Discussion thread for AMR and God's Truth Trinity Debate.

[JosephR]

If GOD existed 'within' something before He created, then that something logically would be greater than He and would necessarily be infinite, which would reduce Him to be less than He really is. There can only be one infinite. Infinite is all of it....whatever 'it' is. Only GOD is infinite being and His immensity prohibits His total containment in anything......except in the current immanent manner which is beyond our finite understanding.

I say there was only GOD existing in Himself before He created the heavens and the earth. He created the highest heaven as a 'place' to dwell in His 'manifest' Glory, within the created universe. The LORD Jesus is presently in that place.
Before creation there was only GOD. Then He created the material universe and everything in it including the angels.

Agree 100 percent... I just meant a place besides the physical universe but still a place He made,, thank you for putting it in a way I was trying too.

 

[JosephR]

Then He created the material universe and everything in it including the angels..

But I dont think angels are part of the physical.

 

[steko]

His Spiritual body is NOT the same physical body that walked on earth. Jesus walked on earth in a human body.

Jesus is still human. He came to redeem that which was lost in Adam and bring it up to a higher place than it was originally, not to anihilate it and start over with something entirely different.
The same physical/spiritual man Jesus is coming back just as He left.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

When we have our new bodies at the resurrection, we will be given a body like his.

Yes, indeed!

If our bodies will be exactly as they are now, then we would not be told that what we will be is not known.

I never said that our resurrected bodies will be exactly like they are now. They will be restored and glorified.....receiving new qualities from heaven.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

This mortal body shall put on an immortal quality.

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Yep!

There are three, and the three are all the same God.

I agree, but........three what?

 

[God's Truth]

If GOD existed 'within' something before He created, then that something logically would be greater than He and would necessarily be infinite, which would reduce Him to be less than He really is. There can only be one infinite. Infinite is all of it....whatever 'it' is. Only GOD is infinite being and His immensity prohibits His total containment in anything......except in the current immanent manner which is beyond our finite understanding.

I say there was only GOD existing in Himself before He created the heavens and the earth. He created the highest heaven as a 'place' to dwell in His 'manifest' Glory, within the created universe. The LORD Jesus is presently in that place.
Before creation there was only GOD. Then He created the material universe and everything in it including the angels.

The scriptures say that God created everything through Jesus.

God made Himself a Spiritual body before He made anything. This Spiritual body is of the Man Jesus. Jesus is the visible of the invisible God.

God made the plan for salvation to be through Jesus before anything was made.

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Acts 2:23 NIV; 1 Pet 1:20 NIV.

 

[steko]

But I dont think angels are part of the physical.

This begs the question as to just what the 'spiritual' actually is.

I don't think we really know...... yet.

In scripture, the word 'spirit' equals 'wind, breath, etc' which are analogical terms. It means that which is 'spirit' is 'like' wind and breath, in that Spirit is invisible yet is an affecting cause into the physical world.
'ruach' and 'pneuma' are analogical but they really don't tell us what the 'Spiritual' actually is. Some have used the term 'substance' to say that everything, including GOD, is a distinct 'something'.
If everything except GOD is created being, and that which is created has substance of some sort, could that which is 'spirit' be simply more purified, rarified, higher form of substance?
We have a lot of assumptions of what spiritual existence actually means. I'm not claiming to know what exactly 'spirit' is, but just putting forth some questions about it and that I think that a lot that is said about it is based on unsupported presuppositions.

I am affirming that 'spiritual' does not necessarily exclude the 'physical' in Paul's explanation of the resurrected body. It does exclude mortality and corruption, but not the physical or material.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus is still human.

Jesus is not still human. Jesus is God with a Spiritual body.

He came to redeem that which was lost in Adam and bring it up to a higher place than it was originally, not to anihilate it and start over with something entirely different.

The plan for salvation through Jesus was made before the world was made. Jesus did not just come because Adam messed up.

The same physical/spiritual man Jesus is coming back just as He left.

He is coming back as he left means he is coming in the sky.

