Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[Door]

:bang:

Every time you get backed into a corner, you try to change the topic.

I haven't changed the topic, you moron.

Everyone here but you knows that.

The truth of what is going on is that you have been found to be a liar, and that answering the questions will incriminate you. If you were not afraid of being exposed as a false teacher, you would have already answered the questions.

Now you are going to just whine and cry with the excuse that you are wasting your time. Grow up, and answer the questions or admit that you have been teaching a false doctrine.

The topic is 1 John 1:7-8

You have sin. Jesus cleanses it.

1. Would you be lying if you said you have been cleansed of sin?

2. Would somone else be lying if they said you still have sin?

3. Would you be lying if you said you still have sin?

 

[Lighthouse]

When does this one time act of confessing one's sins take place? At salvation?

:dunce::duh:

Da'Saint understands the Bible just fine. What no one can possibly understand is how you (and the other moron) can possibly believe that darkness and light can dwell in the same Body.

Darkness dwells in the flesh [body], Christ dwells in the spirit. Our flesh does not dwell in Him, our spirit does. It is our spirit that is the light, not in the darkness, for darkness cannot dwell with light.

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, [Jesus]“I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”[/Jesus]
-John 8:12

[Jesus]I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.[/Jesus]
-John 12:46

Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
-2 Corinthians 6:14

Of course, you capitalized "Body," so I'm assuming you meant, "Body of Christ." But I know that some of the people here are too stupid to catch that, so I thought I'd spell it out for them.

But they probably still won't get it.

Door, this video of 1 John 1:9 is so simple to understand that even you will be able to understand it.

This little girl is probably 6 or 7 years old, yet she understands something you cannot.

Are you kidding me? All she does is sing a song that quotes the verse directly. There's not one single line of exegesis, or even eisegesis, in that entire video.

That is child abuse. Any parent who would put that on a child should have their child taken away from them. That's as bad as what they did in the Jesus Camp movie. Very sad.

Not necessarily. All she did was sing a song that quotes the verse. Maybe she fully understands that she is forgiven, once and for all.:idunno:

:sozo: Please EVERYONE watch the video!!

Do I have to? It's almost ten minutes long.

Question – If one is sinless and perfect, does that mean that person would never die?

Well, Jesus was sinless/perfect and His flesh died.

But there is no second death for those who are perfected in Him.

No, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is alive because of righteousness. We are waithing for the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8

See above.

 

[Da'Saint]

I kinda like this guys take on the topic!


One reason I believe 1 John 1:9 is not directed at Christians but non-believers is because it says "cleanse us from all unrighteousness". That can only happen once in the life of the believer -- when he was born again.

So, it does not make sense for Christians, who are already righteous by the blood of Christ, to again be "cleansed from all unrighteousness", and over and over again, every time they sin. The word "all" used, simply means all.

The moment we believed and confessed Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, we received God's forgiveness for all our sins -- past, present and future!

Colossians 2:13
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Jesus' sacrifice was "once for all". In Hebrews 10, Paul is saying that the blood of bulls and goats could not take away the offerer's sins "once for all", which is why the sinner had to offer animal sacrifices year after year.

Then, he goes on to say how it is different with the blood of Jesus -- that His blood cleanses "once for all", so that we don't have to continuously offer sacrifices (or confessions) to be cleansed, over and over again.

Hebrews 10:2 (NIV)
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

Hebrews 10:10 (NIV)
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

So, if we have to "offer" confessions day after day to stay clean, we are actually regressing into the system of animal sacrifices and insulting the blood of Christ.

Worse, we would be implying that the Jews, who were under an inferior covenant, had it better than us, who are under a superior covenant, since the blood of bulls and goats they offered was good for an entire year, whereas the blood of Jesus we have is good only until the next time we sin!

 

[Door]

Jesus' sacrifice was "once for all". In Hebrews 10, Paul is saying that the blood of bulls and goats could not take away the offerer's sins "once for all", which is why the sinner had to offer animal sacrifices year after year.

Then, he goes on to say how it is different with the blood of Jesus -- that His blood cleanses "once for all", so that we don't have to continuously offer sacrifices (or confessions) to be cleansed, over and over again.

Hebrews 10:2 (NIV)
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

Hebrews 10:10 (NIV)
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

So, if we have to "offer" confessions day after day to stay clean, we are actually regressing into the system of animal sacrifices and insulting the blood of Christ.

