Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[tetelestai]

What??? How does someone "fail grace" by sinning? That is just stupid. If you are not sinning, you don't need grace.

Not by sinning, by not confessing the sin.

 

[tetelestai]

Your's and Jerry's whole argument is based on the fact that you claim that God's grace fails us. If God's grace did not fail us, then we would not be leaking the Holy Spirit.

I specifically said God’s grace never fails us

 

[Lighthouse]

Not by sinning, by not confessing the sin.

I don't even know where to begin with how wrong this is.

 

[tetelestai]

Unfortunately Tetelestai, you are reducing God's grace to mere sentiment.

The grace of God has a basis, and it is a legal basis. In order for God to show grace to sinners, the legal demands of the Law had to be met and satisfied.

Jesus Christ obeyed all the Law all the time; therefore, His cross work and vicarious death on behalf of His people was acceptable to God. Only on this basis and the legal imputation of His righteousness to those He represented in His incarnation and Mediation, is God' grace bestowed.

You are correct in that grace cannot fail us, but that is because Jesus Christ did not fail to keep all the law. And if He has already fulfilled and kept the Law sinlessly and perfectly on our behalf, there is no reason for us to live under obligation to the Law any longer, but rather we are to walk in the freedom of His grace; rejoicing in His righteousness, not our own.

Nang

Nang other than the “those He represented” part, I agree with everything you say. The “those He represented” part is a limited atonement/unlimited atonement thing, so we won’t bother to get side tracked off of the subject of the thread by discussing that.

We live under grace not the law. The subject of this thread is whether a believer has to confess his or her sins after salvation.

I believe that a believer has to confess his or her sins after salvation in order to “walk in the light”, or be filled with the Spirit.

There are many things a believer needs to do to spiritually mature. Prayer and reading the Bible are other examples. These have nothing to do with faith and faith alone, or adding works to faith, or obeying any type of law.

All believers commit sins. When a believer sins they need to confess the sin in order to get back on the path of spiritual growth.

 

[tetelestai]

I don't even know where to begin with how wrong this is.

Since all you ever do is tell people they are wrong, yet never elaborate as to why, I suggest you start here.

Explain why a believer confessing his or her sins as described in 1 John 1:9 is wrong.

Go ahead, I’m all ears.

 

[Door]

Not by sinning, by not confessing the sin.

Why is there grace for sin, but no grace for not confessing it?

Also, if God does not give grace for not confessing sin, then Jesus died for every sin except the sin of not confessing?

Therefore, the confession cannot be of faith, but only of works.

So, we are made righteous by faith in Christ, but we are kept righteous by the work of confession.

Gotcha!

:sigh:

 

[Door]

Here is a post from Omega that clearly says in principle what Jerry and tetelestai are saying...

1. When a christian is baptised , their sins are washed away

and they are given the Holy Spirit which is the Righteousness of Christ .

2. At that moment ALL their past sins are washed away and they
are Righteous before God --- until they sin mentally or physically

which should happen in about an hour from then.

3. From then on the Christian has to strive to consistently Think good thoughts and do good deeds.

 

[Nang]

I believe that a believer has to confess his or her sins after salvation in order to “walk in the light”, or be filled with the Spirit.

It is the "has to" thinking that is faulty. There is nothing a Christian "has" to do, or even "can do" to earn favor with God. It is when the believer rests totally in what Jesus had to do, and what Jesus did, that one exhibits saving faith, pleasing God.

There are many things a believer needs to do to spiritually mature. Prayer and reading the Bible are other examples.

This is better language. Faith is not passive and the believer actively grows in sanctification. However, even these spiritual activities are attributed to the presence of Christ's Holy Spirit, for the natural man would never willfully pursue holiness or desire spiritual growth.

These have nothing to do with faith and faith alone,

Yes they do. Reading the Bible and praying (hopefully) gives evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit. These kinds of works always accompany regeneration and genuine saving faith that has been gifted by the grace of God.

or adding works to faith, or obeying any type of law.

Obedience should occur out of love for God and desire to live a sanctified, holy life. Obedience should not occur under obligation under law. Two different attitudes; the former exhibiting a faithful and trusting relationship with Christ; the latter showing continued dependence upon one's own flesh and will power to attain righteousness.

