Paul's style is linear, while John's is often circular. Like Galatians, the context shifts at times, so we must decide where Paul is talking about false vs true gospels, or legalistic Christians vs plain, bad legalists, or where John is talking about believers who sin, or unbelievers who sin. John deals with both issues, so watch the context (I agree to look at the whole book, not just a section).
Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door
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Paul's style is linear, while John's is often circular. Like Galatians, the context shifts at times, so we must decide where Paul is talking about false vs true gospels, or legalistic Christians vs plain, bad legalists, or where John is talking about believers who sin, or unbelievers who sin. John deals with both issues, so watch the context (I agree to look at the whole book, not just a section).
Are you Irish? You are quite feisty.
Confessing that you are a sinner and believing that Christ will cleanse you from all unrighteousness is what all christians do to become saved. any truly saved christian would understand this concept. if a christian community had false teachers sneak in and convince potential converts that they were sinless and that it was possible to live sinlessly, then those that bought into that lie would erroneously think that they were christian. these nominal christians were fellowshipping with true christians and causing much discord im sure.
this setting would make much more sense for john to write verse 9. so the letter is addressed to a church that is mixed with true believers and those who only think they are saved but in reality, they walk in darkness.
this setting would make much more sense for john to write verse 9. so the letter is addressed to a church that is mixed with true believers and those who only think they are saved but in reality, they walk in darkness.
Jerry Shugart
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The old, original MAD guys like Sir Robert Anderson, Charles Baker and J.C. O'Hair understood that those who "believed God," no matter what dispensation and message, received the "gift" of eternal life (Ro.6:23). They also understood that the Lord will not renege and take back any "gift" that He bestows (Ro.11:29). And since only the Lord can give or take eternal life then those who possess eternal life will never lose their salvation.
As far as Bob Hill is concerned, I believe that you are right in regard to his teaching. However, his ideas on the subject of salvation in different dispensations and the application of the Jewish epistles are closer to the teaching of E.W. Bullinger (Acts 28) than it is to Anderson, Baker and O'Hair.
In His grace,
Jerry
I agree with Jerry for the most part.
God disciplines believers when they sin. For the discipline to stop, a believer has to acknowledge the sin, confess the sin, then forget the sin, and move forward.
For those who do not believe in confessing of sins, please explain why God disciplines believers? Also explain how or why the discipline ends?
The confessing of sins has nothing to do with salvation, or judgment, it has everything to do with walking in the light, or walking in darkness as Jerry pointed out.
Once a sin is acknowledged, confessed, forgotten, and the believer moves forward (walks in the light) discipline can no longer be present for the sin. However, consequences of sin may result from a sin for the rest of the believer’s life, but consequences are different from discipline. Discpline continues until the sin is acknowledged, confessed, and forgotten.
God disciplines believers when they sin. For the discipline to stop, a believer has to acknowledge the sin, confess the sin, then forget the sin, and move forward.
For those who do not believe in confessing of sins, please explain why God disciplines believers? Also explain how or why the discipline ends?
The confessing of sins has nothing to do with salvation, or judgment, it has everything to do with walking in the light, or walking in darkness as Jerry pointed out.
Once a sin is acknowledged, confessed, forgotten, and the believer moves forward (walks in the light) discipline can no longer be present for the sin. However, consequences of sin may result from a sin for the rest of the believer’s life, but consequences are different from discipline. Discpline continues until the sin is acknowledged, confessed, and forgotten.
Tetelestai, do you believe God disciplines us to develop character in us? if so, then he would use everything at his disposal to accomplish that goal. he wouldnt just use the occasion of a sinful act to discipline. if you want to be a pro football player, you have to discipline your body thru lifting weights, exercise and healthy eating. you dont lift weights because you are being punished.
if God does indeed discipline, it certainly isnt over sinful acts. its to accomplish a goal in that believer. the sin issue was done away with at the cross. God no longer even considers a persons sins any longer.
if God does indeed discipline, it certainly isnt over sinful acts. its to accomplish a goal in that believer. the sin issue was done away with at the cross. God no longer even considers a persons sins any longer.