Worse, we would be implying that the Jews, who were under an inferior covenant, had it better than us, who are under a superior covenant, since the blood of bulls and goats they offered was good for an entire year, whereas the blood of Jesus we have is good only until the next time we sin!

:up:

 

[tetelestai]

I haven't changed the topic, you moron.

Everyone here but you knows that.

The truth of what is going on is that you have been found to be a liar, and that answering the questions will incriminate you. If you were not afraid of being exposed as a false teacher, you would have already answered the questions.

Now you are going to just whine and cry with the excuse that you are wasting your time. Grow up, and answer the questions or admit that you have been teaching a false doctrine.

The topic is 1 John 1:7-8

You have sin. Jesus cleanses it.

1. Would you be lying if you said you have been cleansed of sin?

2. Would somone else be lying if they said you still have sin?

3. Would you be lying if you said you still have sin?

Your futile attempt to create a paradox isn’t going to work.

Here is a good example of a paradox:
A person who always lies says “I always lie”. The “I always lie” is true, so that would mean he does not always lie. If he said “I always tell the truth”, then that would be a lie because he always lies.

The Bible does not have paradoxes. Your failure to understand the difference between a believers “walk”, and a believer’s “position” in Christ is why the scripture appears as a paradox to you.

 

[Door]

Your futile attempt to create a paradox isn’t going to work.

There is no paradox, and the fact that you think there is proves how unbelievably ignorant you are. You are just afraid. You are a spineless wimp. You have no integrity, and an inability to think logically.

The following is indisputable:

You have sin. Jesus takes your sin away.

1. Would you be lying if you said you do not have sin? No

2. Would someone else be lying if they said you still have sin? Yes

3. Would you be lying if you said you still have sin? Yes

When confronted with this truth, you want to hold on to your lies, and refuse to answer those questions. You do not want to incriminate yourself. You would rather maintain your pride than admit you are wrong.

You see, the Bible says in the following two verses...

1 John 1:7-8

"...if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

These two verses are referencing two different people.

Those who have been cleansed, and those who say they have no sin that needs to be cleansed.

If it was referring to the same person, the person who has been cleansed cannot be lying if he says he has no sin, because he was just told it had been cleansed. He would be lying if he said he still has it, since the truth is he was cleansed.


You are a loser, and until you repent of your bankrupt doctrine, and receive Christ by faith, you will forever be walking in darkness.

Now, before you run off and hide from embarrassment, I want you to make one last post and say...

"My name is tetelestai, and I am not smarter than a fifth grader".

 

[Lighthouse]

Try this one door, this one is a fantastic video, please watch the whole thing.

:bang:

Yeah, that's really awesome, how he contradicted himself.

"And then sacrificing the animal to acknowledge...the FUTURE PAYMENT for that sin by Messiah-to-come."

He just admitted that the animal sacrifices were not payment for sin, and that Jesus sacrifice was. Which contradicts his entire point.:doh:

Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
-James 5:16

I don't see any justification for his parentheses: "[against each other, depends on the situation though]"

How in the world does Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption," mean that the Spirit is not in your soul? How else could you grieve Him, for one? And for another, how is that theory even justified? There's no context to justify it.

As for not being able to see it if I'm too busy lying to myself about how good I am? I'm not good. Not at all. I am not righteous. Not of my own. The only righteousness I have is His. Which He has imputed to me. Nothing more. Also, nothing less.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
-Romans 7:18

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
-Romans 4:5-8

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit.
-Psalm 32:1-2

For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
-2 Peter 1:9

How does that say that one forgot to take the cleansing? It says they forgot that they were already cleansed. What version was this idiot using?

Your works are garbage, even when you are completely cleansed from sin. If you are completely pure, justified, sanctified, etc. your works are still garbage. Your [own] righteousness as filthy rags.

But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.
-Isaiah 64:6

His pastor is wrong.

Wait a minute! I thought He couldn't hear me if there is unnamed sin in me. But then He says He has heard me 24/7 since eternity past.:dizzy:

He was not using the NASB for 2 Peter 1:9.:nono:

Can you do me a favor? Name every single sin you've ever committed? Can you do that?

P.S.
Israel was not saved, because salvation had not yet come. Why do you think He went to the depths to set the captives free?:dunce::duh:

 

[voltaire]

Where Are the verses that mention being filled with the Spirit? there is only 1 that i know of in ephesians.

 

[Lighthouse]

I kinda like this guys take on the topic!


One reason I believe 1 John 1:9 is not directed at Christians but non-believers is because it says "cleanse us from all unrighteousness". That can only happen once in the life of the believer -- when he was born again.

