Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[Jerry Shugart]

Question:

If the Church is supposed to confess sins (that they are aware of), what were the Gentiles using to make them aware of sin?

Why just Gentiles?

Does Paul not count?

What is Paul speaking of here if he is not talking about examining ourselves in regard to sinful behavior?

"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body" (1 Cor.11:27-30).

And if it not in regard to our sins that we are to "judge ourselves" then what are we to judge ourselves about?

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:31-32).

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Door]

Can't answer the question Jerry?

Anyone else want to try?

 

[tetelestai]

Whenever we sin we are liable for discipline.

“For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.” (Heb. 12:6)

Our choice is between self-judgment and divine discipline. Neglecting 1 John 1:9 plunges the believer into divine discipline. The apostle Paul specifically warns the Corinthians of this principle in a passage about the communion table (1 Cor. 11:28- 32). Before partaking of the communion elements, a believer should “examine” or “judge” himself, synonyms for confessing sins.

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. (1 Cor. 11:28)

Every believer has the right to partake of the communion elements, but each believer is warned never to eat or drink with unconfessed sin in the life.

For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself (divine discipline), if he does not judge the body rightly. (1 Cor. 11:29)

 

[kmoney]

Can't answer the question Jerry?

Anyone else want to try?

How about the law? I know that's the answer you're looking for.

What did Paul use to call out the fornicator in the Corinthian church?

 

[JCWR]

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh; as to babes in Christ. (1 Cor. 3:1)

Since these believers are not spiritual, Paul is unable to speak to or teach them. If they had been filled with the Spirit they would have been able to learn and grow from the doctrine Paul taught. Unfortunately, they are not spiritual and consequently could not advance beyond the very basic doctrine they have learned.

I think you err here. The verse is not teaching that these persons were not spiritual. Instead it teaches that they were spiritual infants. There is nothing here that would support your implication that they were not filled with the Spirit.

As spiritual infants, they were neither able to cope with the adult problems that confronted them nor receive mature teaching from Paul about God.

When we don't grow as believers, several things happen, all of which are bad. First, we lose sight of the real goal that Christ has for us, and that is to become spiritual persons. Then, we look a lot like people who are not Christians. Lostness and spiritual infancy look a lot alike, but no one should make the mistake that the spiritual infant is really lost or even can be lost. Finally, both the individual and the church suffer. Prolonged immaturity creates self-doubt, an extended dependence on leaders, and a bridge for sin in the life of the individual. It is only as we do grow that we are able to face adult problems, minister to others, and overcome temptations.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here is what Door said before the debate started:

I am making a commitment to refrain from personal attacks, and to stick with the text.

This is what he said to me in his latest post:

I think you are pathetic little child, and who lacks integrity, and intelligence.

So much for his commitment!

 

[tetelestai]

I think you err here. The verse is not teaching that these persons were not spiritual. Instead it teaches that they were spiritual infants. There is nothing here that would support your implication that they were not filled with the Spirit.

Hi JCWR

Since you speak Greek and I do not, I trust you will share with us if the following statement is true or not in regards to 1 Cor 3:1?

"The Greek noun nepios does not refer here to a newborn, but is used pejoratively as a sign of contempt for the ignorant or untrained believer".

Thanks

 

[tetelestai]

Here is what Door said before the debate started:

This is what he said to me in his latest post:

So much for his commitment!

Yes, but he did go 2 days before doing so :drum:

If it makes you feel any better, this is what he said about me:

You're a turd.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Door,

Earlier you gave a big "thumbs up" to what voltaire said here:

we should never contemplate whether or not there is sin in our life.

Then you ask:

Question:

If the Church is supposed to confess sins (that they are aware of), what were the Gentiles using to make them aware of sin?

Why would anyone in the church use things to make Christians aware of their sins if "we should never contemplate whether or not there is sin in our life"?

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[tetelestai]

As spiritual infants, they were neither able to cope with the adult problems that confronted them nor receive mature teaching from Paul about God.