I never said that our resurrected bodies will be exactly like they are now. They will be restored and glorified.....receiving new qualities from heaven.

You said Jesus has the same body in heaven now, as he had when he was on earth. If that were so, then we would not be told that we will be as he is when he comes, and we do not know yet what we will be.

I agree, but........three what?

God the Father.
Jesus Christ the Son.
The Holy Spirit.

 

[steko]

The scriptures say that God created everything through Jesus.

Colossians 1 says that He created all things through the Son.
This give rise to the idea of the eternal generation of the Son, first elaborated upon by Origen.
We know that all things were created through the 'Word' which was with GOD and is GOD. This 'Word' which is GOD is not called by the name Jesus until this GOD person adds humanity to Himself in the virgin conception.

God made Himself a Spiritual body before He made anything.

You've asserted this before. Show me where you get this in scripture.

This Spiritual body is of the Man Jesus.

The 'Word' which is GOD, became flesh and dwelt among us.
This took place first at the virgin conception.
'Man' is Adam. The 'Word' was not Adam/man before the incarnation.

Jesus is the visible of the invisible God.

Yes, indeed!

God made the plan for salvation to be through Jesus before anything was made.

Yes, indeed!

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Acts 2:23 NIV; 1 Pet 1:20 NIV.

I always agree with scripture.
I don't always agree with your interpretation of it.

 

[God's Truth]

Colossians 1 says that He created all things through the Son.
This give rise to the idea of the eternal generation of the Son, first elaborated upon by Origen.

Please do not bring in other doctrines.

We know that all things were created through the 'Word' which was with GOD and is GOD. This 'Word' which is GOD is not called by the name Jesus until this GOD person adds humanity to Himself in the virgin conception.

That does not change the fact that Jesus, who is God in the flesh, existed with God before coming to earth.
The scriptures say that God is invisible, and lives in unapproachable light.

However, read what the scriptures also say…for this is about God with a body…and this is Jesus:
Leviticus 26:11, Leviticus 26:30, Isaiah 42:1, Zechariah 11:8, Matthew 12:18, Hebrews 10:38.

These scriptures speak of God having a soul…a soul is a body with a spirit. If these scriptures are not about Jesus, and if Jesus did not exist in a Spiritual body, then how is God who lives in unapproachable light that no one has seen have a body?

1 Timothy 6:16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

You've asserted this before. Show me where you get this in scripture.

I have shown you the scriptures where I get my beliefs.
Do I have to repost them for you? Can you go find it in a post I have already written?

The 'Word' which is GOD, became flesh and dwelt among us.
This took place first at the virgin conception.
'Man' is Adam. The 'Word' was not Adam/man before the incarnation.

The Word of God is Jesus…God in a physical body.

 

[steko]

Jesus is not still human. Jesus is God with a Spiritual body.

Jesus is theanthropos, the GOD/man. GOD and humanity are redeemed and united in Christ Jesus. This is basic Christianity.

The plan for salvation through Jesus was made before the world was made. Jesus did not just come because Adam messed up.

Jesus wouldn't have needed to come if Adam hadn't sinned. GOD knew that Adam would sin, thus.......the plan.

He is coming back as he left means he is coming in the sky.

He's coming with clouds and in that day, His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives and the Mount will be split in two.
The GOD/man's feet.

You said Jesus has the same body in heaven now, as he had when he was on earth.

Same body, but..........upgraded.

If that were so, then we would not be told that we will be as he is when he comes, and we do not know yet what we will be.

His body has been glorified. We don't know entirely what that means, but we know that His body is profoundly different than it was before the resurrection and ascension. It doesn't mean that He is no longer man or that His resurrection body was annihilated.

We don't know what the qualities of a glorified body fully entail. For that reason......when He appears we know that we will be like Him, but we don't know what we will be. We are assured by scripture that true believers look forward to the physical resurrection of this body and that it will be 'changed'. The word 'changed' in 1st Corinthians 15 is 'allaso' which means 'altered'. It doesn't mean that the mortal body is erased and that a totally different body is created. It means that this mortal body will be altered and be given immortality and heavenly qualities that we do not yet understand.