Narcissism is very much a trait of legalism.
Can you show how that fits in with the fact that believers are dead to sin? Show where the Bible says God punishes us.
What you are talking about is Christian suffering. Christian suffering is different than discipline. Discipline is to teach, suffering is to grow in character. However, what may be discipline to one believer may be suffering to another believer, and vice versa.
Job is the perfect example of Christian suffering.
God does not punish us. Discipline is not punishment. Discipline is to teach, or correct.
God the Father disciplines His children (believers) the same way a parent disciplines a child. Only a parent who loves a child, disciplines a child.
Door
New member
I am getting close to posting my next post in our debate.
I want to interject something.
I fully agree that God disciplines us, and I may or may not bring that argument into the debate. What is important is that we take the text and not add to it, and that we learn from it what the author intended. I do not believe that discipline has anything to do with the text, nor do I believe that it was on the mind of John when he wrote it.
I believe that John simply needed to reaffirm his relationship with Jesus to those who hear/read his message and that they return to the message that they first heard and not be deceived by those who had disrupted their faith.
I want to interject something.
I fully agree that God disciplines us, and I may or may not bring that argument into the debate. What is important is that we take the text and not add to it, and that we learn from it what the author intended. I do not believe that discipline has anything to do with the text, nor do I believe that it was on the mind of John when he wrote it.
I believe that John simply needed to reaffirm his relationship with Jesus to those who hear/read his message and that they return to the message that they first heard and not be deceived by those who had disrupted their faith.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, (Phil 3:13)
What are those things which are behind? SINS! As soon as you confess a sin, you are commanded to forget it.
“Forgetting” can be accomplished only by believing I John 1:9 and understanding the principle of I John 1:7: “. . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleansing us from all sin.” The blood of Christ refers to the death of Christ on the Cross. The work of the “blood,” is twofold: judicial cleansing at the moment of salvation, and experiential cleansing of the carnal believer after salvation.
How can a righteous God forgive unrighteousness? Because His righteousness was satisfied when the penalty of sin was paid at the Cross. This is the link between 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 1:9. When you simply name your sin, you are citing a sin which has already been judged. So, because of the work of Christ on the Cross, God is absolutely just and fair in forgiving sins.
Once you confess a sin, you put your problem in the hands of the Lord; you have no right to take it back. If you take the sin back and fret over it, you will create self induced misery. To worry about your past sins or to have a guilt complex is to perpetuate carnality.
This is what 1 John 1:9 is all about.
JCWR
New member
Some comments on 1 John 1:1-4, leveraging the Greek, follow.
I like 1 John because, for us Greeks, it is one of the portions of the Bible that many school age children can read very easily. The book is written in what some English speakers may call Dick and Jane Greek. Many beginning Greek students are often tasked with reading 1 John because of the simple Greek used: short, crisp sentences and plain, clear words.
In the opening verse, John announces two clear affirmations: first, that life has its origin in God's character and nature; second, that this life from God has come among us. God is the source of life.
The Greek word John uses in verse 2 to describe the manifestation of the Word is phaneroō , which means to reveal, to become visible, plain, clear. The English word 'phenomenon' comes from this Greek root word. John teaches us that the decision God made which is described as the Word of life has become vivid and clear, personal and knowable.
I find it unusual with John's written style in that in both his Gospel and in this first letter, John withholds the name of Jesus Christ until the close of the letter's prologue. In John's Gospel it is not until John 1:17 that the name of Jesus Christ is revealed to the reader. Yet by then it has become clear that the Logos of which John had written is in fact Jesus Christ The Only Son of God. We see in this letter, John uses the same writing style—it is at the close of the prologue (verse 3) that we encounter the holy name of the Logos of life. Jesus is the Word of life. He is the eternal life known intimately by John, and now we are warmly invited to have fellowship with other disciples of Christ as well as with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
The Greek word translated as fellowship, koinōnia is used in the classical Greek to express very intimate kinds of human relationship such as in marriage. The word's basic root koinos literally literally common, hence communion. It is this interpersonal and encouraging word that John now uses in verse 3. The word's meanings are warm and affirming. Koinōnia is the word for generosity as in Philippians 2:1. It can also be translated with the word participation as in Philemon 1:6. The word may also be translated in its noun form by the word partner or sharer, as in Luke 5:10.