So, it does not make sense for Christians, who are already righteous by the blood of Christ, to again be "cleansed from all unrighteousness", and over and over again, every time they sin. The word "all" used, simply means all.

The moment we believed and confessed Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, we received God's forgiveness for all our sins -- past, present and future!

Colossians 2:13
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Jesus' sacrifice was "once for all". In Hebrews 10, Paul is saying that the blood of bulls and goats could not take away the offerer's sins "once for all", which is why the sinner had to offer animal sacrifices year after year.

Then, he goes on to say how it is different with the blood of Jesus -- that His blood cleanses "once for all", so that we don't have to continuously offer sacrifices (or confessions) to be cleansed, over and over again.

Hebrews 10:2 (NIV)
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

Hebrews 10:10 (NIV)
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

So, if we have to "offer" confessions day after day to stay clean, we are actually regressing into the system of animal sacrifices and insulting the blood of Christ.

Worse, we would be implying that the Jews, who were under an inferior covenant, had it better than us, who are under a superior covenant, since the blood of bulls and goats they offered was good for an entire year, whereas the blood of Jesus we have is good only until the next time we sin!

The other thing is that the video states they sacrificed every time they sinned. And he accuses others of not being able to read the Bible.:doh:

 

[Da'Saint]

Where Are the verses that mention being filled with the Spirit? there is only 1 that i know of in ephesians.

Act. 2:4 and Eph. 5:18

Clarke's definition of "filled with the spirit" in Ephesians.

But be filled with the Spirit]

The heathen priests pretended to be filled with the influence of the god they worshipped; and it was in these circumstances that they gave out their oracles. See a remarkable instance of this quoted in the note on "Lu 9:39", where the case of a Bacchanalian is described. The apostle exhorts the Ephesians not to resemble these, but, instead of being filled with wine, to be filled with the Spirit of God; in consequence of which, instead of those discoveries of the Divine will to which in their drunken worship the votaries of Bacchus pretended, they should be wise indeed, and should understand what the will of the Lord is.

:thumb:

 

[tetelestai]

There is no paradox, and the fact that you think there is proves how unbelievably ignorant you are. You are just afraid. You are a spineless wimp. You have no integrity, and an inability to think logically.

The following is indisputable:

You have sin. Jesus takes your sin away.

1. Would you be lying if you said you do not have sin? No

2. Would someone else be lying if they said you still have sin? Yes

3. Would you be lying if you said you still have sin? Yes



When confronted with this truth, you want to hold on to your lies, and refuse to answer those questions. You do not want to incriminate yourself. You would rather maintain your pride than admit you are wrong.

You see, the Bible says in the following two verses...

1 John 1:7-8

"...if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

These two verses are referencing two different people.

Those who have been cleansed, and those who say they have no sin that needs to be cleansed.

If it was referring to the same person, the person who has been cleansed cannot be lying if he says he has no sin, because he was just told it had been cleansed. He would be lying if he said he still has it, since the truth is he was cleansed.


You are a loser, and until you repent of your bankrupt doctrine, and receive Christ by faith, you will forever be walking in darkness.

Now, before you run off and hide from embarrassment, I want you to make one last post and say...

"My name is tetelestai, and I am not smarter than a fifth grader".

Since Godrulz brought up destiny/rewards earlier, lets use that to try to answer your questions.

Question #1 Would you be lying if you said you do not have sin?

Destiny = no........ Rewards = yes

Question #2 Would someone else be lying if they said you still have sin?

Destiny = yes........ Rewards = no

Question #3 Would you be lying if you said you still have sin?

Destiny = yes........ Rewards = no

Do you see how all the Destiny answers are the same as yours?

Do you see how all the Rewards answers are opposite of yours?

Again, you fail to make the difference between a believer’s “walk” and a believer’s “position” in Christ.

 

[tetelestai]

Where Are the verses that mention being filled with the Spirit? there is only 1 that i know of in ephesians.

Why does there have to be more than one?

Read Here

 

[Door]

Verse please? What verse are you basing your answers on for "rewards"?

Also, my questions are based on real verses, not some imaginary theory you have concocted in your own mind.

 

[Door]

Since Godrulz brought up destiny/rewards earlier, lets use that to try to answer your questions.

Question #1 Would you be lying if you said you do not have sin?

Destiny = no........ Rewards = yes

Question #2 Would someone else be lying if they said you still have sin?

Destiny = yes........ Rewards = no

Question #3 Would you be lying if you said you still have sin?