God the Father.
Jesus Christ the Son.
The Holy Spirit.

Yep! One GOD in three persons.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus is theanthropos, the GOD/man. GOD and humanity are redeemed and united in Christ Jesus. This is basic Christianity.

The plan for salvation through Jesus was made before the world was made. Jesus did not just come because Adam messed up.

Jesus wouldn't have needed to come if Adam hadn't sinned. GOD knew that Adam would sin, thus.......the plan.

You cannot say that because it is off…you cannot say Jesus wouldn’t have needed to come if…

He's coming with clouds and in that day, His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives and the Mount will be split in two.
The GOD/man's feet.

Jesus is not going to live on this earth in a human body again.
Do these scriptures sound as if Jesus is coming again to live with us on this earth?
Micah 1:3
Look! The LORD is coming from his dwelling place; he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth.

Micah 1:4
The mountains melt beneath him and the valleys split apart, like wax before the fire, like water rushing down a slope.

Same body, but..........upgraded.

Jesus is God in a Spiritual body. Jesus can appear to us as Jesus the human, and like this:
Revelation 1:14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

His body has been glorified. We don't know entirely what that means, but we know that His body is profoundly different than it was before the resurrection and ascension. It doesn't mean that He is no longer man or that His resurrection body was annihilated.

We don't know what the qualities of a glorified body fully entail. For that reason......when He appears we know that we will be like Him, but we don't know what we will be. We are assured by scripture that true believers look forward to the physical resurrection of this body and that it will be 'changed'. The word 'changed' in 1st Corinthians 15 is 'allaso' which means 'altered'. It doesn't mean that the mortal body is erased and that a totally different body is created. It means that this mortal body will be altered and be given immortality and heavenly qualities that we do not yet understand.

Well, that is an improvement to what you had been saying.

Yep! One GOD in three persons.

Since Jesus is God, then he is God the Father, and the Holy Spirit.
There are three, and the three are One and the same.

 

[steko]

You cannot say that because it is off…you cannot say Jesus wouldn’t have needed to come if…

There would be no need of salvation if there was no fall. :dizzy:

Jesus is not going to live on this earth in a human body again.

Yes, He will. He is coming to take His glorious throne.....the throne of David.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Do these scriptures sound as if Jesus is coming again to live with us on this earth?
Micah 1:3
Look! The LORD is coming from his dwelling place; he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth.

Micah 1:4
The mountains melt beneath him and the valleys split apart, like wax before the fire, like water rushing down a slope.

Those don't necessarily but there are plenty of others that do.

Jesus is God in a Spiritual body. Jesus can appear to us as Jesus the human, and like this:
Revelation 1:14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

Jesus is GOD and humanity combined. That's the point. He came to redeem humanity not destroy it.

Well, that is an improvement to what you had been saying.

I haven't said any different.

Since Jesus is God, then he is God the Father, and the Holy Spirit.
There are three, and the three are One and the same.

Then since I'm a man then I must be my own father.


There is one(echad-unity with multiplicity) Being which is YHVH.
There are three persons within the unity and they are one YHVH.
The Father is YHVH.
The Son is YHVH.
The Holy Spirit is YHVH.

"We worship GOD in Trinity and Trinity in Unity,
neither dividing the essence,
nor confounding the persons."

You, on the other-hand, confound the persons!

 

[godrulz]

The trinitarian view is the biblical, historical, orthodox view.

GT has a form of Oneness/modalism despite denying it.

I think Oneness can still be Christian, but AMR thinks this is not the case.

I know Arianism (JW, Unitarian) that denies the Deity of Christ (unlike Oneness) is outside of Christianity into cultic territory.

Since salvation is in the name of Jesus, people were saved in the OT without understanding trinity, most Christians cannot articulate and defend trinity views, etc., I would not put modalism in the same category as Arianism.

