Do you believe in predestination ?

[followHim]

Predestination is part of the gospel.
God predestined our response to Him before the beginning of time writing our
names in the Lambs book of Life.

It is not to say we did not chose along the way, but without Him choosing us
we would never be able to have sight to have even the ability to choose anything else.

It is a wonder that any person has more than a glimpse of Gods love and grace, because
we are so lost in our own world of self justification and defence of our interests.

Does free will determine sinful behaviour, ie without the ability to sin, then free
will would not be free will, and allowing this door to be open, then does this invalidate
predestination?

I think of a farmer planting seed. Some will always fail, but this failure is far outwieghed
by the successes to make the whole thing worthwhile. And if you remove the element of choice
and random chance, you create robots who can only do what they are told to do, which is not
a Kingdom based on love and choice. God bless you

 

[Lon]

And if you remove the element of choice
and random chance, you create robots who can only do what they are told to do, which is not
a Kingdom based on love and choice. God bless you

The rest I agreed with save this. Choice is not the defining point of man. Values are. As such, it isn't so much 'choosing' between two values, as simply embracing. The scriptures constantly talk, not of free will (you'll never find it in scripture) but in following one of two Masters. We are creatures made for dependence, not independence. John 15:5

Robots doing what they were made to do are not meaningless, but are created for specific purposes set by the Creator. An 'ability to reject God' is a poor definition and that's the bottom-line of freewill choice. Think about it, it is the ONLY thing God didn't put there in the first place. If we are robots, we are self-aware robots who find value and meaning in what God finds valuable and meaningful. It is fulfilling that predesigned role and Christ-likeness that gives us meaning. The only thing a Christian values in me is my Christ-likeness. Whatever else against Christ is not valued at all, therefore it is the 'robot' analogy that looks like Christ, emulating Christ, that one is arguing against. It makes no sense. We aren't cookie cutters, to some He gave teacher, others the gift of giving 1 Corinthians 12, 13, 14

"If" I or my theology is to be compared to a programmed robot, it is the best kind of robot and not at all to be shunned or avoid because it is Christ-likeness. In Him -Lon

 

[followHim]

The rest I agreed with save this. Choice is not the defining point of man. Values are. As such, it isn't so much 'choosing' between two values, as simply embracing. The scriptures constantly talk, not of free will (you'll never find it in scripture) but in following one of two Masters. We are creatures made for dependence, not independence. John 15:5

Robots doing what they were made to do are not meaningless, but are created for specific purposes set by the Creator. An 'ability to reject God' is a poor definition and that's the bottom-line of freewill choice. Think about it, it is the ONLY thing God didn't put there in the first place. If we are robots, we are self-aware robots who find value and meaning in what God finds valuable and meaningful. It is fulfilling that predesigned role and Christ-likeness that gives us meaning. The only thing a Christian values in me is my Christ-likeness. Whatever else against Christ is not valued at all, therefore it is the 'robot' analogy that looks like Christ, emulating Christ, that one is arguing against. It makes no sense. We aren't cookie cutters, to some He gave teacher, others the gift of giving 1 Corinthians 12, 13, 14

"If" I or my theology is to be compared to a programmed robot, it is the best kind of robot and not at all to be shunned or avoid because it is Christ-likeness. In Him -Lon

You many not be aware but the subject of free will is a moral, philosophical and social issue
reaching to the penal justice system, and the right of a society to imprison people and even
execute them.

In one corner there are determinists where everything is dictated by environment and our systems
of choice within us. On the other side are free will advocates which propose man can choose, and
even change the basis of this choice at will.

When talking free-will it is only the choice between x number of alternatives.
Biologically providing any creature with the ability to choose eliminates the need to predict
situations but provides a mechanism for adapting and ultimately conquering environments.

The problem faced by Adam and Eve was taking on the knowledge of good and evil without communion
with God, means we will always gravitate towards selfishness and our benefit as ultimately there
are no other reference points. God declared when Adam and Eve gained knowledge they were like Him.
So it having knowledge of morality is a God like attribute, then if man does not have the ability
to choose, why would this be corrupting and why is man guilty of sin?

Gods argument with us and calling is for us to love Him because of who He is. There is no programming
there is always continual choice. It is this choice that defines our citizenship, the confidence Christ
has in us to call us worthy of His Name.