We should not therefore be surprised that John should conclude his prologue in verse 4 with a single sentence sigh: These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
The word joy is a light and whimsical word in the Greek—chara. Even today we Greeks still make use of this word as a greeting. From this root the word charis ('grace') is developed especially by Paul as a key word in his vocabulary of love. There is the sense of surprise within the word chara ('joy') and its companion charis ('grace')—the sense of a gift being given when no one expected it.
In these first four verses, John announces that from before creation, God, who is the source of life, decided to speak that eternal life into the time frame in which we live out our existence. God's breakthrough into our time has indeed happened, and the mystery of this breakthrough is that we have been able to understand and know the core of the mystery. Why? Because at the very center of that mystery is the person Jesus Christ—not life or word as secrets to be decoded, but the Person to be known. The result of our discovery of Jesus Christ is a partnership, a sharing of our life with other human lives and with God the Father and the Son. Finally, this fellowship is so good it is fun!
I like 1 John because, for us Greeks, it is one of the portions of the Bible that many school age children can read very easily. The book is written in what some English speakers may call Dick and Jane Greek. Many beginning Greek students are often tasked with reading 1 John because of the simple Greek used: short, crisp sentences and plain, clear words.
In the opening verse, John announces two clear affirmations: first, that life has its origin in God's character and nature; second, that this life from God has come among us. God is the source of life.
The Greek word John uses in verse 2 to describe the manifestation of the Word is phaneroō , which means to reveal, to become visible, plain, clear. The English word 'phenomenon' comes from this Greek root word. John teaches us that the decision God made which is described as the Word of life has become vivid and clear, personal and knowable.
I find it unusual with John's written style in that in both his Gospel and in this first letter, John withholds the name of Jesus Christ until the close of the letter's prologue. In John's Gospel it is not until John 1:17 that the name of Jesus Christ is revealed to the reader. Yet by then it has become clear that the Logos of which John had written is in fact Jesus Christ The Only Son of God. We see in this letter, John uses the same writing style—it is at the close of the prologue (verse 3) that we encounter the holy name of the Logos of life. Jesus is the Word of life. He is the eternal life known intimately by John, and now we are warmly invited to have fellowship with other disciples of Christ as well as with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
The Greek word translated as fellowship, koinōnia is used in the classical Greek to express very intimate kinds of human relationship such as in marriage. The word's basic root koinos literally literally common, hence communion. It is this interpersonal and encouraging word that John now uses in verse 3. The word's meanings are warm and affirming. Koinōnia is the word for generosity as in Philippians 2:1. It can also be translated with the word participation as in Philemon 1:6. The word may also be translated in its noun form by the word partner or sharer, as in Luke 5:10.
We should not therefore be surprised that John should conclude his prologue in verse 4 with a single sentence sigh: These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
The word joy is a light and whimsical word in the Greek—chara. Even today we Greeks still make use of this word as a greeting. From this root the word charis ('grace') is developed especially by Paul as a key word in his vocabulary of love. There is the sense of surprise within the word chara ('joy') and its companion charis ('grace')—the sense of a gift being given when no one expected it.