Having said that, trinity is important, beautiful, powerful relational truth/sound doctrine and should be defended and proclaimed as AMR is doing.

GT's view of the doctrine of God, incarnation, Christology is flawed and indefensible, but I likely consider him a fellow believer with AMR.

GT also seems to be confusing OT theophanies/Christophanies with the different truth about incarnation/humiliation/kenosis.

God is one spirit nature/substance/being/essence (ontology/metaphysics) with 3 personal distinctions who are co-eternal, co-equal, co-essential. This is not 3 gods nor a 3 headed god (straw man caricature argument).

Jesus is one person with two natures, fully Deity, fully humanity.

 

[God's Truth]

There would be no need of salvation if there was no fall.

Why say such a thing? God made the plan for salvation before He made anything.
If there were no fall, then we would not know good from evil.

Yes, He will. He is coming to take His glorious throne.....the throne of David.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

This is about the great white throne judgment. This is about the end of this world.

"And the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.’" Luke 1:30-33

"that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all." Ephesians 1:20-23

Did you read that? Jesus is seated far above ALL RULE AND AUTHORITY AND POWER AND DOMINION, AND ABOVE EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED…

I haven't said any different.

You sure have. You have been saying Jesus had the same earthly body he had on earth.

Then since I'm a man then I must be my own father.

This is not about you.

There is one(echad-unity with multiplicity) Being which is YHVH.
There are three persons within the unity and they are one YHVH.
The Father is YHVH.
The Son is YHVH.
The Holy Spirit is YHVH.

"We worship GOD in Trinity and Trinity in Unity,
neither dividing the essence,

Please do not say “essence”. Is there a scripture that says what you said?

nor confounding the persons."

You, on the other-hand, confound the persons!

You are leaving out what your doctrine teachings, how convenient of you.

You beliefs say Jesus is God but not the Father who is God; and, Jesus is God but not the Holy Spirit who is God.

You have not spoken about this. You need to explain your beliefs now. It is long enough of your speaking around it.

 

[godrulz]

AMR: I am not sure about your guilt by association with Pinnock, etc. and Mormonism. Mormons are tritheistic polytheists, while Pinnock, Boyd, Sanders, etc. are fully trinitarian/triunity and against tritheism. Pinnock went too far speculating about a more physical location/theophany-like issue, but he was not crossing into Mormonism.

GT is strictly monotheistic/Oneness, not tritheistic. His speculations on pre-existent glorified body (odd?!) are not tantamount to LDS views overall as wrong as they are.

As well, not every single thing held by pseudo-Christian cults or Christian sects or Catholics (trinitarian) is wrong. GT is not representing a particular group, so it is not surprising he is all over the map.

In addition to dealing with GT, our time, energy, expertise should be focused on groups that have millions of lost souls who deny the Deity of Christ in particular (JW, Mormon, Islam, etc.). Oneness is an unfortunate, divisive, confusing issue (especially on mission field) and needs to be addressed, but in perspective. They are wrong to try to convert trinitarians to their narrow view, but they would be better off focusing on non-Christians, not fellow believers (I know you disagree, but if articulating the trinity is a salvific issue, many of those you consider to be believers will not make it; as well, there are trinitarian Catholics who are not regenerate...salvation is by grace through faith, not theological perfection...though we agree that there are salvific/essential vs peripheral issues).

 

[God's Truth]

The trinitarian view is the biblical, historical, orthodox view.

GT has a form of Oneness/modalism despite denying it.

I think Oneness can still be Christian, but AMR thinks this is not the case.

I know Arianism (JW, Unitarian) that denies the Deity of Christ (unlike Oneness) is outside of Christianity into cultic territory.

Since salvation is in the name of Jesus, people were saved in the OT without understanding trinity, most Christians cannot articulate and defend trinity views, etc., I would not put modalism in the same category as Arianism.

Having said that, trinity is important, beautiful, powerful relational truth/sound doctrine and should be defended and proclaimed as AMR is doing.