Even Jesus had a choice. He expressed it thus

39 "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will"
Matt 26

For me within my free will, the truth drives me on to Christ because of who He is.
I do not have a choice as everything within me calls out that He is the Lord of All.
God bless you

 

[Lon]

You many not be aware but the subject of free will is a moral, philosophical and social issue
reaching to the penal justice system, and the right of a society to imprison people and even
execute them.

Yes. I was aware.

In one corner there are determinists where everything is dictated by environment and our systems
of choice within us.

Understood: Pavlov, BF Skinner, etc. - Operant Conditioning

On the other side are free will advocates which propose man can choose, and
even change the basis of this choice at will.

The difference is whether external forces shape your life in a predictable duplicate-able manner, or whether you have internal qualities that allow you to bypass external stimuli. Such is given under 'classic conditioning' under Pavlov etc. but the difference is how predictable we become. Skinner believed man was invariably predictable given outside stimuli. That too, is why we classify 'mass' behavior and thinking (often associated with lemming behavior).

When talking free-will it is only the choice between x number of alternatives.
Biologically providing any creature with the ability to choose eliminates the need to predict
situations but provides a mechanism for adapting and ultimately conquering environments.

Its an age-old debate. What makes the difference in temptation and resistance is Christ. Prior? You will do whatever your made-nature desires. You are in a vehicle of human-flesh and it'll go to the hospital whether you give consent or not because of outside stimuli beyond your control.
I do not argue we have no internal motivators, but rather concede that they are shaped predictably by outside influences.

The problem faced by Adam and Eve was taking on the knowledge of good and evil without communion
with God, means we will always gravitate towards selfishness and our benefit as ultimately there
are no other reference points. God declared when Adam and Eve gained knowledge they were like Him.
So it having knowledge of morality is a God like attribute, then if man does not have the ability
to choose, why would this be corrupting and why is man guilty of sin?

Again, this is agreed upon. My stance and statement is, sin caused this condition, not God.
So, I don't argue we don't have it, but that we were not originally supposed to have it. Eating the tree was forbidden, not a gift.

Gods argument with us and calling is for us to love Him because of who He is. There is no programming
there is always continual choice. It is this choice that defines our citizenship, the confidence Christ
has in us to call us worthy of His Name.

A couple of points where we agree and disagree:
1) Yes God worked against our condition which involves this will that desires 'other than Him' when enacting the process of Salvation.
2) I disagree He defers to it, and 3) that choice is an act of love on our parts. It is too much 'me' for it to be truly loving when coming to Christ.
4) God does use all things to work together for good, which does include the poor choices and character of sin in our lives.
5) Not in deference to freewill, but largely to deliver us 'from' it.

Even Jesus had a choice. He expressed it thus

39 "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will"
Matt 26

Did He? "Free" will would suggest He could have done either without consequence. I don't believe that could have been the case, thus without an actual choice, given His nature = No choice. His very nature was to do the will of the Father because He was one with Him. Whatever we see in the Garden, we have to ensure we are reading the context correctly and for me, the danger is either or both of us can draw false conclusions readily. Instead, I do pull that taking on your and my sin was extremely difficult and it reminds me how terrible even some of my 'lesser' evils were for Him. The topic of the Son's will vs. the Father's is more difficult theologically.

For me within my free will, the truth drives me on to Christ because of who He is.
I do not have a choice as everything within me calls out that He is the Lord of All.
God bless you

"Freewill" with no choice? :think:

 

[followHim]

Yes. I was aware.


Understood: Pavlov, BF Skinner, etc. - Operant Conditioning


The difference is whether external forces shape your life in a predictable duplicate-able manner, or whether you have internal qualities that allow you to bypass external stimuli. Such is given under 'classic conditioning' under Pavlov etc. but the difference is how predictable we become. Skinner believed man was invariably predictable given outside stimuli. That too, is why we classify 'mass' behavior and thinking (often associated with lemming behavior).


Its an age-old debate. What makes the difference in temptation and resistance is Christ. Prior? You will do whatever your made-nature desires. You are in a vehicle of human-flesh and it'll go to the hospital whether you give consent or not because of outside stimuli beyond your control.
I do not argue we have no internal motivators, but rather concede that they are shaped predictably by outside influences.


Again, this is agreed upon. My stance and statement is, sin caused this condition, not God.
So, I don't argue we don't have it, but that we were not originally supposed to have it. Eating the tree was forbidden, not a gift.


