Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[tetelestai]

to say a believer cannot be 80% spiritual and 20% carnal is a meaningless statement regarding the state of the christian.
we have 100% of the Holy Spirit at all times, regardless of how we act. there are no carnal christians. there are only christians who dont believe what the bible says about them. it is at those times when the christian doesnt believe what the bible says regarding who they are in Christ that they are by definition, walking according to the flesh. they are not carnal. they commit acts of carnality and have a carnal state of mind but they are not carnal.

When Jesus said, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone . . .” (John 8:7), there were no rock throwers that day, even though the crowd was made up of many self-righteous and religious people. It is quite obvious that every member of the human race has sinned(Rom: 3:23).

Suppose the Lord were to say to us, “Let him who is without sin serve me in the Christian life.” There would be no one qualified for service, and the Lord would have no one on earth. Therefore, God in His grace' has made provision for overcoming sin and the old sin nature, which will dominate and control a believer’s life unless the believer understands the principle of isolating one’s sins. This principle is based on the laws of spirituality and carnality found in Romans 8:2:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

To be “carnal” is temporal. It means to be out of fellowship. It has nothing to do with a believer’s understanding of the Bible. A believer who was saved 5 minutes ago probably doesn’t know too much of the Bible, but can still walk in the light, and can walk in darkness, as does a mature believer, who knows the Bible very well. No one can escape from the old sin nature (not even Jesse Morrell).

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (1 Cor 3:1)

Yes, we have the Holy Spirit 100% of the time, but our souls are either controlled spiritually, or carnally at any given time. We walk in the light, or we walk in the dark. It has to be one or the other. A believer is either one or the other. A believer is either moving forward or backward, but not standing still.

What do you think it means for a believer to not grieve the Holy Spirit, or to squelch the Holy Spirit?

What is the indwelt Holy Spirit doing when a married believer is in the middle of sex with a prostitute (adultery)?

What happens after the adultery?

 

[godrulz]

These issues surrounding sanctification are nuanced (TM) as we wrestle with the relationship between spirit and 'flesh', old vs new life, the resource of the Spirit/Word and the responsibility of man, etc. Great men of God have not definitively resolved these issues.

One can hold to justification by grace through faith and differ on nuanced views of sanctification (I am not denying that there is only one correct view/interpretation, but it is not easy to systematically resolve the issue; we bring our bias to the text or tend to proof text verses that support our view and water down ones that do not).

These men have much in common and are able to dialogue maturely about this important subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Five-Views-Sanctification-Melvin-Dieter/dp/0310212693

(search inside)

 

[Door]

Perhaps he finally just agreed with me?

So then you have always believed that no Christian can be carnal. Is that right?

 

[Door]

When Jesus said, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone . . .” (John 8:7), there were no rock throwers that day, even though the crowd was made up of many self-righteous and religious people. It is quite obvious that every member of the human race has sinned(Rom: 3:23).

And yet John says that there are people who claim they have not sinned.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

you dont stop the work of the Holy Spirit by acts of sin. you stop his work by walking according to the flesh. walking according to the flesh means living like you dont know who you are in Christ.

Here Paul describes what is meant by walking according to the flesh:

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh...Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like" (Gal.5:16, 19-21).​

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[tetelestai]

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (Isa 44:22)

What is the “grace of God” in context? When you confess a sin, when you name it to God, He forgives you. That's all. The sin is blotted out (Isa. 44:22); you are back to being filled with the Spirit. That's grace. None of us earns it nor deserves it.

 

[Door]

Here Paul describes what is meant by walking according to the flesh:

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh...Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like" (Gal.5:16, 19-21).​

In His grace,
Jerry

Way to take verses out of context and remove key verses.

Galatians 5:13

"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another."

Paul reminds them again, that they have been called to freedom. They are free from the Law. They are no longer slaves of sin, but slaves of righteousness (Romans 6). They must not give the flesh an opportunity to put them back under the Law. And they must not put others back under the Law, as has been happening to them by the Judaizers. Instead, they are to serve one another in love, not through the Law. In other words, they have got to stop challenging each other’s behavior and claiming that they are righteous if they do this or that. That is exactly what the son of the bondwoman was doing to persecute the son of the free woman (Galatians 4).


Verses 14-15

"For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another."

If you are going to use the Law against one another, then you are not acting in love, but rather you are preaching another gospel (Galatians 1) (All of this is tied together in the reason Paul is writing to Galatia). Again, when someone starts using the Law to be made perfect, then you are preaching a gospel that is apart from grace. When you accuse others of not being right with God because of their inability to keep the Law, then you will also be found guilty.


“But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”
Galatians 3:22

Verse 16

"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh."

In context to this letter, what does Paul say about the spirit and the flesh?
Let’s look at Galatians 4…

"But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman." So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman."
Galatians 4:29-31

The desire of the flesh is to be justified through the works of the Law. If you walk by the Spirit, you will not try to be justified by the works of the Law.


Verse 17

"For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."

The flesh wants to be justified by the Law, and the Spirit through the promise by faith. They are opposed to each other. You cannot walk in the Spirit and yet try and be justified through keeping the Law.


“Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
Galatians 3:3


Verse 18

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."

Paul makes it clear, you are not under the Law, if you are led by the Spirit. Why put yourself under the yoke of slavery. You began by the Spirit, and you have no relationship with the Law.