GT's view of the doctrine of God, incarnation, Christology is flawed and indefensible, but I likely consider him a fellow believer with AMR.

GT also seems to be confusing OT theophanies/Christophanies with the different truth about incarnation/humiliation/kenosis.

God is one spirit nature/substance/being/essence (ontology/metaphysics) with 3 personal distinctions who are co-eternal, co-equal, co-essential. This is not 3 gods nor a 3 headed god (straw man caricature argument).

Jesus is one person with two natures, fully Deity, fully humanity.

All you have done here is give your opinion. You have not disproved anything I have said. You have not proved anything that you said.

However, I am glad that you are not here to condemn me.

 

[God's Truth]

AMR: I am not sure about your guilt by association with Pinnock, etc. and Mormonism. Mormons are tritheistic polytheists, while Pinnock, Boyd, Sanders, etc. are fully trinitarian/triunity and against tritheism. Pinnock went too far speculating about a more physical location/theophany-like issue, but he was not crossing into Mormonism.

GT is strictly monotheistic/Oneness, not tritheistic. His speculations on pre-existent glorified body (odd?!) are not tantamount to LDS views overall as wrong as they are.

As well, not every single thing held by pseudo-Christian cults or Christian sects or Catholics (trinitarian) is wrong. GT is not representing a particular group, so it is not surprising he is all over the map.

In addition to dealing with GT, our time, energy, expertise should be focused on groups that have millions of lost souls who deny the Deity of Christ in particular (JW, Mormon, Islam, etc.). Oneness is an unfortunate, divisive, confusing issue (especially on mission field) and needs to be addressed, but in perspective. They are wrong to try to convert trinitarians to their narrow view, but they would be better off focusing on non-Christians, not fellow believers (I know you disagree, but if articulating the trinity is a salvific issue, many of those you consider to be believers will not make it; as well, there are trinitarian Catholics who are not regenerate...salvation is by grace through faith, not theological perfection...though we agree that there are salvific/essential vs peripheral issues).

I have explained to you many times in other threads that I am not a Oneness/Modalist. Modalists do not believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit exist at the same time. I know that they do exist at the same time.

It could be taken as admirable that you are in your own way trying to defend me. However, more accuracy on your part is something you should strive to do. In addition, please do not try to belittle my beliefs, and do not try to stop conversation on the truth about God and Jesus.

 

[godrulz]

All you have done here is give your opinion. You have not disproved anything I have said. You have not proved anything that you said.

However, I am glad that you are not here to condemn me.

I am making statements that have been backed up elsewhere, including during 2000 years of church history by the best Spirit-led thinkers in the church. The burden of proof is on you for your fringe views.

 

[dreadknought]

I have explained to you many times in other threads that I am not a Oneness/Modalist. Modalists do not believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit exist at the same time. I know that they do exist at the same time.

Huh? Exist at the same time?

 

[godrulz]

I have explained to you many times in other threads that I am not a Oneness/Modalist. Modalists do not believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit exist at the same time. I know that they do exist at the same time.

It could be taken as admirable that you are in your own way trying to defend me. However, more accuracy on your part is something you should strive to do. In addition, please do not try to belittle my beliefs, and do not try to stop conversation on the truth about God and Jesus.

You have a form of Oneness/modalism whether you like it or not. There are nuanced views within any major view. Arian-like views are not identical to everything Arius taught. JWs are not identical to Unitarians despite sharing a common rejection of trinity, Deity of Christ, in favor of some form of Christ as creature. UPCI talks about one type of modalism, while you have your pet view of it, but both are anti-trinitarian, not Arian. Not all Calvinists agree on all details. Not all Pentecostals agree on everything. You have a minority view that most fits under a form of modalism. Sabellianism is the general category, but modern Oneness is Sabellian-like, not identical to the historical figure on every detail.

 

[godrulz]

Huh? Exist at the same time?

]

This negates hundreds of verses and makes them redundant, contrary to face value reading, etc. GT does not have truth on his side.