A couple of points where we agree and disagree:
1) Yes God worked against our condition which involves this will that desires 'other than Him' when enacting the process of Salvation.
2) I disagree He defers to it, and 3) that choice is an act of love on our parts. It is too much 'me' for it to be truly loving when coming to Christ.
4) God does use all things to work together for good, which does include the poor choices and character of sin in our lives.
5) Not in deference to freewill, but largely to deliver us 'from' it.

Did He? "Free" will would suggest He could have done either without consequence. I don't believe that could have been the case, thus without an actual choice, given His nature = No choice. His very nature was to do the will of the Father because He was one with Him. Whatever we see in the Garden, we have to ensure we are reading the context correctly and for me, the danger is either or both of us can draw false conclusions readily. Instead, I do pull that taking on your and my sin was extremely difficult and it reminds me how terrible even some of my 'lesser' evils were for Him. The topic of the Son's will vs. the Father's is more difficult theologically.


"Freewill" with no choice? :think:

Thank you for this. This is well thought through.

I notice you have put an interesting constraint on how one defines free will.
If free will creates two consequences one which is good or favourable, and the
other unfavourable, you declare that removes choice.

But choice can be perverse, ie. you choose the worst option because you want to.
Free will as a definition is this option. Free will allows us to construct as many
layers as we want to finally come to a decision. For me the limitation of options
does not invalidate the choice to be made, or empower the argument for determinism.

We are bounded by the world and its limitations. So I use the term free will in the
aspect of moral responsibility and where our hearts are. It is what creates guilt,
when we choose to hurt another for our own benefit.

God provided the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The argument was God was hiding something from man, because with it man could be free.
Death was not inevitable.

The choice was trust God and work it through, or choose death and take the risk of
knowing. Man chose death. Face to face with God and chosing death, suggests to me
there was no way back for Adam and Eve. And God knew this is the choice that would be
made, and that redemption through the cross was the only solution. How truly lost is
man, in history and in existence. And the real question is how and why do we live?
For selfish gain or for love and Gods ways?

Ironically our choice to search for God is God calling us, and answering. And I cannot
fathom the end to this repeat, just bow and acknowledge His is our King, the Lord of All.
God bless you

 

[JudgeRightly]

Thank you for this. This is well thought through.

I notice you have put an interesting constraint on how one defines free will.
If free will creates two consequences one which is good or favourable, and the
other unfavourable, you declare that removes choice.

But choice can be perverse, ie. you choose the worst option because you want to.
Free will as a definition is this option. Free will allows us to construct as many
layers as we want to finally come to a decision. For me the limitation of options
does not invalidate the choice to be made, or empower the argument for determinism.

We are bounded by the world and its limitations. So I use the term free will in the
aspect of moral responsibility and where our hearts are. It is what creates guilt,
when we choose to hurt another for our own benefit.

God provided the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The argument was God was hiding something from man, because with it man could be free.
Death was not inevitable.

The choice was trust God and work it through, or choose death and take the risk of
knowing. Man chose death. Face to face with God and chosing death, suggests to me
there was no way back for Adam and Eve. And God knew this is the choice that would be
made, and that redemption through the cross was the only solution. How truly lost is
man, in history and in existence. And the real question is how and why do we live?
For selfish gain or for love and Gods ways?

Ironically our choice to search for God is God calling us, and answering. And I cannot
fathom the end to this repeat, just bow and acknowledge His is our King, the Lord of All.
God bless you

Could you please not space out your posts like this. I'm not sure if you're copy/pasting from another text box or something, but whatever you're doing, it's adding a line break after every line in your post, which makes it extremely difficult to read on Tapatalk, because it spaces out each line, without any regard to you starting a new paragraph.

This is what it looks like on Tapatalk, tell me if that's easy to read.

Could you please, from now on, go through and remove the line breaks from your posts where they're not necessary, so that mobile users (and even desktop site users) don't have to deal with them?

 

[followHim]

Could you please not space out your posts like this. I'm not sure if you're copy/pasting from another text box or something, but whatever you're doing, it's adding a line break after every line in your post, which makes it extremely difficult to read on Tapatalk, because it spaces out each line, without any regard to you starting a new paragraph.

This is what it looks like on Tapatalk, tell me if that's easy to read.

Could you please, from now on, go through and remove the line breaks from your posts where they're not necessary, so that mobile users (and even desktop site users) don't have to deal with them?

I will try. Different sites respond in different ways to how you post text. Putting on ones own spaces sometimes makes it easier to read. I will have to adjust for this site, God bless you. I have noticed using these text input formatting boxes, some put in a space and a spare line at the end of every paragraph, while others do not.