If you are going to live under the Law, then the only thing that you can produce are the deeds of the flesh, because the purpose of the Law is to reveal sin.

Verse 19-21

"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

The Law proves that you are guilty of all the things that the flesh will produce. If you are going to live under the demands of the Law, then you will be found a sinner and the penalty is death, and you will not inherit the kingdom of God. The flesh, under the demands of the Law, can only produce sin and death!

 

[tetelestai]

The Law proves that you are guilty of all the things that the flesh will produce. If you are going to live under the demands of the Law, then you will be found a sinner and the penalty is death, and you will not inherit the kingdom of God. The flesh, under the demands of the Law, can only produce sin and death!

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2)

The first law is the law of spirituality, or “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.” “in Christ Jesus” is a reference to positional truth. You must be in Christ before this law can become operative. No one can be spiritual until first of all he is saved. The law of spirituality, which is the filling of the Spirit (Eph. 5: 18), has set us free from another law operating inside us - the law of carnality. This law stifles production, prevents bona fide service for the Lord, and creates misery any time it controls our lives.

This second law is “the law of sin” “the law of the sin nature, and death.” The sin nature has produced spiritual death in the human race since the time of Adam, but when we are born again the production of the sin nature is limited to temporal death, which means to be out of fellowship and therefore useless to the Lord. This law is called “carnality” in 1 Corinthians 3: 1.

In the state of spirituality, the believer is liberated from the domination of the old sin nature. “hath made me free” indicates that this occurs at the point of time when the believer is filled with the Spirit. When a believer is filled with the Spirit, he is spiritual, and he walks in the light (I John 1:7); when a believer sins, he is carnal and walks in darkness (I John 1:6). These two laws are in constant conflict within every believer. For the execution of the Christian way of life, the law of spirituality must supersede the law of carnality.

In Romans 8:3, a third law is introduced: the Mosaic Law, representing in this case human self righteousness trying to keep the Law in order to gain the approval of God. Therefore, it is more than just human self righteousness; it is self righteousness plus legalism.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3)

The Mosaic Law was holy, just and good (Rom. 7:12) and had a definite function under its three codices (moral, spiritual and social); but it could neither save nor provide spirituality. The Law was limited by the presence of the old sin nature.

Jesus Christ, sent by God the Father, not only paid the penalty for sin, but also destroyed the power of the old sin nature by His death on the Cross.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:4)

The believer may have victory over the sin nature as long as he lives under “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.”

 

[Door]

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2)

And do you know why?

The rest of your post ignores the reason why.

 

[tetelestai]

And do you know why?

The rest of your post ignores the reason why.

Because the grace of God never fails us, but we fail the grace of God.

 

[Door]

Because the grace of God never fails us, but we fail the grace of God.

So your answer to the question as to why the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death, is that we fail the grace of God?

Exactly how do you think someone fails grace?

 

[tetelestai]

So your answer to the question as to why the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death, is that we fail the grace of God?

Exactly how do you think someone fails grace?

For starters, they fail to execute 1 John 1:9

 

[tetelestai]

So your answer to the question as to why the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death, is that we fail the grace of God?

You forgot "The grace of God never fails us" part

 

[Door]

For starters, they fail to execute 1 John 1:9

What??? How does someone "fail grace" by sinning? That is just stupid. If you are not sinning, you don't need grace.

 

[Door]

You forgot "The grace of God never fails us" part

Your's and Jerry's whole argument is based on the fact that you claim that God's grace fails us. If God's grace did not fail us, then we would not be leaking the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nang]

You forgot "The grace of God never fails us" part

Unfortunately Tetelestai, you are reducing God's grace to mere sentiment.

The grace of God has a basis, and it is a legal basis. In order for God to show grace to sinners, the legal demands of the Law had to be met and satisfied.

Jesus Christ obeyed all the Law all the time; therefore, His cross work and vicarious death on behalf of His people was acceptable to God. Only on this basis and the legal imputation of His righteousness to those He represented in His incarnation and Mediation, is God' grace bestowed.

You are correct in that grace cannot fail us, but that is because Jesus Christ did not fail to keep all the law. And if He has already fulfilled and kept the Law sinlessly and perfectly on our behalf, there is no reason for us to live under obligation to the Law any longer, but rather we are to walk in the freedom of His grace; rejoicing in His righteousness, not our own.

Nang

 

[voltaire]

Now regarding Galatians 5:16,19-21
now the works of the flesh are manifest: adultery, fornications, all uncleaness etc...
thats talking about the works of the flesh. how can you equate the works of the flesh with walking according to the flesh? one is talking how you think about your relationship to the law and your position in Christ. The Other is talking about what the flesh does and the only thing it does when it is activated. when you put yourself under the law(walk according to the flesh). you activate the flesh and allow it to function.

 

[Door]

I find it interesting that Jerry and tetelestai are going back and forth like a roaring lion looking for verses that condemn Christians in order to bring them back under the yoke of the Law, and in bondage to sin and death. They seriously believe that what makes them righteous, holy, blameless, and filled with the Spirit is not anything Christ has done, but how astute they are at finding fault and confessing them. They are their own mediator.

 

[Lighthouse]

So then you have always believed that no Christian can be carnal. Is that right?

He thinks that a Christian can become carnal, and is therefore no longer a Christian.

 

[voltaire]

So godrulz think once a christian becomes carnal, he is no longer a christian? what happened to the unique sin of unbelief? or does he equate carnality with unbelief?