All believers commit sins. When a believer sins they need to confess the sin in order to get back on the path of spiritual growth.

All believers have the law of sin and a proclivity to sin, remaining in their members. However, a genuine Christian, born again and abiding in Christ, no longer practices unrepentant sin. (I John 3:9)

Confession of sins is not something one must do, but something every Christian does do, because they have been granted repentance from God. (II Timothy 2:25) Repentance, like exhibitions of faith, are evidence of God's presence and grace.

Christians continually repent and confess sins, not to get saved or to stay saved, but because they have been saved by the grace of God. Christian confession is effect, not cause.

Nang

 

[voltaire]

Door, tell me if im wrong in any of this. a christian should not focus on sin in his life or try to find it so that he can confess it. we are not to deliberately set out to do things that we are convinced are against Gods will. our focus should be on trusting that Christ is in us doing works thru us that God has planned for us beforehand. we are to live in a attitude of liberty, knowing that all thing are lawful but all things are not profitable. we should never contemplate whether or not there is sin in our life. there are times when i think about my past and i relive my actions and thoughts. at those times i become aware of wrong actions and attitudes and i become ashamed and i agree they were wrong. i didnt try to think of those "sins". they just came to me as i was doing what enjoy doing sometimes-- going back over my life.

 

[kmoney]

Hi kmoney,

Let us look at the verse:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

I believe John is saying that if the Christian "confesses" (acknowledges) all of the sins of which he is aware then at that time he is cleansed from "all" unrighteousness.

In His grace,
Jerry

Thanks for answering. :up:

 

[Door]

Door, tell me if im wrong in any of this. a christian should not focus on sin in his life or try to find it so that he can confess it. we are not to deliberately set out to do things that we are convinced are against Gods will. our focus should be on trusting that Christ is in us doing works thru us that God has planned for us beforehand. we are to live in a attitude of liberty, knowing that all thing are lawful but all things are not profitable. we should never contemplate whether or not there is sin in our life.

:thumb:
Hebrews 10:1-2

 

[Door]

Question:

If the Church is supposed to confess sins (that they are aware of), what were the Gentiles using to make them aware of sin?

 

[tetelestai]

Here is a post from Omega that clearly says in principle what Jerry and tetelestai are saying...

Come on door, that isn’t even close to what I have been saying.

First – I do not believe water baptism is necessary for salvation.

Second – At the moment of salvation, all past sins are forgiven. However, one is not righteous towards God.

Third – I have gone out of my way to show that “good deeds” are dead works, and mean nothing to God. When a believer is walking in darkness the believer can only produce dead works no matter how morally good it may appear.

Door, I do not misquote you, I do not understand why you have to constantly misquote me in order to try to make your point.

 

[tetelestai]

Why is there grace for sin, but no grace for not confessing it?

Also, if God does not give grace for not confessing sin, then Jesus died for every sin except the sin of not confessing?

Therefore, the confession cannot be of faith, but only of works.

So, we are made righteous by faith in Christ, but we are kept righteous by the work of confession.

Gotcha!

:sigh:

There is grace for not confessing sins. You still have eternal life. You are still alive God still has a purpose for your life. He wants us to have happiness, inner peace, inner power and production that will count for eternity.

Confession is not a work any more than saying a prayer is a work.

In failing to appropriate the grace of God, you are “snubbing” the Holy Spirit; you are grieving or quenching Him (Eph. 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:19). He is locked up in a little corner; it is impossible for Him to produce in your life. Thus, you are missing all the great blessings of the grace of God.

So the issue becomes the same issue as in Romans, Chapter 8: “choose you which law you will serve.” To serve the law of spirituality means that the sin is dead and isolated, and the Holy Spirit takes over and produces. To serve the law of carnality means that one sin is built on another until you waste away your own life and those around you destroying yourself and them by carnality or reversionism. This does not mean you lose your salvation, but it does mean you give up a lot in eternity.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

we should never contemplate whether or not there is sin in our life.

What is Paul speaking of here if he is not talking about examining ourselves in regard to sinful behavior?

"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body" (1 Cor.11:27-30).​

And if it not in regard to our sins that we are to "judge ourselves" then what are we to judge ourselves about?