 

[Lon]

Thank you for this. This is well thought through.

I notice you have put an interesting constraint on how one defines free will.
If free will creates two consequences one which is good or favourable, and the
other unfavourable, you declare that removes choice.

Spoiler

But choice can be perverse, ie. you choose the worst option because you want to.
Free will as a definition is this option. Free will allows us to construct as many
layers as we want to finally come to a decision. For me the limitation of options
does not invalidate the choice to be made, or empower the argument for determinism.

We are bounded by the world and its limitations. So I use the term free will in the
aspect of moral responsibility and where our hearts are. It is what creates guilt,
when we choose to hurt another for our own benefit.

God provided the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The argument was God was hiding something from man, because with it man could be free.
Death was not inevitable.

The choice was trust God and work it through, or choose death and take the risk of
knowing. Man chose death. Face to face with God and chosing death, suggests to me
there was no way back for Adam and Eve. And God knew this is the choice that would be
made, and that redemption through the cross was the only solution. How truly lost is
man, in history and in existence. And the real question is how and why do we live?
For selfish gain or for love and Gods ways?

Ironically our choice to search for God is God calling us, and answering. And I cannot
fathom the end to this repeat, just bow and acknowledge His is our King, the Lord of All.
God bless you

Yes, this is how I see it too. Thank you as well and thanks to you and JudgeRightly for ensuring I could read it! In Him. -Lon

 

[Pierac]

Huh? I don't know what you talking about.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

Thus why you fail... you must seek the truth... Not wait to be told what to believe!

Jesus teaches this truth from the beginning... Jesus exposed these truths in his own time! Yet you fail to see!

Stop following the teaching of men! :readthis:



Paul

 

[beloved57]

What is predestination ?

It is God’s predetermining all reasonable beings, whether angels or men, to an everlasting domain either of salvation or damnation. 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

So predestination is comprised of two aspects:

Election, which is God’s sovereign choosing some men to salvation through Christ. “And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” {Rom 9:23} “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” {Eph1:5}

Reprobation, which is God’s sovereign choosing some, both men and Angels, to destruction. There are some vessels “to dishonor.” {2 Tim 2:20} “To shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” {Rom 9:22}

 

[Nanja]

What is predestination ?

It is God’s predetermining all reasonable beings, whether angels or men, to an everlasting domain either of salvation or damnation. 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

So predestination is comprised of two aspects:

Election, which is God’s sovereign choosing some men to salvation through Christ. “And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” {Rom 9:23} “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” {Eph1:5}

Reprobation, which is God’s sovereign choosing some, both men and Angels, to destruction. There are some vessels “to dishonor.” {2 Tim 2:20} “To shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” {Rom 9:22}

Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

God:
The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. - Jeremiah 18:7-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah18:7-10&version=NKJV

 

[oatmeal]

This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:28-30


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres no word of Salvation without predestination.

The Greek word means "to mark out beforehand" in the context of foreknowledge. That is what the Greek is about, the present English meaning of the word is vague, at best

 

[beloved57]

The reason we believe is because God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Rom 8:28-30 To ensure that his people would be conformed to the image of Christ, God predestinated each one to that conformity to his Son.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[beloved57]

Predestination is the sovereign, eternal, immutable, unalterable purpose of God almighty, by which he ordained and ordered, according to his own will and good pleasure, all things that come to pass in time.

Predestination is God’s purpose.

Rom 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

2 Tim 1:9


Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[marke]

This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:28-30


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres no word of Salvation without predestination.

God calls all sinners to repentance, but only saves those who respond.

Proverbs 1

20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

 

[beloved57]

Speaker Craig Thurman wrote on predestination not being based on works or faith:

