wrong.
-Lon
achduke
Active member
Not as you understand that, no. I believe for instance, that God is the temple of God since nothing made can hold Him. The incarnation is an incredibly important doctrine that we dare not play loose and fast with it. Because of that, I have a LOT of respect for those who have waded through the problems and worked very hard to create what we may acceptably believe about scripture and in this case, about the nature of Christ.
For this question, I am saying "no" to the listed heresies that pertain to Christ's nature. It would benefit us both if you looked it over but I can be specific about which heresies I think you are embracing and ask you specifically about them if you like (I have done some of that leg work and know which heresies you likely embrace so it may not be as much work for me as you reading it over).
And that we are His temple, etc. This is NOT however, a license to wax eloquent and loose. We only state what scripture states NOT our summations of "what we think that means." Whatever I tell you will be a reiteration of scripture AND trying to tie all scriptures together in a meaningful cohesive way. The list of heresies is given because each of these ideas leave out/reject portions of scripture and revelation and/or supersede them. Heresy ALWAYS amounts to men's guesses and 'logic.' You can often be 'logical' and yet be wrong. It 'looks' logically right, but is wrong. That is why half the class gets some algebra problems wrong. On this particular, these heresies are barely even registered on percentages as 'wrong' answers. That means not many of us are making those rookie mistakes. When it comes to God, 1) we must agree with those working on this and 2) that we'd better not be cocky when we come up with a bad answer. I am VERY trepadacious when proffering a doctrine different than any/everybody else. It is sad when those holding to these heresies flout them as if they are excellent or praiseworthy
I didn't say "yes" or "no" but rather warned of the danger because rewriting or editing God is extremely dangerous. I try to simply reiterate what He says as clearly as I can. I believe He clearly is God.
But your 'assumption' is that this means indwelled Christ, which is one of the listed heresies. You should read that list and at least appreciate why the rest of the church (many many of us) said that is wrong.
-Lon
Let's make this a little more simple. Is Christ a temple? If yes then what is the purpose of a temple?
Lon
Well-known member
You are being 'simplistic' rather than expedient.
You are a temple. 2 Corinthians 5:1
As such you live in your temple AND God may dwell in your temple as well. Christ is different than you and I. He is 'incarnate' not just 'born' or created.
Take time, perhaps, to read this about Christ's incarnation (a nondenominational protestant, evangelical, fundamental organization) and note where you agree and disagree.
Lon
Well-known member
Yes. Did He specifically say He was God's Temple? Yes or No?
We'll quickly see what is true and what is made up here. Be VERY careful with your answer. If you are 'surmising' logically or filling in gaps with your reasoning and mind, we will see that quickly AND it will be you trying to elevate your thoughts rather than God's. Tell me what it does, in fact, say but I caution you to be very careful and not arrogant when it comes to the point where you start filling in gaps. That is precisely what that heresy list is written against. Careful minds listed what 'can' and 'cannot' be said about scripture and God's nature. The scripture is clear about certain things but other things are poor summations that some 'ah ha moment' rookie thought was exceptional and proffered as gospel. He/she was so enamored by the novelty of his eureka he/she didn't care and even disdained the one who told him "no." Don't be that guy. He/she is arrogant and cares more about self and what self thought he discovered than Christ and or His precious Body.
Tell me, please "who" Jesus said would raise that temple in that verse. Did you know there are scriptures that say "God" did as well?
John 2:19 Acts 13:30 Romans 10:9
achduke
Active member
John 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
Who dwells in a temple then?
This is not about arrogance. This is about truth and the kingdom of God. I pray we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. May we all see the truth and may God correct us of our errors. If I am wrong may God correct me.
Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is WITHIN you."
John 4:24 "God is SPIRIT, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Luke 24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
In Luke 24:39 Christ says he is NOT a spirit.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, that's His name. All things were made by HIM. In HIM was life. Why do you fight so hard to deny Him?
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
glorydaz
Well-known member
He is correcting you, but you won't put off your pride in your own understanding long enough to hear and heed that correction.
achduke
Active member
I do not deny him.
Luk 24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
Christ himself said he is not spirit.
achduke
Active member
How do you contest with Christ when in his own words he says he is not spirit? Is this a mis-translation?
Luke 24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