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:31-32).​

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Door]

There is grace for not confessing sins. You still have eternal life. You are still alive God still has a purpose for your life. He wants us to have happiness, inner peace, inner power and production that will count for eternity.

Oh yeah right , with half a Holy Spirit, maybe.

Confession is not a work any more than saying a prayer is a work.

Sure it is, no one who prays is so out of fellowship with God, that the Holy Spirit is stumbling around in the dark inside them like a flashlight whose batteries are about to expire.

He is locked up in a little corner; it is impossible for Him to produce in your life.

Oh yes, I have reduced the Holy Spirit of God, to a paraplegic waiting for me to pull a Benny Hinn on Him and release Him from His bondage through my masterful confession!!

You're a turd.

 

[tetelestai]

Maybe if we use Paul and the Corinthians as an example it will be easier to understand.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh; as to babes in Christ. (1 Cor. 3:1)

These Corinthians are believers. “Brethren” refers to anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as Savior and is born into the family of God. Although Paul reprimands them for their carnality, he declares their position “in Christ.”

Since these believers are not spiritual, Paul is unable to speak to or teach them. If they had been filled with the Spirit they would have been able to learn and grow from the doctrine Paul taught. Unfortunately, they are not spiritual and consequently could not advance beyond the very basic doctrine they have learned.

They are “men of flesh,” carnal Christians out of fellowship with God with a stagnant spiritual life. Though these Corinthians are saved they are carnal and wreaking havoc in the church.

If you have ever observed a carnal believer and asked, How can he be a Christian? you have based your judgment on superficial appearances.

“For God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” (1 Sam. 16:7b)

Overt behavior is not the issue in salvation. The only issue in salvation is faith alone in Christ alone. As one matures, however, they will discover the Bible does make a distinction between carnality and spirituality.

Paul virtually insults the Corinthians by calling them “babes.” Paul reminds them they are ignorant of the Christian life because their growth is stunted by carnality.

1 John 1:9 is the first doctrine a new believer must learn to progress spiritually. Shortly after salvation a new believer will sin and lose fellowship with God. Unless the filling of the Holy Spirit is recovered he will not advance in the Christian life. Doctrine cannot be learned or applied in his life. Such was the situation in Corinth.

I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able. (1 Cor. 3:2)

Paul could only give them “milk,” basic doctrine, instead of the solid food of “advanced doctrine”. Carnality impaired their ability to learn and apply even the most basic truths of the Word of God.

 

[Door]

Yeah, right! The crux of being effective for God all comes down to only ONE mention in the entire NT that is the ONLY way to not reduce the Holy Spirit into an ineffective retard. We must become massively introspective, as we take our eyes off of Jesus, and become obsessed with our sins, (that He hung on a cross for hours while his flesh ripped apart), so that we can be pleasing to God by telling Him that we are failing to achieve what He already knew that no man can.

 

[tetelestai]

Yeah, right! The crux of being effective for God all comes down to only ONE mention in the entire NT that is the ONLY way to not reduce the Holy Spirit into an ineffective retard. We must become massively introspective, as we take our eyes off of Jesus, and become obsessed with our sins, (that He hung on a cross for hours while his flesh ripped apart), so that we can be pleasing to God by telling Him that we are failing to achieve what He already knew that no man can.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a permanent relationship, regardless of our carnality or spirituality. The filling of the Holy Spirit is temporary fellowship determined by our carnality or spirituality.

Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God indwells you? (1 Cor. 3:16)

The Holy Spirit indwells the body of every believer to make a temple for the indwelling of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 6:19). This indwelling of the Holy Spirit can never be lost. The indwelling is permanent, dependent upon God’s faithfulness. The filling is temporary, dependent upon our volition.

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit. (Eph. 5:18)

This is a command that involves our choice. God would not mandate a status we already possess. We must choose to be or not to be filled with the Spirit.

No believer has the ability to obey God’s mandates through human power. The Holy Spirit fills up this deficiency by giving us the power to live the Christian way of life. But why, if we are filled with the Spirit at salvation, is this command necessary?

The reason is our old nemesis, the sin nature. The filling of the Spirit is lost when we sin. In carnality we are no longer controlled by the Holy Spirit, but by the sin nature. How can we escape this control? 1 John 1:9

 

[Door]

You are not saved. You have a false god, who is under your control.