D. N. Jackson wrote a book entitled ‘The Doctrine of Divine Election, Calvinism and Arminianism Examined.’ In this book you will find this statement: ’ God has predestinated that believers shall be saved ...’ Is that a true statement? If we will compare it to the word of God the answer is no, it is not a true statement. Doss Nathan Jackson (July 14, 1895 – November 29, 1968) was a Baptist pastor from the United States who was fundamental in the founding of the North American Baptist Association (now the Baptist Missionary Association of America). To the point, the Bible nowhere says that God predestinates believers. Now this might sound a little strange to the ears at first because we know that believers are predestinated or else they would never have believed. But the statement is confusing and misleading. What folks usually mean when they make a statement like this is that God predestinates some because they have believed, and that is not true. As a matter of fact it’s a lie and here’s why. That statement takes a result or an effect of predestination and turns it into a cause for predestination. Why the very same thing is done by those who say that God foreknew or foresaw who would believe. Well, of course He foreknew them that believed or else they would not be of those that shall believe. Again, what folks usually mean by saying something to this effect is that God foreknew them that believed because God saw they would believe. However, the Bible says nothing concerning faith as the moving cause of God’s act to foreknow someone to salvation. The truth is that the foreknowledge of God is not based on whether one shall have faith in Christ. This kind of reasoning presents the absurd mental image of a tail chasing the dog rather than what we are all familiar with, which is the dog chasing his tail. It is this kind of reasoning that is applied to some very important Bible doctrines. We need to pay close attention to what the Bible teaches or else we could be turned away from its truths and into great errors by what appears to be to us only seemingly small, insignificant details. So, what does the Bible teach about predestination? The Bible says that God predestinated those which he foreknew. Read it for yourselves in Ro 8:29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

First, I’d like to point out that the objective case pronoun ‘whom’ refers to someone, not something. God foreknew someone. In other words God cast His special forethought upon a certain person. And, second, notice here that predestination is applied to those that God foreknew. Nothing here says that predestination was because one was a believer or because of faith. Referring once again to the Scriptures which is the only source for deriving the faith of Christ, we find predestination applied to those which God elects. In Eph.1.3-5 it is written: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Like we read in Romans chapter 8 predestination is applied to those which God chose (elected) before the foundation of the world. To be chosen by God before the foundation of the world means that before there was anything of this present age founded (this refers to the whole universe) God alone chose to save a people for His name’s sake. So what have we gleaned from the word of God so far? We have gleaned that God predestinated those upon whom he set His eternal thought and upon whom He acted with an eternal act ... to save. The foreknowledge of God and His election of grace have nothing to do with any good or evil that the person known or chosen will do. NOTHING. Now, there’s no question that God knew from eternity all the good and evil every person would ever do throughout all of human history. But that knowledge is not foreknowledge. It is omniscience. So the acts of men are excluded from the issue of God’s foreknowledge of some to salvation. We just read in the Ephesian text that God’s election of grace was that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Therefore election assumes holiness and blamelessness are lacking in those elected unto salvation. Essentially the same idea is stated Ro.9.11: For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth … Election isn’t determined by the elected but by the Elector.

 

[marke]

Speaker Craig Thurman wrote on predestination not being based on works or faith:

Salvation and condemnation are not based upon works but on the sinner's response to the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, which has nothing to do with works. Why do sinners go to hell, because God determined before the foundation of the world that He wanted them to go there with no hope of reconciling with God on earth? No, Sinners consign themselves to hell by rejecting the Light that God gives to every sinner born into the world.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 3

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 

[Idolater]

It's an (informal) proof by contradiction. If God knows all, He could tell me what I will choose between A and B. He tells me A, but I could still choose B.

Let me try this.

Imagine Alexandra has complete power over the circumstances of Barry. Imagine that Barry is an 'experimental' personality, loves to try new things, an 'early adopter' and adventurous. Now consider that Alexandra provides Barry with the circumstances that make experimenting easy for him to do. If he wishes to experiment, then he is completely free to do it.

Now say that Alexandra promises Barry that he will when she gives him the chance, experiment.

Barry decides that under these circumstances, that he will not experiment!

That is not what happened when the Lord Jesus promised Peter that he would deny Him three times before dawn. Was Peter free to choose otherwise? Was Barry? Alexandra had made his conditions very tempting! But Peter's conditions were kind of working against him. It wasn't like he was just volunteering information, he was interrogated.

 

[Stripe]

Let me try this.

Imagine Alexandra has complete power over the circumstances of Barry. Imagine that Barry is an 'experimental' personality, loves to try new things, an 'early adopter' and adventurous. Now consider that Alexandra provides Barry with the circumstances that make experimenting easy for him to do. If he wishes to experiment, then he is completely free to do it.

Now say that Alexandra promises Barry that he will when she gives him the chance, experiment.

Barry decides that under these circumstances, that he will not experiment!

That is not what happened when the Lord Jesus promised Peter that he would deny Him three times before dawn. Was Peter free to choose otherwise? Was Barry? Alexandra had made his conditions very tempting! But Peter's conditions were kind of working against him. It wasn't like he was just volunteering information, he was interrogated.

I can't remember what we might have disagreed on, but I can't argue with this.