In these first four verses, John announces that from before creation, God, who is the source of life, decided to speak that eternal life into the time frame in which we live out our existence. God's breakthrough into our time has indeed happened, and the mystery of this breakthrough is that we have been able to understand and know the core of the mystery. Why? Because at the very center of that mystery is the person Jesus Christ—not life or word as secrets to be decoded, but the Person to be known. The result of our discovery of Jesus Christ is a partnership, a sharing of our life with other human lives and with God the Father and the Son. Finally, this fellowship is so good it is fun!
dreadknought
New member
Isn't Paul putting behind him the ways of the "false circumcision" vs. 2-9 in favor of Christ?
i have to disagree with jerrys latest post. he states the reason for verse 9 is that the believers had accepted the gnostic heresys and had now been made unrighteous. he rejects verse 9 was written as a reminder of how they were saved. instead he insists the readers were now unrighteous sinners in Gods eyes who needed to be cleansed from that unrighteousness. if that were true then johns readers would go to hell if they did not get cleansed from all unrighteousness. how does jerry resolve this serious problem?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Hi voltaire,
So you are saying that the following verses served as a reminder as to how they were saved?:
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).
Why do you think that that would remind them how they were saved since the sinner is born again by the gospel which says nothing about confessing one's sins in order to be cleansed?
Here is the gospel which Peter preached in his first epistle:
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot...Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:18-19,23,25).
Before anyone's sins can be cleansed they must fiorst believe the gospel. And verse 9 is not the gospel nor would it remind anyone of the gospel by which they were saved.
voltaire, do you tell people that in order to be saved that they must first believe the gospel and then they must confess their sins?
In His grace,
Jerry
JCWR
New member
What a sentence is contained in verse 5! God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
This is a forceful and clear parallelism. John tells us what he means and then tells us what he does not mean. Every great positive truth of the Bible has its negative implication. If Jesus Christ is Lord, then I am not Lord. If God is filled with light then He is not filled with darkness.
The word light is used interchangeably by John in this letter and in his Gospel for the word truth. (See John 1:9, John 1:14 and 1 John 1:6.) What John means by 'light' and 'truth' is that his teaching is rooted more in the Old Testament understanding of 'light' and 'truth' than in the Greek philosophical understanding of these concepts. We need to closely examine the way that the teaching about light and truth in both the Gospel of John and 1 John is developed.
In the OT, 'light' has to do with finding the path. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light (Isaiah 9:2). Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path (Psalm 119:105). These texts show the basic connection that is present in the OT between light from God and showing His people the way for their feet. Light is also connected in the OT to an even more fundamental discovery, and that is the discovery of the character and nature of God by His people. For instance, Psalm 27 tells of David's discovery not only of the way, but of God Himself in the midst of David's trial. David had found the face of the Lord. He begins this psalm, The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? (Psalm 27:1). Likewise the text in Isaiah 9 moves from the pathway language to the intensely personal hope, For unto us a Child is born …" (Isaiah 9:6).
The Lord's summation of the great I AM sentences in John's Gospel is also set into this Old Testament way of thinking about light and truth. I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, except through Me (John 14:6). Note that this is the language of the roadway and the language of personal encounter with the Father. We find the way in the truth that is Jesus Christ, and because of that way we find the very source of light and life, who is God Himself. Psalms 27 and 119 are now fulfilled in this encounter with Jesus of Nazareth!
John has the same roadway and interpersonal, encounter mindset in his own thinking as he tells his readers about God. This will be made clear as the verses unfold in 1 John 1:5-10.
John announces the liberating news that God is not only the source of life but also of light, of truth. John dares to commit God to the way of light. God never deceives, misleads, and distorts. There can be no strategy of heavenly deception on God's part, because God is Light and His own character, His own essential nature, rejects such a strategy. God is not the prince of lies but the One who reveals and shows the way. Darkness hides and confuses pathways, but light makes the faces recognizable and the outline of the roadway discernible.
But, and this is important, it is not John who has created this message about God. John tells us that it is the message which he heard from God's speech. John has not really committed God to the way of truth, instead he has announced like a trumpeter this good news about God which God himself has already made known. God has spoken for Himself, and we have learned from the first five verses of 1 John that His speech is the speech of Life and of Light.
John's affirmation is the promise that God's self-disclosure is on the side of truth, and therefore when Jesus Christ is Lord of our life, we then see the road more clearly. Jesus Christ not only shows us who the Father is, He also shows us who we are and where we are. We see better our own faces and we see better the landscape. He is the Light who makes the roadway upon which we live and move and have our being come into focus. As C.S. Lewis once wrote in Miracles: We believe that the sun is in the sky at midday in summer not because we can clearly see the sun (in fact, we cannot) but because we can see everything else.