Destiny = yes........ Rewards = no

Do you see how all the Destiny answers are the same as yours?

Do you see how all the Rewards answers are opposite of yours?

Again, you fail to make the difference between a believer’s “walk” and a believer’s “position” in Christ.

Let's see if your theory works...

Verses 7 & 8 "...if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.""

Let's assume that you and Jerry are correct, and Christians have sin that needs forgiven after they are saved, and that they must walk in the light in order to be cleansed of all sin.

Once they are cleansed from all sin after walking the light and having confessed their sin, are they lying if they say they have no sin?

Yes or No?

 

[tetelestai]

Verse please? What verse are you basing your answers on for "rewards"?

Also, my questions are based on real verses, not some imaginary theory you have concocted in your own mind.

First off, blessings and rewards are for both this life, and in eternity.

For this life: (Philippians 4:9-13)

For eternity: (Eph 2:7) , (Eph 1:18-20)

There are more verses, but for now this should do.

 

[Door]

First off, blessings and rewards are for both this life, and in eternity.

For this life: (Philippians 4:9-13)

For eternity: (Eph 2:7) , (Eph 1:18-20)

There are more verses, but for now this should do.

Those verses have nothing to do with your point about sin effecting rewards.

Please start over and make your point.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I guess Matthew Henry, etc. below all had similar wonderful imaginations, since they all say the same things.

Let's see what Matthew Henry said about 1 John 1:9:

"The apostle then instructs the believer in the way to the continued pardon of his sin. Here we have, 1. His duty in order thereto: If we confess our sins, v. 9. Penitent confession and acknowledgment of sin are the believer’s business, and the means of his deliverance from his guilt. And, 2. His encouragement thereto, and assurance of the happy issue. This is the veracity, righteousness, and clemency of God, to whom he makes such confession: He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, v. 9. God is faithful to his covenant and word, wherein he has promised forgiveness to penitent believing confessors. He is just to himself and his glory who has provided such a sacrifice, by which his righteousness is declared in the justification of sinners. He is just to his Son who has not only sent him for such service, but promised to him that those who come through him shall be forgiven on his account. By his knowledge (by the believing apprehension of him) shall my righteous servant justify many, Isa. 53:11. He is clement and gracious also, and so will forgive, to the contrite confessor, all his sins, cleanse him from the guilt of all unrighteousness." (Matthew Henry, An Exposition, With Practical Observations, of
The First Epistle General of John).

I am sure that you do not agree with what he said here, and neither do I. At least he understands that John is telling Christians to confess their sins. Anyone with the least bit of spiritual discernment can understand that!

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[voltaire]

there has to be more than one verse that mentions being filled with the Spirit if we are going to make a doctrine out of it for christians to live by. the current doctrine of being filled with the Spirit that is taught by many pastors has no scriptural support. it is entirely a theory that is concocted to explain why christians sometimes act carnally and sometimes holy. all ephesians says is to be filled with the Spirit and not be drunk with wine. there is nothing in that verse to support the silly notion that is being taught today. if it were an important doctrine, there would be more than one verse that mentions it.

 

[Da'Saint]

there has to be more than one verse that mentions being filled with the Spirit if we are going to make a doctrine out of it for christians to live by. the current doctrine of being filled with the Spirit that is taught by many pastors has no scriptural support. it is entirely a theory that is concocted to explain why christians sometimes act carnally and sometimes holy. all ephesians says is to be filled with the Spirit and not be drunk with wine. there is nothing in that verse to support the silly notion that is being taught today. if it were an important doctrine, there would be more than one verse that mentions it.

ditto, with confession of sins for forgiveness!!! :think:

 

[tetelestai]

Let's see if your theory works...

Verses 7 & 8 "...if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.""

Let's assume that you and Jerry are correct, and Christians have sin that needs forgiven after they are saved, and that they must walk in the light in order to be cleansed of all sin.

Once they are cleansed from all sin after walking the light and having confessed their sin, are they lying if they say they have no sin?

Yes or No?

Again you are trying to create a paradox.

What you are passively getting at is this: The moment after a believer names his or her sins to God, and is filled with the Holy Spirit, they are back in fellowship with God, and they are walking in the light. At this moment the believer has no unconfessed sin in their life.

If they say “I have no sin”, they would immediately walk in darkness, be out of fellowship with God, and the Holy Spirit would be squelched because they would be boasting of themselves. Remember, let him who boast, boast in the Lord.

So again there is no paradox, or technicality.