The early church had a pre-theoretical, experiential embracing of the triune God. They worshipped Jesus as God, considered the Holy Spirit God/personal, affirmed monotheism, etc. The revelation was progressive from the OT and the nuanced understanding, like other doctrines, growing over time under the Spirit's leading and out of necessity in response to later heretical attacks like Oneness and Arianism. As AMR points out, there were many doctrine of God, Christology, incarnation heresies already dealt with. Most modern ones are rehashes with new twists that fall to the same refutations.
Discussion thread for AMR and God's Truth Trinity Debate.
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The early church had a pre-theoretical, experiential embracing of the triune God. They worshipped Jesus as God, considered the Holy Spirit God/personal, affirmed monotheism, etc. The revelation was progressive from the OT and the nuanced understanding, like other doctrines, growing over time under the Spirit's leading and out of necessity in response to later heretical attacks like Oneness and Arianism. As AMR points out, there were many doctrine of God, Christology, incarnation heresies already dealt with. Most modern ones are rehashes with new twists that fall to the same refutations.
God's Truth
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The trinity doctrine came from the Catholics. That should tell you to question it.
God's Truth
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You speak a lot of nothing.
Brother Vinny
Active member
The New Testament canon came later from the same Catholics, but you seem to have no problem citing it as authority.
God's Truth
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Jesus was glorified with his Spiritual body in God's presence.
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Your wife's deceased uncle is a spirit; he does not yet have his spiritual body.
The last point AMR made was that it is unexplainable in the sense that we need revelation vs raw reason (same applies to many other truths about God). It also means that the finite cannot exhaustively grasp the infinite. It is not a mystery (no revelation) and we can say much truth about the triune understanding and defend its parameters. The same can be said about the existence of God that we accept. It is unexplainable, but we accept that He is uncreated Creator, contrary to reason, but true because of revelation that is reality. Before the statement you isolate out of context, he gave much detail about the trinity, but you told him to quit giving evidence?!
You are not reasonable and I think you should be put out of your misery on this debate because there are better champions of your general view (David Bernard is the guy to engage academically, not GT; likewise Anthony Buzzard is the credible guy for Unitarianism, not two bit guys here like oatmeal).
Brother Vinny
Active member
But when he gets his spiritual body, will it be legless?
You basically moved the timing of the issue while dodging the meat of the question. Nice work.
We have answered this over and over by pointing out nature vs person. You want to muzzle us because you do not understand essence/nature, despite my simple explanations to help you understand. AMR is defending it, but you are too clueless to realize it. Like JWs, you think if we say Jesus is God, then we are saying the Father is God. They don't get this because it is not true (but your false view). The one God (spirit) is not unipersonal, but triune (not tritheistic). The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. This does not mean the Father is the Son since nature and personal distinction are valid truths about God that you reject.
Those who reject trinity and Deity of Christ end up with nonsensical exegesis. If you read former Oneness people who used to use your arguments who are now trinitarian, you would see that there is more to this than you think. They now argue more strongly for orthodoxy and realize they were misled before (same when JWs, Mormons, Muslims, Moonies, etc. come to see biblical truth vs the lie).
JosephR
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Seems just technical about the spirit form of Jesus after the death and before the accession, Not about the trinity,,about the scars tho, that was before he went to heaven right? He went to Sheol, then talked with disciples, then went to heaven?
So I wouldn't think he had his glorified body when he showed the scars?
But all this is again I say highly technical.
So I wouldn't think he had his glorified body when he showed the scars?
But all this is again I say highly technical.
God's Truth
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Many think the Catholics determined what books were to be included in the Bible, because they over the centuries publicly listed the books that they used. They gave personal statements about the books, but they were only commenting on the books and letters that the first Christians used from the beginning. They had only acknowledged those books early Christian communities already accepted as scripture.
Official canonization of the New Testament scriptures came about because of heresies Gnostics and other sects spread. The first Christians accepted as scripture New Testament teachings by letter and books right from the beginning. In 1 Timothy 5:18 Paul joins a New Testament scripture (Luke 10:7) to an Old Testament scripture (Deuteronomy 25:4) and calls them both scripture. In addition, we can see in 2 Peter 3:15-16 Peter recognizes what Paul writes as scripture.
This is also ignorance of history of dogma, church history, Scripture. The view predates Catholics, for sure (and Constantine).
Your credibility decreases by the minute. You are as ignorant as JWs on this subject (if you ever saw there anti-trinity booklet, you would realize this...they quit publishing it because counter-cult ministries decimated their arguments, ignorance, shoddy scholarship, dishonesty quoting credible scholars wrongly, etc.).
I smell a fish...
There are points here that you need to hear. You cannot refute them, so you wave your hand to dismiss them. AMR will school you, but you will not realize it.
Canonicity, history of dogma, textual criticism, etc. are not as simplistic as you think.
Why do you refuse to tell us what group or church or writer you identify with? If we wanted to become believers in Christ and attend a local church or fellowship with the truth, where would we go?
If it is just you, Jesus, and the Bible, we have heard that before by endless nut jobs who are misled and misleading.
God's Truth
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Move on GR. You admit your beliefs cannot be explained. Again, move on. You are only here to be insulting.
God's Truth
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You are smelling yourself.
Brother Vinny
Active member
Yeah, that's all fine and dandy, heard it before, but you cannot find that interlocking web of support for all of the New Testament books. For starters, none of the Gospels have the names of their supposed authors inscribed therein--we have to take it on faith that the oral traditions later recorded in post-apostolic writings got it right as to their authorship. Also in circulation at the time were writings attributed to Peter, Thomas, and Paul that we only have from the then-contemporary Church that were rejected as spurious--we have to trust they got that call right. Then there are some writings that were kept in that were subjects of some dispute--Hebrews and the Revelation of John among them. We have to trust the Church made the right call. As much as I'd like there to be a God-authored Table of Contents of the New Testament, there simply isn't, unless you trust the decision of the Body of Christ, which decided before forming the Canon that God is a Trinity.
My beliefs can and have been explained. The only thing true for both of us is that we cannot understand God exhaustively, but we can know much revealed truth about Him.
God's Truth
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I have not done what you say.
Do you really think a saved person will be raised legless?
Brother Vinny
Active member
Did the glorified Jesus have a gaping wound where a Roman soldier pierced His human body?
God's Truth
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Jesus is God, and since he is God, he is also the Father. For there is only ONE GOD, and He is the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Your trinity doctrine says there is One God the Father, and another God Jesus Christ. That is error.
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