I believe that one way to test the worthiness of a person's world-view or religious claim is to ask the question: 'Does this world-view bring all of the parts of the puzzle of my life and world together?' Are the separate pieces that make up normal existence integrated so that each is meaningful and in clear focus when seen through the lens of this world-view? Jesus Christ as Lord and center of our lives makes sense of the parts just as He makes sense of the core. This is the characteristic of light. It is like a lamp unto our feet.
This is a forceful and clear parallelism. John tells us what he means and then tells us what he does not mean. Every great positive truth of the Bible has its negative implication. If Jesus Christ is Lord, then I am not Lord. If God is filled with light then He is not filled with darkness.
The word light is used interchangeably by John in this letter and in his Gospel for the word truth. (See John 1:9, John 1:14 and 1 John 1:6.) What John means by 'light' and 'truth' is that his teaching is rooted more in the Old Testament understanding of 'light' and 'truth' than in the Greek philosophical understanding of these concepts. We need to closely examine the way that the teaching about light and truth in both the Gospel of John and 1 John is developed.
In the OT, 'light' has to do with finding the path. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light (Isaiah 9:2). Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path (Psalm 119:105). These texts show the basic connection that is present in the OT between light from God and showing His people the way for their feet. Light is also connected in the OT to an even more fundamental discovery, and that is the discovery of the character and nature of God by His people. For instance, Psalm 27 tells of David's discovery not only of the way, but of God Himself in the midst of David's trial. David had found the face of the Lord. He begins this psalm, The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? (Psalm 27:1). Likewise the text in Isaiah 9 moves from the pathway language to the intensely personal hope, For unto us a Child is born …" (Isaiah 9:6).
The Lord's summation of the great I AM sentences in John's Gospel is also set into this Old Testament way of thinking about light and truth. I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, except through Me (John 14:6). Note that this is the language of the roadway and the language of personal encounter with the Father. We find the way in the truth that is Jesus Christ, and because of that way we find the very source of light and life, who is God Himself. Psalms 27 and 119 are now fulfilled in this encounter with Jesus of Nazareth!
John has the same roadway and interpersonal, encounter mindset in his own thinking as he tells his readers about God. This will be made clear as the verses unfold in 1 John 1:5-10.
John announces the liberating news that God is not only the source of life but also of light, of truth. John dares to commit God to the way of light. God never deceives, misleads, and distorts. There can be no strategy of heavenly deception on God's part, because God is Light and His own character, His own essential nature, rejects such a strategy. God is not the prince of lies but the One who reveals and shows the way. Darkness hides and confuses pathways, but light makes the faces recognizable and the outline of the roadway discernible.
But, and this is important, it is not John who has created this message about God. John tells us that it is the message which he heard from God's speech. John has not really committed God to the way of truth, instead he has announced like a trumpeter this good news about God which God himself has already made known. God has spoken for Himself, and we have learned from the first five verses of 1 John that His speech is the speech of Life and of Light.
John's affirmation is the promise that God's self-disclosure is on the side of truth, and therefore when Jesus Christ is Lord of our life, we then see the road more clearly. Jesus Christ not only shows us who the Father is, He also shows us who we are and where we are. We see better our own faces and we see better the landscape. He is the Light who makes the roadway upon which we live and move and have our being come into focus. As C.S. Lewis once wrote in Miracles: We believe that the sun is in the sky at midday in summer not because we can clearly see the sun (in fact, we cannot) but because we can see everything else.
I believe that one way to test the worthiness of a person's world-view or religious claim is to ask the question: 'Does this world-view bring all of the parts of the puzzle of my life and world together?' Are the separate pieces that make up normal existence integrated so that each is meaningful and in clear focus when seen through the lens of this world-view? Jesus Christ as Lord and center of our lives makes sense of the parts just as He makes sense of the core. This is the characteristic of light. It is like a lamp unto our feet.
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