For you are still fleshly (carnal). For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly and are you not walking like mere men (imitating unbelievers)? (1 Cor. 3:3)

“Walking like mere men” refers to the motivation of unbelievers. Carnal believers are indistinguishable from unbelievers because both are controlled by the sin nature. Carnal Christians continue to degenerate because they fail to execute 1 John 1:9

Believers are capable of committing any sin and can even remain in carnality for an indefinite period. However, there is no excuse for any Christian to remain in a state of carnality. This is why we must understand 1 John 1:9 before we can maintain spirituality. No one can be spiritual otherwise.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Both voltaire and Door believe that the following is true:

we should never contemplate whether or not there is sin in our life.

Paul says the following as to how the Christian is "to walk and to please God:

"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness"​

According to Paul we should indeed care if sin is in our lifes because keeping the Lord Jesus' commandments are a key to pleasing the Lord. But according to voltaire and Door we should never contemplate whether or not sin is in our life:

we should never contemplate whether or not there is sin in our life.

In His grace,
Jerrry

 

[Da'Saint]

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a permanent relationship, regardless of our carnality or spirituality. The filling of the Holy Spirit is temporary fellowship determined by our carnality or spirituality.

Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God indwells you? (1 Cor. 3:16)

The Holy Spirit indwells the body of every believer to make a temple for the indwelling of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 6:19). This indwelling of the Holy Spirit can never be lost. The indwelling is permanent, dependent upon God’s faithfulness. The filling is temporary, dependent upon our volition.

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit. (Eph. 5:18)

This is a command that involves our choice. God would not mandate a status we already possess. We must choose to be or not to be filled with the Spirit.

No believer has the ability to obey God’s mandates through human power. The Holy Spirit fills up this deficiency by giving us the power to live the Christian way of life. But why, if we are filled with the Spirit at salvation, is this command necessary?

The reason is our old nemesis, the sin nature. The filling of the Spirit is lost when we sin. In carnality we are no longer controlled by the Holy Spirit, but by the sin nature. How can we escape this control? 1 John 1:9

Hi, I have been reading your posts throughout this thread, and I am curious as to who is judging the sin in your life? Are you to confess the sin that "you" are "aware" of, or every idle word, thought, and action that "God" is "aware" of, whether you are "aware" or not?

Is the christian walk a walk from "faith to faith" or from confession to confession?

Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Phm 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

Ro 5:20 And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly:

 

[tetelestai]

Hi, I have been reading your posts throughout this thread, and I am curious as to who is judging the sin in your life? Are you to confess the sin that "you" are "aware" of, or every idle word, thought, and action that "God" is "aware" of, whether you are "aware" or not?

Jerry did a good job of answering that question here:

Hi kmoney,

Let us look at the verse:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

I believe John is saying that if the Christian "confesses" (acknowledges) all of the sins of which he is aware then at that time he is cleansed from "all" unrighteousness.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Da'Saint]

Jerry did a good job of answering that question here:

so this is the ol' God grades on a curve theory? Sin isn't really a sin unless I am aware it is a sin! Is this correct?

 

[dreadknought]

What is everyone's working definition for sin?

 

[kmoney]

What is everyone's working definition for sin?

Good luck getting people to agree on even that. :chuckle: You should read the threads on here about simply defining sin.

Staying in 1 John:
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

so this is the ol' God grades on a curve theory? Sin isn't really a sin unless I am aware it is a sin! Is this correct?

Do you think the Lord expects a Christian to confess sins of which he is not aware?

Da' Saint, let me ask you a question. What do you think is the meaning of John's words here?

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).


When John uses the words "we" and "our" is he not referring to himself? If John believes that he himself should confess his sins why should other Christians believe that they are not to confess their sins?

Just a simple question and I hope that you will answer it.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[dreadknought]

Good luck getting people to agree on even that. :chuckle: You should read the threads on here about simply defining sin.

Staying in 1 John:
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Thanks Kmoney,
So, whoever fails (sin -Strongs NASB #3516) transgresses the law?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What is everyone's working definition for sin?

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness" (1 Jn.3:4; NASB).​

 

[dreadknought]

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness" (1 Jn.3:4; NASB).​

Thanks Jerry,
Fleshing this out. vs 4 contrasting 1 John 3:5 "You know that He appeard in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin."